Justification / Sanctification

[Verita]

But in the Catholic Church, we believe it is a process.

My husband pointed something out to me the other day. He asked me “Why did Jesus rise from the dead on the third day?” Surely Jesus was God and could have risen again the moment after his death. Why wait? Is there anything he needed to do that he couldn’t have done in a moment? Of course not. And yet for some reason he did wait 3 days. We may never know why, but I believe it demonstrates that our own salvation leading to our own resurrection is also a process, not something that happens in a moment.

 

[MariaG]

My husband pointed something out to me the other day. He asked me “Why did Jesus rise from the dead on the third day?” Surely Jesus was God and could have risen again the moment after his death. Why wait? Is there anything he needed to do that he couldn’t have done in a moment? Of course not. And yet for some reason he did wait 3 days. We may never know why, but I believe it demonstrates that our own salvation leading to our own resurrection is also a process, not something that happens in a moment.

I had never heard of it put like that. That is nice:thumbsup: . I will remember it next time I try to explain this to someone. I know there will be those who still disagree, but it is another thing to help explain the “Catholic” mindset and interpretation.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[gracelife]

While I am certainly not a KJV “onlyist”, I think the KJV has a particular strong and clear translation concerning this parable. :bible1: Matthew 25.14 - 30

And KJV, not under copyright.

Great point with the parable!
Will chew on that a bit.

Does the church believe, the place here is purgatory or hell?
cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If purgatory, then we are saved, but punished/cleansed for not doing good.

Hell, would say mean we were not saved to begin with because we did not “do”.

As for Ephesians, this refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or “legal works”. If one continues on in scripture to read verse ten, we see that when we become a new creation in Christ, it goes hand in hand with good works. Not works of the law, but good works or fruit.

Epheshians 2:8-10
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

See now, I’ve read that as “created in Christ Jesus to do good works”, but not that we do them to be saved, rather because we are saved and God planned that we’d do good works, thus we do good works.

Will read on over at Scripture Catholic.

 

[mikeledes]

God gives us grace that empowers to do those works that are pleasing to Him and by which we shall be judged. When the rich young man asked Jesus what must he DO to inherit eternal life, Jesus did NOT say “Just have Faith.” Nor did he correct Him by saying, "You don’t do anything for salvation for you are not saved by works. Rather, he said, keep the commandments. We receive grace so that we can do good works, but if we fail to do them we will be accountable.

 

[Verita]

He became sin for our sins.

How? Why?

Now, obviously, the reason for the discussion is:
I’m not sure what I believe regarding “faith working in love”
OR
I can do nothing, God did it all through Christ’s atoning sacrifice and His gifts of faith & grace. The faith, the grace are all from God, it is a gift, why would I need to do anything else? He gave it to me.

I’ve said before that God is our parent. I’d like to use another illustration this time from Karl Keating’s book Catholicism and Fundamentalism. (paraphrased) God is like parents who pay for their child’s college tuition. It’s free. The child doesn’t have to contribute a cent. However, because they are giving their child this wonderful gift, they want him to do a few things in return. One, get decent grades. Two, don’t party too much. Three, write home every week. Now, does this make the gift any less free? No, but it does mean that the child has to be responsible with his gift and not abuse it or else it might be revoked. That’s a pretty good idea of how God wants us to handle our justification.

Basically, why do we need to do anything else? Because that’s the way God wants it, the way he established it. Jesus demonstrates it with his teachings and parables (like Maria’s excellent example) over and over. Another good one to read is Matthew 25 the section on the last judgement. In it Jesus judges us not based on how strongly we believed, but on what we did with our belief.

How do Catholics explain the “not of works”, in Ephesians 2:8-9?

Maria gave an excellent explanation. When Paul condemns “works” he’s referring specifically to Jewish Law. He does this all over the place because it was a real problem with the early Christians who came out of Judaism and wanted to keep following those laws.

When a Catholic talks about “good works” what it really means is just basically doing the right thing with every choice you make, every action you take. Doing what Jesus told us to do. And that in verse 10 is what Paul encourages. (You gotta love how protestants never bring up that verse.)

