Justification for Indulgences?

[FabiusMaximus]

Dear FabiusMaximus,

Yes. I don’t have a lot of time, so I’ll just quote one early Father, St. Ambrose of Milan, as a solid example: "Let, then, nothing call you away from penitence, for this you have in common with the saints, and would that such sorrowing for sin as that of the saints were copied by you…Does anyone think that it is penitencewehre there still exists the striving after earthly honours? It must be broken by groans, interreputed by sights, put aside by prayers…"

Penance is not meant to make one acceptable to God. Acceptability in the eyes of God depends on contrition for sins. But I ask you, and please answer - what truly contrite person would not do penance once he/she realizes the utter gravity of offending God through sin? Do you have a loved one? When you grievously offend or wrong your loved one, do you feel in your heart of hearts that merely “saying sorry” is enough? Do you not feel a need to demonstrate how truly sorry you are, even if only to assuage your guilt? If you can feel that for a loved one on earth, how much more for God in heaven, who deserves our love more than anyone on earth?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I don’t mean to presume, but I do wonder if it is possible that you misunderstand this belief somewhat. It is not saying that little prayer that saves you. It is the faith with which that prayer is said. It is the belief and acceptance of Christ as your Savior that you express with that prayer. It is your acknowledgment that his death on the cross was the price paid for our sins. It is the realization that there is nothing we can do to earn that free gift by our own means, but that it his gift given to us through his grace.

Yes yes I’m perfectly aware. I’m more referring to those who assume that it all ends at that step. Of course it means much more than simply reciting a prayer, I’ve grown up in this environment all my life. Perhaps I misspoke, and I apologize for that.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Hi,
The idea of heaven is that it is a place of perfection. And to enter, one must be perfect
and have paid satisfaction(justice) for their part in wrong doing. For example, a son takes
his father’s car out for a joy ride and damages a quarter pannel. Dad forgives him but
the boy is grounded. In a similiar way we are forgiven but we still owe satisfaction for what
we did.

For more info on indulgences: www.ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/plenary.htm
see www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp​

My will to yours incline, until this selfish part of me, glows with your fire divine. Hymn

Thanks for the links, Fred.

 

[mardukm]

Dear FabiusMaximus,

Thank you for the conversation so far, btw. It’s a blessing to have someone willing to learn about the Catholic Faith instead of coming here just trying to crticise and condemn it.

Absolutely, a truly repentant person would do penance willingly. But my question is that is the penance something that the person can freely opt to not do, or is it mandated?

Penance is within the power of the keys that Christ gave to the Church and handed down in the Apostolic Succession, and through bishops to the priest. Not to do a prescribed penance would be considered a sin of disobedience to this divinely-appointed authority. So I believe one is not free to disregard the prescribed penance. However, it should be noted that the Council of Trent, the best authority on the matter, states that penance is considered SALUTARY (thefreedictionary.com/salutary). So it is mandatory insofar as spiritual holiness is mandatory, but it is not mandatory for salvation itself.

As an aside, always remember (if you are not already aware), that according to the Latin Catholic teaching, all souls in Purgatory are bound for heaven, so their salvation is already guaranteed. Purgatory is for the perfection of souls, and their is no issue of whether they are saved or not.

Do you gain in temporal punishment if you choose to decline on the priest’s offer?

To decline the priest’s penance is a sin of disobedience. It does not add to the temporal punishment of the sin you confessed, but it will obtain more temporal punishment for the NEW sin of pride and disobedience. Now, I am not certain if this evidence of pride and disobedience is considered a mortal sin. My personal opinion is that it is only a “venial” sin and will automatically be forgiven once you actually do the prescribed penance.

But yes, I would absolutely agree that a truly contrite person would want to do something more than simply repent.

For not having done enough good works, perhaps?

I see what you mean. Yes, I can imagine that someone might feel that their forgiveness depends on the doing of the penance. But, as stated, that would be a wrong belief. Every priest has the responsibility to guide penitents in the teaching of the Church on the matter. Penance as such is a necessary part of the Sacrament insofar as evidence of a changed life is necessary in the eyes of God for the sake of Divine Justice. But penance as such is not necessary for the forgiveness of the sin itself.

