Justification is by works and not by works

[De_Maria]

The great debate between Protestants and Catholics is whether justification is by works or not by works. Protestants adamantly deny that works have anything to do with justification. They maintain that justification is by faith alone.

Who is right? Well, I’m Catholic. So, whom do you think I believe? The Catholics.

But, before Luther some very prominent and influential Catholics also said that justification was by faith alone.

I know. You don’t believe me. Ok, let me provide a some examples:

Basil of Caesarea (329-379)
“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”

Ambrose (c. 339-97)
“Therefore let no one boast of his works, because no one can be justified by his works; but he who is just receives it as a gift, because he is justified by the washing of regeneration. It is faith, therefore, which delivers us by the blood of Christ, because blessed is he whose sins are forgiven, and to whom pardon is granted.”

Jerome (347-420) on Romans 10:3
“God justifies by faith alone.” (Deus ex sola fide justificat).

Ok, I think I’ve muddied the waters enough. The question that is probably going through your mind is, "What is it then? Is it by works or not by works?

My answer is, “Yes!” They can both be true.

At this point, I expect Protestant and Catholic alike will quote me the old adage, “Two contradicting statements can not both be true at the same time!” “Therefore, you are wrong!”

Yes, at first glance, the statements are contradictory.

Now, I would like you to ask this question, “How can it be both by works and not by works? How can it be both by faith alone and by faith and works?”

Good question.

How can justification be by works?

Justification is by works, because God does not justify those who do not do His Works. Only those who do the works of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Scripture says:

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
And again:

Romans 2:3-13
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I hope it is clear to all that God does not justify those who do not do His will. God does not justify those who do not keep His Commandments. God justifies only those who do good works.

In that sense, justification is by works.

How can justification not be by works?

Justification is not literally, by our works. We do not stand before the Just Judge and say to God, “No need for you to do anything. I’ve washed myself of all sins and become righteous without any need for your interference.”

No sir! That is what the Pharisee did and Jesus said:

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches:
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because “heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away.” He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

Therefore, in this sense, justification is not by our works. We do not justify ourselves. We do not wash ourselves of our sins. Justification is God’s work.

So far so good? Have I lost anyone? Better yet, has anyone begun to understand what I’m saying?

So, let’s move on to the next question.

Cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

OP Cont’d

How can it be by faith alone?

My first response, for the sake of clarification, is, “Not the Protestant way.”
Protestants deny that works before justification avail anything towards justification. But it is clear to me, from Scripture, that unless someone keeps the Commandments and does the Will of God, he will not be justified. Scripture says:
Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This verse, very clearly tells me, that only those who do the Commandments will be just before God. Therefore, good works avail everything towards justification because without them, we won’t be justified. In fact, unless we keep the Commandments and do the will of God, we will be condemned.

Revelation 22:12-15

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

In what sense then, does faith alone avail for justification?
In the Sacraments. When we approach the Sacraments, we are like Abraham.

Genesis 15:6

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
We approach the Sacraments in an attitude of faith alone and he counts it to us as righteousness. Let me give another example of a Church Father which perhaps will make this clearer:

“Word made flesh, by Word He maketh Very bread his flesh to be; Man in wine Christ’s Blood partaketh, And if his senses fail to see, Faith alone the true heart waketh, To behold the mystery.” (Pange Lingua)

So, it is by faith alone in the sense that God justifies those who believe in His promises. It is by faith alone that we believe that God washes us of our sins in Baptism. It is by faith alone that we believe that God seals us in the Holy Spirit in Confirmation. It is by faith alone that we believe that God forgives our sins in Confession. It is by faith alone that we believe that we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist. It is by faith alone that we believe we become one flesh with our spouses in Matrimony. It is by faith alone that we believe we are healed of our afflictions in the Anointing of the sick. It is by faith alone that we believe we are set aside for the Ministerial work of God in the laying of hands of the Priesthood.

We can’t do any of those things for ourselves. We can’t wash our souls of sin. We can’t seal ourselves with the Holy Spirit. We can’t remove our own sins. We can’t turn bread into the Body and Blood of our Lord. We can’t make ourselves one flesh with our husbands and wives. We can’t heal our own bodies or souls. We can’t make ourselves ministers of God.