Verita, what do you believe Christ did for us?

I believe that Christ became the perfect, unblemished sacrifice to atone for our sins. When we offer his sacrifice up to God for our sins, they are forgiven. In this way, we can be cleansed of our sin so that we can take our place in the family of God.

 

[gracelife]

My husband pointed something out to me the other day. He asked me “Why did Jesus rise from the dead on the third day?” Surely Jesus was God and could have risen again the moment after his death. Why wait? Is there anything he needed to do that he couldn’t have done in a moment? Of course not. And yet for some reason he did wait 3 days. We may never know why, but I believe it demonstrates that our own salvation leading to our own resurrection is also a process, not something that happens in a moment.

Interesting Verita.

Jesus tells us why the third day here
Sign of Jonah - Matt. 8:38-41

 

[Verita]

Interesting Verita.

Jesus tells us why the third day here
Sign of Jonah - Matt. 8:38-41

Well, Jesus wasn’t copying Jonah. The Jonah story happened to foreshadow Jesus’ death and resurrection. God, being omnipotent and omnipresent and generally outside of time, peppers creation and the history of men will all sorts of things that point to him. Jesus’ sacrifice is present in all times and places. If He had decided to rise in 5 days, Jonah would have been down there for 5.

 

[MariaG]

And KJV, not under copyright.

Great point with the parable!
Will chew on that a bit.

Does the church believe, the place here is purgatory or hell?
cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If purgatory, then we are saved, but punished/cleansed for not doing good.

Hell, would say mean we were not saved to begin with because we did not “do”.

That would be hell. Purgatory is not for punishment but for cleansing “for nothing unclean shall enter heaven”.

In the Catholic theological view, it would not mean that one was not saved to begin with. Otherwise the Grace would not have been given and accepted in the first place. It would mean that one accepted the Saving Grace of Christ, but then later rejected it of their own free will.

Our free will never ceases to exist, even after we accept the saving Grace of Christ, we can choose to turn our back on Him.

See now, I’ve read that as “created in Christ Jesus to do good works”, but not that we do them to be saved, rather because we are saved and God planned that we’d do good works, thus we do good works.

Will read on over at Scripture Catholic

I think this is a common misunderstanding. That if one does not “naturally” do the good works, that we are doing them in order to be saved. Not true. I mean even if God planned for us to do the good works, we still could choose to say no, understanding that saying no to the good works that God planned for us to do, is saying no to Christ and separating us from Him to one extent or another. God may make available the Grace to do these things but it is always up to us to accept that grace.

This I think reflects the Catholic view of free will that is always present even after salvation as well as the theological implications of original sin in the Catholic teachings.

And Happy reading . In the end, even if you do not agree with the Catholic position, I hope you will be able to see how we do in fact believe our position to be fully in harmony with Scripture and in fact to be the correct interpretation of scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[gracelife]

How? Why?

Was referring to Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

Yes, I worded that very poorly. Sorry to confuse.

I’ve said before that God is our parent. I’d like to use another illustration this time from Karl Keating’s book Catholicism and Fundamentalism. (paraphrased) God is like parents who pay for their child’s college tuition.

Great illustration!

Another good one to read is Matthew 25 the section on the last judgement. In it Jesus judges us not based on how strongly we believed, but on what we did with our belief.

Now, Matt. 25 is very much to the point!

Maria gave an excellent explanation. When Paul condemns “works” he’s referring specifically to Jewish Law. He does this all over the place because it was a real problem with the early Christians who came out of Judaism and wanted to keep following those laws.

I know, but in Ephesians he is speaking to the Gentiles. He does give the example of the law however and how they were cut off.

And that in verse 10 is what Paul encourages. (You gotta love how protestants never bring up that verse.)

It is not ignored, just interpreted differently.

Not all protestants. Please do not lump them together, their beliefs vary. Remember many who are non-Catholic simply believe what their pastor has taught them or some tele-evangelist . I so feel for those who are led astray and not seeking to see if what is said is ‘so’. Know what I mean?

Let’s pray God’s grace will lead them to seek truth.