I feel obliged to comment (as penance for having done this myself in the past when I was not yet Catholic) - non-Catholics often misinterpret and misrepresent Catholic teaching. As an example among many, is the issue of penance. When a non-Catholic comes upon a Catholic - who is particularly plagued with scrupulosity and feels s/he is not forgiven unless she has done penance - the usual response is for the non-Catholic to say, “your Church teaches wrongly. Here is the actual teaching, etc., etc., etc.” Then they begin trying to lead that Catholic out of the Catholic Church. That is both dishonest and immoral. The proper response of a non-Catholic should be - “That is not what your Church teaches, you are indeed forgiven, so be at peace, etc.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Dear FabiusMaximus,

Thank you for the conversation so far, btw. It’s a blessing to have someone willing to learn about the Catholic Faith instead of coming here just trying to crticise and condemn it.

Thank you for responding! I’ve always been sympathetic to Catholicism because, even though I hail from Pentecostalism, Catholicism has been such a powerful influence. My parents both converted from Catholicism, and 90% of my family continues to consider itself Catholic (on both sides). I appreciate the contributions the Catholic Church has given to European civilization. I accept it as a large institution in Italian life. I supported from the beginning the crucifixes in Italian schools (there was a European court order which removed them, which Protestants sadly celebrated, but was later reversed on appeal). Further, I love the Tridentine Mass. The rituals. But I have apprehension when it comes to doctrine. But my personal opinion is that you learn what others believe. If Catholicism is false, it should show up naturally, one shouldn’t need to twist it to do so. I consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ.

Penance is within the power of the keys that Christ gave to the Church and handed down in the Apostolic Succession, and through bishops to the priest. Not to do a prescribed penance would be considered a sin of disobedience to this divinely-appointed authority. So I believe one is not free to disregard the prescribed penance. However, it should be noted that the Council of Trent, the best authority on the matter, states that penance is considered SALUTARY (thefreedictionary.com/salutary). So it is mandatory insofar as spiritual holiness is mandatory, but it is not mandatory for salvation itself.

OK thank you. I think this makes perfect sense.

As an aside, always remember (if you are not already aware), that according to the Latin Catholic teaching, all souls in Purgatory are bound for heaven, so their salvation is already guaranteed. Purgatory is for the perfection of souls, and their is no issue of whether they are saved or not.

To decline the priest’s penance is a sin of disobedience. It does not add to the temporal punishment of the sin you confessed, but it will obtain more temporal punishment for the NEW sin of pride and disobedience. Now, I am not certain if this evidence of pride and disobedience is considered a mortal sin. My personal opinion is that it is only a “venial” sin and will automatically be forgiven once you actually do the prescribed penance.

Perhaps this is the wrong question, but would time in Purgatory, theoretically, be ‘extended’ with this sin of disobedience? Or no since it doesn’t add to temporal punishment?

I see what you mean. Yes, I can imagine that someone might feel that their forgiveness depends on the doing of the penance. But, as stated, that would be a wrong belief. Every priest has the responsibility to guide penitents in the teaching of the Church on the matter. Penance as such is a necessary part of the Sacrament insofar as evidence of a changed life is necessary in the eyes of God for the sake of Divine Justice. But penance as such is not necessary for the forgiveness of the sin itself.

I’m very glad to hear that.

I feel obliged to comment (as penance for having done this myself in the past when I was not yet Catholic) - non-Catholics often misinterpret and misrepresent Catholic teaching. As an example among many, is the issue of penance. When a non-Catholic comes upon a Catholic - who is particularly plagued with scrupulosity and feels s/he is not forgiven unless she has done penance - the usual response is for the non-Catholic to say, “your Church teaches wrongly. Here is the actual teaching, etc., etc., etc.” Then they begin trying to lead that Catholic out of the Catholic Church. That is both dishonest and immoral. The proper response of a non-Catholic should be - “That is not what your Church teaches, you are indeed forgiven, so be at peace, etc.”

Blessings,
Marduk

As I explained above. If Catholicism were false (and I’m suggesting no such thing), then the evidence will pour out on its own. There is no need to misrepresent it.

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set ye free

 

[mardukm]

Dear FabiusMaximus,

Perhaps this is the wrong question, but would time in Purgatory, theoretically, be ‘extended’ with this sin of disobedience? Or no since it doesn’t add to temporal punishment?

AFAIK, nothing is added to “time” in Purgatory for any sin done while one is alive. One always has the means to satisfy the demands of Divine Justice for temporal punishment here on earth. “Time” in Purgatory is only relevant upon one’s death - if one has not yet satisfied Divine Justice fully. For example, suppose one has been away from the Church one’s entire life, and lived a life of sin. At the moment of death, that person sincerely confesses his/her sins before the Lord. He/she is now assured of salvation (will go to heaven), but on the principles we have discussed, this person will have incurred temporal punishment. However, since he/she no longer has the opportunity to satisfy Divine Justice on earth, this will have to be satisfied in “Purgatory.”