Those are God’s works. Not ours. Therefore, it is by our faith alone that we are justified in the Sacraments.

Sooo, how is it not by faith alone? How is it by faith and works?

In the sense that it doesn’t matter how much we claim to believe God’s promises. If we don’t prove our faith by our works, we are not just before God. Illustration:

Let’s say that a man, a non-Catholic, comes to a Catholic Church and asks to be baptized. He comes drunk, he speaks vulgar language and he comes accompanied by two women who are obviously prostitutes.

The priest says, “Well, you’re going to have to change, radically! You’ll have to repent of your sins and your going to have to give up drinking and give up loose women!”

The guy begins to attend RCIA. But the guy never changes. He says he believes but he keeps living the same lifestyle.

The point here is not whether or not the priest will allow him to be baptized. The point here is that, regardless of whether he is baptized, he will not be justified. Scripture is clear:
Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In that sense, it is not by faith alone. Only those, who by faith do the works of God, only they will be justified before God:

James 2:24

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And so, it is both by works and not by works. It is both by faith alone and faith and works.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[boomerang]

The great argument - Faith or Works? Here’s my take, for what it’s worth: What our Lord really wants for us is to do the Father’s will. What is His will? Simply put, to love God, and to love one another. Where do we get the strength and motivation to do His will? By our faith. Our works perfect our faith, and our faith perfects our works.

When Jesus was told, “your mother and brethren are outside” He replied, “who are my mother and brothers? Those who do the will of my Father are my mothers and brothers”.

Our goal is to do the will of the Heavenly Father, and faith is the vehicle that enables us to do His will. The Father’s will is mostly about good works. Faith without works is not only dead, but is actually merely a “fan club”. Jesus did not suffer and die to start the Jesus Fan Club. He wants us to DO THINGS. WORKS. :twocents:

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

The quotes are explained here.

Some of the scholastics used the term “faith alone” referring to someone being saved–but it was generally in the context of baptism of desire, they did not exclude works as an instrument of justification.

As far as Abraham is concerned God said He blessed Abraham BECAUSE of Abrahams commandment keeping/works.

 By Myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;  and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.'--Genesis 22:16-18

And the LORD appeared unto him, and said: 'Go not down unto Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of. Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father;  and I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands; and by thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves; because that Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.'--Genesis 26:2-5

 

[fhansen]

As Trent says faith is the root and foundation of our justification, as a first response to grace, which initiates it all. To say that we’re saved by faith means that we’re saved via faith, as the first proper step in our justification. So faith doesn’t equal justice, as if that’s all God wanted, rather faith must lead on to justice. This is because our justice or righteousness must be real, we must be truly changed into the beings God created us to be in order to be considered just. Righteousness is not merely imputed to the believer IOW. Instead it’s a work of God in us, and one we must cooperate with. Faith is critical in this because it reestablishes the communion between God and man that was shattered at the Fall so He may begin this work in us. Man’s justice can be defined by the three virtues: faith, hope, and love, with love being the greatest. And love by its nature necessarily works, which is why Scripture tells us we’ll be judged by such criteria as found in Matt 25:31-46.

 

[Hawkiz]

Enjoyed your usage of the language to frame the eternal Catholic teaching of ‘both/and’ rather than ‘either/or’. As a promoter of unity among all Christians, I think this can go a long, long way towards tearing down the man-made walls that divide us. I thank you for the discussion.
The Catholic Church is often bashed over the head from those not in total union with Her with the accusation that She teaches ‘works-based justification’. And I see many Catholics who have not been catechized well enough to refute this…your explanation serves both the Catholic and the non-Catholic alike by demonstrating through Scripture how the Church has reached Her position that it is BOTH faith and works that our Lord desires; as well as demonstrating in modern language how the two are forever intertwined in that one cannot truly have one without the other. Our separated brothers and sisters may still seek to argue about which ‘must’ come first, thereby ‘winning’ the argument, but St. Paul encourages us not to bicker over such things. As Catholics, we should all seek to gain a better understanding of ‘both/and’ and demonstrate this to others, Christian or not. The Truth here can not and will not fail: the Church stands with Truth…it is up to us to convey it in a way that others can comprehend. I thank you again.