I believe that Christ became the perfect, unblemished sacrifice to atone for our sins. When we offer his sacrifice up to God for our sins, they are forgiven. In this way, we can be cleansed of our sin so that we can take our place in the family of God.

How do we offer up his sacrfice? How are we cleansed of sins?

I’m thinking, it’s through God’s grace that we receive forgiveness, through the sacraments He instituted.

You know, the other thought that comes up that some will say:
Christ died on the cross, for all sins, of all people, of all time. If this is so, then why do we need the sacraments. That is, if Christ already took care of it at the cross, why do I need the sacraments to fix the sins I commit.

I am a mess aren’t I? :yup: (don’t answer that!)

 

[gracelife]

Well, Jesus wasn’t copying Jonah. The Jonah story happened to foreshadow Jesus’ death and resurrection. God, being omnipotent and omnipresent and generally outside of time, peppers creation and the history of men will all sorts of things that point to him. Jesus’ sacrifice is present in all times and places. If He had decided to rise in 5 days, Jonah would have been down there for 5.

yes, isn’t it wonderful how God does this throughout scripture!

 

[Verita]

Was referring to Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

Yes, I worded that very poorly. Sorry to confuse.

What I was trying to get at was whether or not to you believe Christ actually became guilty of our sins when he was crucified. I’ve known many a protestant who believed just that and I now think it couldn’t be farther from the truth. As I said, he was a pure, unblemished sacrifice. He was also God, and God cannot be guilty of sin.

[quilty]
Now, Matt. 25 is very much to the point! [/quilty]

Yes, you can’t get more graphic than that.

It is not ignored, just interpreted differently.

Not all protestants. Please do not lump them together, their beliefs vary. Remember many who are non-Catholic simply believe what their pastor has taught them or some tele-evangelist . I so feel for those who are led astray and not seeking to see if what is said is ‘so’. Know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. Until recently I was a protestant myself. I realize it may be a bad idea to generalize so, but I honestly have never heard a protestant refer to this verse.

Let’s pray God’s grace will lead them to seek truth.

I’m not usually given to random exclaimations, but…

How do we offer up his sacrfice?

Through the Mass.

How are we cleansed of sins?

First, through Baptism. Then, through confession.

I’m thinking, it’s through God’s grace that we receive forgiveness, through the sacraments He instituted.

Absolutely.

You know, the other thought that comes up that some will say:
Christ died on the cross, for all sins, of all people, of all time. If this is so, then why do we need the sacraments. That is, if Christ already took care of it at the cross, why do I need the sacraments to fix the sins I commit.

Contrary to popular misconception, the sacraments aren’t something the Church invented to fulfill those roles. The Sacraments are the Sacraments because God (Jesus) gave them to us as the preferred method for accepting and applying his Grace in our lives. He has given us a process, not to come between us and him, but to give us a clear path to Him.

I am a mess aren’t I? :yup: (don’t answer that!)

I don’t think that at all. I think you’re asking very good questions and you’re on the right track to finding the fullness of truth.

 

[gardenswithkids]

How do we offer up his sacrfice? How are we cleansed of sins?

I’m thinking, it’s through God’s grace that we receive forgiveness, through the sacraments He instituted.

You know, the other thought that comes up that some will say:
Christ died on the cross, for all sins, of all people, of all time. If this is so, then why do we need the sacraments. That is, if Christ already took care of it at the cross, why do I need the sacraments to fix the sins I commit.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb 15:8) We offer up the sacrifice of Jesus in Mass. Please note, Mass doesn’t “repeat” His sacrifice as some accuse us of doing. His sacrifice is eternal, and time touches eternity at Mass.

Christ instituted Mass and the sacraments as ways to distrubute His grace. We call these “sacramental graces”. (God is not restricted to only work through the Sacraments–He can pour forth His grace in any way He pleases. Those who don’t have access to the sacraments, still have access to God’s grace.) Jesus gave us the sacraments as outward signs of His grace, and He deposited the grace He won for us in them. It’s like having a limitless treasury of grace, and He gives all that our souls can hold.