As an aside, Divine Justice is satisfied not according to how much punishment one has received for a sin, but rather according to how much a soul has moved towards the perfection/holiness that God demands from His creation. Temporal punishment is never an end in and of itself, but derives its value only according to how far and how much it moves the soul towards the perfection/holiness that God requries.

In some cases, temporal punishment is liable to do the opposite - move someone away from God. It depends on the disposition of the individual. All the Churches recognize this. In the Eastern and Oriental Churches, oikonomia (generally, a relaxation or remittance of temporal punishment, if that is more conducive to the spiritual health of an individual) is applied. In the Latin Catholic Church, they are called indults (note the similarity to indulgences) or dispensations. Different terminologies, but the same idea. In the Latin Catholic Church, it is also the general practice that the determination of appropriate penance is the primary responsibility of the individual.

As I explained above. If Catholicism were false (and I’m suggesting no such thing), then the evidence will pour out on its own. There is no need to misrepresent it.

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set ye free

Amen! Unfortunately, non-Catholics very often learn about Catholicism not through what the Catholic Church herself teaches, but through the lens of other non-Catholics who have an agenda against the Catholic Church. These non-Catholic sources will more often than not take only little snippets of Catholic texts, wrenching them out of their proper contexts, and then create gross caricatures of Catholic teaching to lead people away from the Catholic Church.

Again, I most heartily and humbly commend you for the integrity and honesty you demonstrate by coming here to CAF to learn about the Catholic Faith.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Dear FabiusMaximus,

AFAIK, nothing is added to “time” in Purgatory for any sin done while one is alive. One always has the means to satisfy the demands of Divine Justice for temporal punishment here on earth. “Time” in Purgatory is only relevant upon one’s death - if one has not yet satisfied Divine Justice fully. For example, suppose one has been away from the Church one’s entire life, and lived a life of sin. At the moment of death, that person sincerely confesses his/her sins before the Lord. He/she is now assured of salvation (will go to heaven), but on the principles we have discussed, this person will have incurred temporal punishment. However, since he/she no longer has the opportunity to satisfy Divine Justice on earth, this will have to be satisfied in “Purgatory.”

As an aside, Divine Justice is satisfied not according to how much punishment one has received for a sin, but rather according to how much a soul has moved towards the perfection/holiness that God demands from His creation. Temporal punishment is never an end in and of itself, but derives its value only according to how far and how much it moves the soul towards the perfection/holiness that God requries.

In some cases, temporal punishment is liable to do the opposite - move someone away from God. It depends on the disposition of the individual. All the Churches recognize this. In the Eastern and Oriental Churches, oikonomia (generally, a relaxation or remittance of temporal punishment, if that is more conducive to the spiritual health of an individual) is applied. In the Latin Catholic Church, they are called indults (note the similarity to indulgences) or dispensations. Different terminologies, but the same idea. In the Latin Catholic Church, it is also the general practice that the determination of appropriate penance is the primary responsibility of the individual.

Amen! Unfortunately, non-Catholics very often learn about Catholicism not through what the Catholic Church herself teaches, but through the lens of other non-Catholics who have an agenda against the Catholic Church. These non-Catholic sources will more often than not take only little snippets of Catholic texts, wrenching them out of their proper contexts, and then create gross caricatures of Catholic teaching to lead people away from the Catholic Church.

Again, I most heartily and humbly commend you for the integrity and honesty you demonstrate by coming here to CAF to learn about the Catholic Faith.

Blessings,
Marduk

Thanks for the help, Marduk (and others!).

 

[KathleenGee]

On the sidelines here, Jesus said to do penance for the remission of sins lest we likewise perish…in the Gospel.

Following Jesus involves denying one’s self and picking up the cross to follow Him…

We live in the best place in the world to practice penance!!! Isn’t that great? We have plenty of opportunity now to practice penance and self -denial with all our national debt and collapse of the dollar. Our individualism can be also our greatest obstacle to understanding church discipline. It comes to the point, we don’t want to make the effort to reach out to others. We can practice self-denial and becoming more communitarian, helping one another, and not being strangers to our next door neighbor.

Indulgences can’t be understood well from the outside without experiencing the reality of God’s great power and transcendence in the Mass…where there is no time, except now.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi. I’m aware of the basics concerning indulgences, that they are a remission of temporal punishment for sincerely contrite believers. I’m also aware that they were abused, and that they have been essentially curtailed post-Reformation. But I’m not here to discuss that.