And, I for one would ask that you take your post directly to you bishop. Allow him to study it. And ask his permission that it be used to evangelize and seek unity. This still stands as the great commission of the Church: to go forth and make disciples of all nations. Humbly seeking out our separated brethren and searching for common ground on one of the largest issues that divides the followers of Christ (justification) is a wonderful way to apply our faith in action with love to this very topic.

Peace in Christ

(With your permission DeMaria, I should like to copy your explanation and take it to MY bishop and ask for his approval that I may utilize it in my mission locally to develop greater unity among Christians)

 

[Hawkiz]

Enjoyed your usage of the language to frame the eternal Catholic teaching of ‘both/and’ rather than ‘either/or’. As a promoter of unity among all Christians, I think this can go a long, long way towards tearing down the man-made walls that divide us. I thank you for the discussion.
The Catholic Church is often bashed over the head from those not in total union with Her with the accusation that She teaches ‘works-based justification’. And I see many Catholics who have not been catechized well enough to refute this…your explanation serves both the Catholic and the non-Catholic alike by demonstrating through Scripture how the Church has reached Her position that it is BOTH faith and works that our Lord desires; as well as demonstrating in modern language how the two are forever intertwined in that one cannot truly have one without the other. Our separated brothers and sisters may still seek to argue about which ‘must’ come first, thereby ‘winning’ the argument, but St. Paul encourages us not to bicker over such things. As Catholics, we should all seek to gain a better understanding of ‘both/and’ and demonstrate this to others, Christian or not. The Truth here can not and will not fail: the Church stands with Truth…it is up to us to convey it in a way that others can comprehend. I thank you again.

And, I for one would ask that you take your post directly to you bishop. Allow him to study it. And ask his permission that it be used to evangelize and seek unity. This still stands as the great commission of the Church: to go forth and make disciples of all nations. Humbly seeking out our separated brethren and searching for common ground on one of the largest issues that divides the followers of Christ (justification) is a wonderful way to apply our faith in action with love to this very topic.

Peace in Christ

(With your permission DeMaria, I should like to copy your explanation and take it to MY bishop and ask for his approval that I may utilize it in my mission locally to develop greater unity among Christians)

 

[Jim_Baur]

De Maria

Can you write your statement in just one sentence?

Is this what the one sentence would be? "We are justified by the works of God that we do?

Thanks!

I believe you have said it correctly, thanks!

Where have you read this before, if it is not original?

THANKS!

I have always believed Justification is made up of love and faith.

THANKS!

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate **(“thorax”),15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate**(“thorax”) of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

Galatians 5: 6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working (“energeo”) through love.

Isaiah 59: 17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate, and the helmet of salvation on his head; he put on the garments of vengeance and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.

 

[Jim_Baur]

De Maria

Could you list the passages for the Bible for this doctrine?

THANKS

Just the passages without the commentary.

THANKS!

 

[Jim_Baur]

De Maria:

I think this says what you are saying, what do you think?

This is in St. John’s Gospel chapter six!

Father’s work, believe in One sent by Him (He does the WORK)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

This is my opinion: We are grace Fully saved by that faith which continues through God willed works unto death.

Grace to save must be continual–it can’t be interrupted by a state of mortal sin immediately prior to death for salvation to happen.

Grace continues through “God willed” works. Man cannot do his own works outside of the will of God and merit heaven.

“Faith alone” doesn’t make sense–the only way for it to be alone is for it to be interrupted by mortal sin–that results in Hell.

Some might ask–what about someone who has a deathbed conversion. What “God willed” works would that person do? Simply accepting death and dying in God’s Mercy in trust with Him would be a “God willed” work.

The reason the devil came up with the notion of “faith alone” was so that people wouldn’t worry about dying in a state of mortal sin–that’s not to say that such people would never be repentant–only that they wouldn’t worry about always being in a state of grace. They would figure that God would save them because of their past faith.

They would look at initial faith as a discrete saving event which could never be revoked. Since they were initially saved by faith and consequently did do “God willed works” because of that faith–they would erroneously believe that they would necessarily either always continue to do “God willed” works or if they did die immediately after committing sin that God would take them to heaven anyway!