We need the sacraments because we need the salvation Jesus won for us–the grace in the sacraments is the grace that Jesus won for us on the cross. I need the sacraments because need Jesus’ redemptive grace applied to me. The sacraments are ways that we apply His grace personally.

 

[MariaG]

…I know, but in Ephesians he is speaking to the Gentiles. He does give the example of the law however and how they were cut off…

I take out this snippet of your post. There is a good article of Jimmy Akin directly to this point.

It basically is saying that even though Catholics say that these works referred to by Paul are the Works of the Law, like he talked about in Romans, even if it is good works it and not the works of the Law, there is no contradiction to Catholic teaching.

This is because in Ephesians the Greek used a past tense when referring to salvation. This means if Paul is talking about good works, he means that good works will not give us our initial salvation. And this is Catholic teaching that good works have nothing to do with ones initial salvation.

The Council of Trent states: “And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

So even if you choose to disagree with the Catholic interpretation that these “works” referred to by Paul are works of the Law and prefer the Protestant interpretation that these are “good works”, there is still nothing in that interpretation that contradicts the Catholic teaching of faith and works since due to the original Greek and tense, has to be refering to ones initial salvation and does not address our present or future salvation as other parts of Scripture do. So even IF one chooses to have a different interpretation of Works (ie good works vs. works of the Law), it still in no way contradicts Catholic teaching of faith working in love.

As shown above in the quote from James Akin’s article from the Council of Trent, Catholics do not teach in any way shape or form that works have ANYTHING at all to do with ones initial salvation.

Here is a link to the article. Very short and easy to understand.

Not By Works by James Akin from the archives of *This Rock. *

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Sorry about this but there are just so many good articles on this. This has always been a place where Protestants do not actually understand what Catholics teach and so much has been written.

I post this in the hopes that one of the explanations will finally give you the “aha” moment of understanding.

And this article (although I did not quote a ECF below), specifically refers to Early Church Fathers to show that the Early Church understood and interpreted scripture when it comes to this issue as the Catholic Church does. Which brings up the issue that if there is a conflict in interpretation do you choose to believe those that offer their interpretation 1500 years after the fact or those who were taught by the apostles? Who is more likely to understand what Jesus meant, those taught by the apostles or those 1500 years later?

From CA Library Reward and Merit
Paul tells us: “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

In the second century, the technical Latin term for “merit” was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for “reward.” Thus merit and reward are two sides of the same coin.

Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Specifically to the idea of this
Good works increase the righteousness we are given at justification and please God, who promises to give us supernatural rewards on the last day, including the gift of eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10).

RyanL has a really good analogy of a puppy. At least I think it is good

Your parents (God) gives you a puppy (salvation). But you are responsible for feeding this puppy. If you feed the puppy, the puppy gets bigger and stronger. You are not responsible for the puppy growing. Your parents even gave you the food to feed the puppy. You can’t make the puppy grow nor do you have the money or ability to provide the food for growth. But if you had not feed the puppy, the puppy would have died.

This is what happens will us. God gives us our salvation. He even gives us the grace to help our faith live and grow. He does it all. But we are still the ones that have to choose through our own free will to do something with that grace, or just let it die. This is faith working in love.

God Bless,
Maria*

 

[Elzee]

This is how I’ve come to understand justification / sanctification. Maybe this will help. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

We are initially justified and sanctified through baptism. “Justified” meaning we are now in a ‘right’ relationship with God, we are his adopted child and infused with His grace. “Sanctified” meaning we are also holy, cleansed from all sin.

We can do no thing to earn this initial justification - it is a free gift from God given to us in baptism.

We must now use this gift in order to continually grow up as His children, in the image and likeness of Christ. The more we live our life in cooperation with and obedience to God, the more Christ-like we become. Our capacity and desire for living our lives for Him increases and this pleases Him - we are using the talents He gave us (see the post on Matt 25 below). It’s not that our ‘initial justification’ didn’t “take” - it means that as we grow up as children of God, we increase our capacity to love and serve Him. I compare it to a baby. A baby is obviously a full-fledged member of his family. But as he grows up and learns to love and understand and sacrifice his wants for the good of his family, his capacity to contribute to and love his family grows.