I just would like to know: where did the Roman Catholic Church come up with the doctrine/dogma? Is it in the early Fathers’ writings? It is scriptural?

What about the ‘treasury of merits’?

Thank you.

You appear to be an intelligent human, honestly seeking truthful answers to your questions. The question is being discussed and for your continued investigation so that you may not be led into some unusual belief I have provided you ready references. Any opinion offered should be compared and contrasted with information for Catholic Answers and the Papal encyclical. After you read these and if you have questions then discussion would ensue.

catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6indulg.htm

I am curious though, why do you have the quotation of a rapist and a murderer at the bottom of your postings?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

You appear to be an intelligent human, honestly seeking truthful answers to your questions. The question is being discussed and for your continued investigation so that you may not be led into some unusual belief I have provided you ready references. Any opinion offered should be compared and contrasted with information for Catholic Answers and the Papal encyclical. After you read these and if you have questions then discussion would ensue.

catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6indulg.htm

I am curious though, why do you have the quotation of a rapist and a murderer at the bottom of your postings?

Thanks for the links. I enjoy reading all the information I can get.

Rapist and murderer? It’s quoting John 8:32?

 

[ltwin]

Hi,
The idea of heaven is that it is a place of perfection. And to enter, one must be perfect
and have paid satisfaction(justice) for their part in wrong doing. For example, a son takes
his father’s car out for a joy ride and damages a quarter pannel. Dad forgives him but
the boy is grounded. In a similiar way we are forgiven but we still owe satisfaction for what
we did.

For more info on indulgences: www.ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/plenary.htm
see www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp​

My will to yours incline, until this selfish part of me, glows with your fire divine. Hymn

AFAIK, nothing is added to “time” in Purgatory for any sin done while one is alive. One always has the means to satisfy the demands of Divine Justice for temporal punishment here on earth. “Time” in Purgatory is only relevant upon one’s death - if one has not yet satisfied Divine Justice fully. For example, suppose one has been away from the Church one’s entire life, and lived a life of sin. At the moment of death, that person sincerely confesses his/her sins before the Lord. He/she is now assured of salvation (will go to heaven), but on the principles we have discussed, this person will have incurred temporal punishment. However, since he/she no longer has the opportunity to satisfy Divine Justice on earth, this will have to be satisfied in “Purgatory.”

As an aside, Divine Justice is satisfied not according to how much punishment one has received for a sin, but rather according to how much a soul has moved towards the perfection/holiness that God demands from His creation. Temporal punishment is never an end in and of itself, but derives its value only according to how far and how much it moves the soul towards the perfection/holiness that God requries.

Wasn’t this satisfaction given on the Cross with the death of Christ and the spilling of His blood for all mankind? If we must be perfected in purgatory before we can go to heaven then what position does that give Christ’s atoning work on the Cross? And mardukm, is it correct that you are saying that if one has done what is required of him to satisfy temporal punishment on earth, that he will not have to spend time in purgatory?

 

[mardukm]

Wasn’t this satisfaction given on the Cross with the death of Christ and the spilling of His blood for all mankind?

Yes and Amen.

The Atoning work of Christ on the Cross is not merely an imputation, but a reality that must affect our very nature. I’m sure that as a Pentecostal, you understand this concept. Purgatory is, by definition, not separated from Christ’s atoning work. The Grace of perfection that is derived in “Purgatory” comes from the Cross of Christ itself. It is not part of the Catholic phrenoma to separate Purgatory from the Grace of the Cross. It is a misunderstanding of the Catholic dogma to claim that such a separation exists or can exist.

And mardukm, is it correct that you are saying that if one has done what is required of him to satisfy temporal punishment on earth, that he will not have to spend time in purgatory?

Yes. Anyone has that potential in willful response to the Grace that God gives. Whether on this earth or in the afterlife, it is God’s Grace due to the Cross that is the effective power. It is effective in the life of the Christian by a volitional response from the moment of Baptism. Eastern Christians refer to this constant outpouring of God’s Grace and its work for the sake of holiness as theosis. Western Christians would call it sanctification.

Blessings,
Marduk

[/QUOTE]

 

[KathleenGee]

The more people of Christianity have broken from Christianity as it has been practiced up to the Reformation, and then new denominations break away from more of the 7 sacraments, and then live in different countries far away from the birthplace of Christianity and its development, the harder it is for them to understand our faith.

The Church of Pentecost changed and grew to having its practices defined as society changed.

Catholics follow Christ in that we are to do penance for the remission of sins…that can be overwhelming, and going to confession helps us step onto a more secure and reasonable walk in following Christ and picking up our cross.