In other words there was no such thing as mortal sin and faith was only an instantaneous discrete event–kind of like branding of cattle.

This is quite appealing because it makes salvation EASIER. One doesn’t have to worry about going through a cathartic process like confessing a mortal sin to a priest.

The devil is quite glad that people don’t worry about dying in a state of mortal sin–he lets them believe the fiction of faith alone and then takes them to Hell.

Of course it isn’t quite as simple as that. The person has to commit mortal sin which is possible for ALL because all can violate the natural law which is written on each man’s heart. And only God who perfectly knows the human heart can perfectly make that judgement.

God is merciful. The invincibly ignorant will not be sent to Hell. God does not judge against people for things that they simply do not know.

I think that Martin Luther did not like the struggle of having to always be in a state of grace and not of mortal sin. Faith alone “freed” him from that he thought–salvation was easier–and that is why many people were attracted to the notion.

Salvation is not an easy process but it is not impossible. Jesus said “My yoke is light”.

Through the sacraments we are given the grace to remain in a state of grace and avoid mortal sin. We may of course commit venial sin but that does not damn us to Hell.

The Catholic counterpoint to once saved always saved are Catholics who believe that they never or hardly ever commit mortal sin. If they die in a state of mortal sin then Both sets of people wind up in the same Hell!

Satan’s goal is to put someone in a state of mortal sin and for them to be in that state when they die–if he can do that then that soul goes to Hell.

It really is that simple and the reason that people are attracted to faith alone is that it denies that reality and makes everything easier.

The Protestants are right though when they say that no one can “earn” heaven. That is true. Salvation is a gift. But Catholics believe that. Catholics believe as St. Thomas Aquinas says that if we do not raise an impediment to grace and commit mortal sin then that saving race will continue through not our works–but God’s works and if that happens all the way to our death then we will be saved.

Faith alone that does not continue is the easy way and results in Hell. Faith that continues through God willed works may be the hard way but it results in eternal life.

 

[Jim_Baur]

De Maria

I think you are correct!

 

[JSSD]

This is a cool thread. I’ve had the tab open on my Safari since I saw it, but haven’t gotten to digest it until today. (Sorry)

Faith without works is not only dead, but is actually merely a “fan club”. Jesus did not suffer and die to start the Jesus Fan Club. He wants us to DO THINGS. WORKS. :twocents:

Coming from a Lutheran background, the bolded part is what I was taught. I really didn’t think Lutherans (in particular) and Catholics were very far apart on this. So close, in fact, I’d consider it semantics.

Do you actually have faith if you aren’t willing to act on it? But what is the part that actually saves? I don’t know if it matters - if you have faith, you’re presumably doing works.

But, despite being Catholic now, I’m still not comfortable with the underlined part. I like that above several have pointed out keeping commandments and loving others.

When I did my first confession, I was told to do a good work. This is one thing I was NOT attracted to for Catholicism. What work is good enough? Something nice for a friend? What if I would’ve done it anyway? Does it count? I’m still not comfortable with this as a concept - go and do a work.

This is my opinion: We are grace Fully saved by that faith which continues through God willed works unto death.

Grace to save must be continual

I really like this part.

The next part (and I apologize for the snipping! NO intent to change content - just to get at my own little things that pick at me, personally)….is a part I’m also still uncomfortable with. The “mortal sin” concept.

–it can’t be interrupted by a state of mortal sin immediately prior to death for salvation to happen.

This is quite appealing because it makes salvation EASIER. One doesn’t have to worry about going through a cathartic process like confessing a mortal sin to a priest.

The devil is quite glad that people don’t worry about dying in a state of mortal sin–he lets them believe the fiction of faith alone and then takes them to Hell.

Satan’s goal is to put someone in a state of mortal sin and for them to be in that state when they die–if he can do that then that soul goes to Hell.

What if I don’t get a chance to confess to a priest?
What if I’m living in a remote part of the world and simply do not have that access, and yet I am truly sorry and have asked God, directly, for forgiveness? Does that not work?

I think that Martin Luther did not like the struggle of having to always be in a state of grace and not of mortal sin. Faith alone “freed” him from that he thought–salvation was easier–and that is why many people were attracted to the notion.

It really is that simple and the reason that people are attracted to faith alone is that it denies that reality and makes everything easier.

And this part was re-arranged to go together, but I’d say “Maybe.” Even Probably. Few were as strict on their own sins as Luther, who would reportedly whip himself. So, I doubt he was seeking an easier way. The problems I have [edit: with the Lutheran faith] which led me to Catholicism aren’t this, though.

It almost sounds like when we paint protestants with this brush, it gets at the pre-destination / pre-determination argument. I was taught you still had to truly be sorry and ask of forgiveness. Just not to a priest.

Faith alone that does not continue is the easy way and results in Hell. Faith that continues through God willed works may be the hard way but it
results in eternal life.

But again do you have faith if you believe faith alone and don’t act upon it? No. So, I can’t agree with the first sentence.

Please push back where I have more learning to do, though! This is a subject which I felt pretty good about (as a Lutheran) and has been more difficult for me (as a Catholic). Good discussion, one of interest to me.

 

[Hawkiz]

This is a cool thread. I’ve had the tab open on my Safari since I saw it, but haven’t gotten to digest it until today. (Sorry)

Coming from a Lutheran background, the bolded part is what I was taught. I really didn’t think Lutherans (in particular) and Catholics were very far apart on this. So close, in fact, I’d consider it semantics.

Do you actually have faith if you aren’t willing to act on it? But what is the part that actually saves? I don’t know if it matters - if you have faith, you’re presumably doing works.

But, despite being Catholic now, I’m still not comfortable with the underlined part. I like that above several have pointed out keeping commandments and loving others.

When I did my first confession, I was told to do a good work. This is one thing I was NOT attracted to for Catholicism. What work is good enough? Something nice for a friend? What if I would’ve done it anyway? Does it count? I’m still not comfortable with this as a concept - go and do a work.

I really like this part.

The next part (and I apologize for the snipping! NO intent to change content - just to get at my own little things that pick at me, personally)….is a part I’m also still uncomfortable with. The “mortal sin” concept.

What if I don’t get a chance to confess to a priest?
What if I’m living in a remote part of the world and simply do not have that access, and yet I am truly sorry and have asked God, directly, for forgiveness? Does that not work?

And this part was re-arranged to go together, but I’d say “Maybe.” Even Probably. Few were as strict on their own sins as Luther, who would reportedly whip himself. So, I doubt he was seeking an easier way. The problems I have [edit: with the Lutheran faith] which led me to Catholicism aren’t this, though.

It almost sounds like when we paint protestants with this brush, it gets at the pre-destination / pre-determination argument. I was taught you still had to truly be sorry and ask of forgiveness. Just not to a priest.

But again do you have faith if you believe faith alone and don’t act upon it? No. So, I can’t agree with the first sentence.

Please push back where I have more learning to do, though! This is a subject which I felt pretty good about (as a Lutheran) and has been more difficult for me (as a Catholic). Good discussion, one of interest to me.

First off, welcome to Catholicism! I pray that you will find the fullness of Truth that being Catholic promises.

And I still love DeMaria’s posts. The posts above use the language in such a way as to tear down the barriers between Christians on this subject.

I have found that this topic all comes down to: What IS faith? What does it MEAN to have it?

As to your first question: ‘Do you actually ‘have’ faith if you aren’t willing to act on it? And which part does the saving?’ We are already getting down to the nitty gritty about what faith IS. And here is what I love about the explanation that DeMaria provided…it is neither and both. Neither because it remains that God does all of the saving. Both because our response of faith (spiritual) and works (corporal or worldly) are both what are revealed to us Scripturally as to the response that God expects. Short answer: We are adopted sons and daughters of God; and we want to show our Father that He was ‘justified’ in adopting us; so we ‘work’ to demonstrate our thankfulness, love and faithfulness to Him.

I too have struggled with ‘what work is good enough?’. In the end, I try to do two things with this: 1) Trust my confessor. And 2) Stop viewing doing good works as equal reparations for my sins. There is no guidebook that says ‘lying to your parents can be made up for by 2 hours of community service’. I have to remember that Jesus conquered sin and took mine with Him to the Cross. So they are already ‘made up for’ if you will. My doing a good work is a simple way that I can demonstrate to Jesus and the world that I recognize what He did for me, and I am grateful. In that way, it helps me forgive myself and remove the personal guilt I may feel for my sins.