People have gained indulgences by going on pilgrimages, praying certain prayers for certain petitions, all for conversion and greater union with God, as well as hope in having a certain prayer answered. We have indulgences today.

Indulgences are more expanded structures for those who want to draw on them for greater drawing on the grace of God. This is all drawn from the sacred mysteries of the Mass, and Christ’s atonement for sin.

We live in times where people are looking at a caricature of abuse of indulgences, a certain German priest was guilty of such and was the one who Luther primarily used as an example of people trying to buy their way into heaven.

I think the Church overdefines by saying indulgences for so many days…I don’t pay attention to that…but instead focus on drawing closer to God and self-denial.

 

[hn160]

Practice of alms giving in relation to indulgences has been curtailed because of the scandal it caused. There is nothing wrong with giving alms and earning an indulgence, but the entire concept was poisoned in the Reformation.

Indulgences are alive and well. Here is list of some indulgences.

So, you are saying that you have to work your way into Heaven, Christ didn’t do enough on the cross.

 

[Celticnovice]

So, you are saying that you have to work your way into Heaven, Christ didn’t do enough on the cross.

See post #18 in this thread…I believe Mardukm did an awesome job addressing that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Nobody is working their way to heaven…sounds like that old Western song, ’ I’ve been working on the railroad…all the live long day…’

The practice of indulgences is for those who are already drawing on the deep graces of the sacraments…these are formal acts of self-denial…so the grace of the Lord can enter in more deeply…

 

[FabiusMaximus]

So, you are saying that you have to work your way into Heaven, Christ didn’t do enough on the cross.

The indulgence isn’t about working your way up to heaven. It is only valid for a sin that has already been confessed and forgiven.

Check out marduk’s brilliant post.

 

[hn160]

The indulgence isn’t about working your way up to heaven. It is only valid for a sin that has already been confessed and forgiven.

Check out marduk’s brilliant post.

So, why do you need indulgences if your sins are confessed and forgiven? That is like saying that Christ’s work wasn’t enough.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

So, why do you need indulgences if your sins are confessed and forgiven? That is like saying that Christ’s work wasn’t enough.

Because if your sins are forigven, then it is saying that Christ’s work was enough. Our discussion was that Christ’s work was sufficient to get to heaven. The Roman Catholic Church has never once denied that.

However the Catholic Church states (and I’m not a Catholic, mind you, so I’m merely explaining their beliefs) that when you sin, even though your eternal punishment is forgiven, you have some residual temporal punishment. This goes in the form of penance - a priest will give you, after confessing, some kind of penance to fulfill it and grow in holiness. It is, essentially, sanctification. Your temporal punishments are what are carried out in Purgatory if they’re not completed on Earth.

If you have a significant penance, which many in the Middle Ages particularly had, you might have to work on it for a long time. Again, your sin is already forgiven, but it’s temporal punishment remains. However, if you show enough remorse over time, or you do a noble act, this could have you granted an indulgence (reduction) on your penance. It’s like getting out of jail early for good behavior. Or better yet - if you’re a murderer and you get a life sentence, and earnestly repent of your deed - you shall be forgiven by God. But you must still serve your sentence to fulfill justice. This is an imperfect analogy, but I think it kind of captures the Catholic belief on sin, punishment, and indulgence.

Indulgences have nothing to do with eternal punishment. You can’t “buy your way to heaven” with them because indulgences cannot forgive or wipe out sins.

I hope any Catholic will come and correct the certain errors I probably made in this.

 

[KathleenGee]

It is Jesus Christ Himself who told us to do penance for the remission of our sins…it is the work of detachment to fight habitual sin, of a willing spirit, but the flesh leading us to sin.

In Luke’s gospel, we are being exhorted by Christ to do penance for our sins lest we likewise shall perish.

People should read the other dimension of knowledge about the Catholic faith. That is our library of the saints, how they strove for holiness, how hard it was, what they suffered to gain Christ’s kingdom…

I don’t want any easy religion because when it is easy, it makes me think of the other…the road to hell is wide and easy. The Church has provided us various structures so we don’t spend so much time trying to figure out penances or enable us to find other forms…what is bound by Peter is bound in heaven.

In times of past, there was a time monks were so, so penitential that their cells became smaller and smaller to the point, they were caskets…where they lay and ready for when the Lord comes.

I would rather draw on an indulgence, praying an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be for the Holy Father after a devotion is completed, that has an indulgence…I am not interested beyond that…and want to pray for our Pope.