What if you can’t get in front of a priest? Great question. Answer: all venal sins are forgiven at every Mass, and can also be forgiven simply by asking God to do so…in the prayer of contrition or otherwise asking God to forgive you. Mortal sins? Those typically do require verbal confession to a priest as they are cutting us off from God. (Scripture supports this concept too). In your deserted island scenario, the Church would say that if you confessed directly to God, were truly repentant and asked to be forgiven, it would be done. So yes, it can count to do it that way…but how often are we in that scenario? I once had genial and mortal sins expressed to me like this: venial sins are like giving yourself paper cuts: they hurt, they bleed and they can scar, but they don’t kill us. Mortal sins are like cutting your jugular. It too hurts, bleeds and (if treated and healed) will scar…or (if not treated and allowed to heal) it can kill us.

So. You are correct in understanding that if you have faith and do nothing with it, it is unlikely you really have the faith you think you have. Thus, just as James tells us, faith without works isn’t really faith at all…

Hopefully I didn’t muddy the waters too much for you,

Peace in Christ

 

[Jim_Baur]

I believe De Maria’s ideas are correct.

I, as a teacher and student, would love to have a teaching from the Magisterium on it.

I, as a normal lay person, could use as much documentation as possible.

If De Maria has already given the official teaching, I missed it–SORRY!

THANKS!

 

[57Bill]

OP Cont’d

How can it be by faith alone?

My first response, for the sake of clarification, is, “Not the Protestant way.”
Protestants deny that works before justification avail anything towards justification. But it is clear to me, from Scripture, that unless someone keeps the Commandments and does the Will of God, he will not be justified. Scripture says:
Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This verse, very clearly tells me, that only those who do the Commandments will be just before God. Therefore, good works avail everything towards justification because without them, we won’t be justified. In fact, unless we keep the Commandments and do the will of God, we will be condemned.

Revelation 22:12-15

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

In what sense then, does faith alone avail for justification?
In the Sacraments. When we approach the Sacraments, we are like Abraham.

Genesis 15:6

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
We approach the Sacraments in an attitude of faith alone and he counts it to us as righteousness. Let me give another example of a Church Father which perhaps will make this clearer:

“Word made flesh, by Word He maketh Very bread his flesh to be; Man in wine Christ’s Blood partaketh, And if his senses fail to see, Faith alone the true heart waketh, To behold the mystery.” (Pange Lingua)

So, it is by faith alone in the sense that God justifies those who believe in His promises. It is by faith alone that we believe that God washes us of our sins in Baptism. It is by faith alone that we believe that God seals us in the Holy Spirit in Confirmation. It is by faith alone that we believe that God forgives our sins in Confession. It is by faith alone that we believe that we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist. It is by faith alone that we believe we become one flesh with our spouses in Matrimony. It is by faith alone that we believe we are healed of our afflictions in the Anointing of the sick. It is by faith alone that we believe we are set aside for the Ministerial work of God in the laying of hands of the Priesthood.

We can’t do any of those things for ourselves. We can’t wash our souls of sin. We can’t seal ourselves with the Holy Spirit. We can’t remove our own sins. We can’t turn bread into the Body and Blood of our Lord. We can’t make ourselves one flesh with our husbands and wives. We can’t heal our own bodies or souls. We can’t make ourselves ministers of God.

Those are God’s works. Not ours. Therefore, it is by our faith alone that we are justified in the Sacraments.

Sooo, how is it not by faith alone? How is it by faith and works?

In the sense that it doesn’t matter how much we claim to believe God’s promises. If we don’t prove our faith by our works, we are not just before God. Illustration:

Let’s say that a man, a non-Catholic, comes to a Catholic Church and asks to be baptized. He comes drunk, he speaks vulgar language and he comes accompanied by two women who are obviously prostitutes.

The priest says, “Well, you’re going to have to change, radically! You’ll have to repent of your sins and your going to have to give up drinking and give up loose women!”

The guy begins to attend RCIA. But the guy never changes. He says he believes but he keeps living the same lifestyle.

The point here is not whether or not the priest will allow him to be baptized. The point here is that, regardless of whether he is baptized, he will not be justified. Scripture is clear:
Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In that sense, it is not by faith alone. Only those, who by faith do the works of God, only they will be justified before God:

James 2:24

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And so, it is both by works and not by works. It is both by faith alone and faith and works.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I can’t find much to disagree with here. Reminds me Psalm 1 1-3

 

[JSSD]

First off, welcome to Catholicism! I pray that you will find the fullness of Truth that being Catholic promises.

And I still love DeMaria’s posts. The posts above use the language in such a way as to tear down the barriers between Christians on this subject.

I have found that this topic all comes down to: What IS faith? What does it MEAN to have it?

As to your first question: ‘Do you actually ‘have’ faith if you aren’t willing to act on it? And which part does the saving?’ We are already getting down to the nitty gritty about what faith IS. And here is what I love about the explanation that DeMaria provided…it is neither and both. Neither because it remains that God does all of the saving. Both because our response of faith (spiritual) and works (corporal or worldly) are both what are revealed to us Scripturally as to the response that God expects. Short answer: We are adopted sons and daughters of God; and we want to show our Father that He was ‘justified’ in adopting us; so we ‘work’ to demonstrate our thankfulness, love and faithfulness to Him.

I too have struggled with ‘what work is good enough?’. In the end, I try to do two things with this: 1) Trust my confessor. And 2) Stop viewing doing good works as equal reparations for my sins. There is no guidebook that says ‘lying to your parents can be made up for by 2 hours of community service’. I have to remember that Jesus conquered sin and took mine with Him to the Cross. So they are already ‘made up for’ if you will. My doing a good work is a simple way that I can demonstrate to Jesus and the world that I recognize what He did for me, and I am grateful. In that way, it helps me forgive myself and remove the personal guilt I may feel for my sins.

What if you can’t get in front of a priest? Great question. Answer: all venal sins are forgiven at every Mass, and can also be forgiven simply by asking God to do so…in the prayer of contrition or otherwise asking God to forgive you. Mortal sins? Those typically do require verbal confession to a priest as they are cutting us off from God. (Scripture supports this concept too). In your deserted island scenario, the Church would say that if you confessed directly to God, were truly repentant and asked to be forgiven, it would be done. So yes, it can count to do it that way…but how often are we in that scenario? I once had genial and mortal sins expressed to me like this: venial sins are like giving yourself paper cuts: they hurt, they bleed and they can scar, but they don’t kill us. Mortal sins are like cutting your jugular. It too hurts, bleeds and (if treated and healed) will scar…or (if not treated and allowed to heal) it can kill us.

So. You are correct in understanding that if you have faith and do nothing with it, it is unlikely you really have the faith you think you have. Thus, just as James tells us, faith without works isn’t really faith at all…

Hopefully I didn’t muddy the waters too much for you,

Peace in Christ

Thank you for all this!
I still (and I’m sure will for years) wrestle with the mortal/venial. Likewise with the island scenario. There is obviously a world of variety between the island and church every day. So, where is the line drawn? (Edit: And that is taking a tangent from the OP’s excellent point, so we don’t have to address it here!)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

*13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.*

And still both faith and works fall short if they lack love.

It truly baffles me the Faith Alone incongruity (Other than James 2:24 ) when I read this passage. After a faith that can move mountains sounds like a very strong faith… and without love, it’s nothing.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

As long as James 2:24 is in the bible–justification will never be by faith alone.

 

[fhansen]

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

And still both faith and works fall short if they lack love.

It truly baffles me the Faith Alone incongruity (Other than James 2:24 ) when I read this passage. After a faith that can move mountains sounds like a very strong faith… and without love, it’s nothing.

Love is what man’s justice consists of, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are-and this is also why James 2 as well as Matt 25:31-46 make sense as presenting criteria we’ll be judged by. Faith must lead to love or else it’s worthless. This is how faith justifies us. And this is how the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31 is fulfilled, where God truly becomes the God of man again and begins His work in us, of placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds. Because “Love fulfills the Law”. And this all begins with faith.