Justification - Trying to Clear Up Confusion

[Linkowski]

We are experiencing all the usual difficulties in discussing this topic. One of them is your inconsistency in defining faith. Here is what you described it as initially:

Fair enough. For an adult, I wont grumble with that definition. But then, when asked to clarify what faith is by another poster you added…

If I am being too nitpicky forgive me, but in one definition faith merely amounts to a “turning of the heart” but in your second, it involves, additionally, “(turning) from sin”. Unless I am mistaken, it is the concept of justification as an ongoing process that constitutes the great divide between Catholicism and Protestantism. For us to have meaningful discussion of the issue, you need to iron out precisely what your definition of faith is and what it’s relationship to our Justifaction is, not only during the “initiation” into the life of Christ, but what it’s relationship is also to the abiding life in Christ.
Either way, if we focus on “loving one another” out of love for God then this discussion wont amount to anything terribly significant.

Repentance is moving from one slavemaster to another…I have a new Lord…I recognize that His law is good. I am no longer depending upon the law to deliver me apart from the Spirit of God. You are speaking of sanctification…which, again, positional sanctification happens at salvation as well. BUT, progressive sanctification is what you speak of…this is a life of purification. As we go through life, sin/impurity comes to the surface through trials and circumstances. As we sin, we repent and get it right with God and move on (this is a picture of the purification of precious metal - heat is added, the dross comes to the surface, and then is removed form the surface to yield a more pure product)…this is part of being a Christian. Those who are not experiencing this cannot have assurance that they are being saved.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[Linkowski]

Just a quick note of observation…

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by Grace alone, not Faith alone. Something the Catholic Church has always taught

If you look at the structure… We are saved by Grace, through faith, apart fro works

What does this sentence say saves us? Grace (We are saved by Grace)
Is there anything we can do to earn that grace? No (apart from works)
Do we need to have faith though? Absolutely… (Through faith)

Grace is a free gift of God. We cannot do anything to earn that grace. But Grace alone is a far cry from Faith alone.

Also, Romans 3:
What are the works of the Law? Things like not eating certain meats, what to do when you have an infection, types of celebrations, etc. In other words, Things required by Jews, not required by Christians.
So yes, we are saved by faith, apart from works of the old Jewish law.

This statement however is NOT talking about ALL works.

(this logic also applies to romans 4 when it says the man who has faith but does not works is justified)

Taken one step further. Of course we need to be saved by faith apart from works of the law. If you submit yourself to part of the law, you submit yourself to ALL of the law, and Christ sufferings amount to nothing.

Hope that helps

In Christ

Any work that you look at as a means of law…mere external obedience to a law is a stumblingstone and you make Christ of none effect to yourself.

 

[heisenburg]

Peace to you in Christ Link…

2 questions…

A Yes or No will suffice as these are just yes or no questions

As a Christian…

1. Are you suppose to offer up a dove anytime you commit a sin?
2. If you see a man on the street hungry and naked, are you suppose to do what you can to help him? (by the way, please do not respond with ‘If you’re a Christian, you will want to’… this is a non answer.)

In Christ

 

[Linkowski]

Peace to you in Christ Link…

2 questions…

A Yes or No will suffice as these are just yes or no questions

As a Christian…

1. Are you suppose to offer up a dove anytime you commit a sin?
2. If you see a man on the street hungry and naked, are you suppose to do what you can to help him? (by the way, please do not respond with ‘If you’re a Christian, you will want to’… this is a non answer.)

In Christ

 

[Bishopite]

Just a quick note of observation…

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by Grace alone, not Faith alone. Something the Catholic Church has always taught

If you look at the structure… We are saved by Grace, through faith, apart fro works

What does this sentence say saves us? Grace (We are saved by Grace)
Is there anything we can do to earn that grace? No (apart from works)
Do we need to have faith though? Absolutely… (Through faith)

Grace is a free gift of God. We cannot do anything to earn that grace. But Grace alone is a far cry from Faith alone.

Also, Romans 3:
What are the works of the Law? Things like not eating certain meats, what to do when you have an infection, types of celebrations, etc. In other words, Things required by Jews, not required by Christians.
So yes, we are saved by faith, apart from works of the old Jewish law.

This statement however is NOT talking about ALL works.

(this logic also applies to romans 4 when it says the man who has faith but does not works is justified)

Taken one step further. Of course we need to be saved by faith apart from works of the law. If you submit yourself to part of the law, you submit yourself to ALL of the law, and Christ sufferings amount to nothing.

Hope that helps

In Christ

Good point here. Why do so many Protestants try to lump all works together as though they are the same. When God gives us the grace to have the faith, to do the works ALL of that is from GRACE. Paul who wrote Romans and Corinithians wrote in 1 Cor 3:11-15…
"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. "

Clearly there are works that are of gold, silver, precious stones. These types of works are good works which will not be burned up on judgment day because they were done for the love of God for His glory.

And their are bad works that are wood, hay, and straw.
These works will be burned up on judgement day because they were works not for the glory of God but for our own self glory.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We are saved by Grace intiated Faith continuning through God Willed works.

Works of the law and man intitated good works are not God willed works. what’s so hard to understand about that?

And if Abraham was indeed justified on at least three different occasions then once only justification is a crock, too!

And the proof that we are saved by faith continuning througGod willed works is manifestly evident in Abraham offering issac–it wasn’t just his initital faith that justified him but faith that continued through til the point that he was raising his arm to slay Isaac as a sacrifice to God–this was the evidence of not only the Initital faith which inititally justifies but continuing faith which also justifies.

See the faith has to be continuing or we have no free will.

And just because one ghas initital faith doesn’t mean that continuing faith will Always follow–most of the time yes–but not always.

When it doesn’t follow–when we raise an impediment to God’s grace mortal sin is the result.

Yes floks there is such a thing as mortal sin regardless of what Luther or the Protestants say–and it can entail more than just apostacy as some Arminian Protestants might say.

Bottom line: if we cooperate with God by not raising impediments to his grace and let his greace continued–Not through good works or works of the law that we might inititate–but through His god willed works–such as Abraham did with Issac then the CONTINUAL faith until death in a state of that grace will save us!

So see–Catholics don’t save themselves–any works inititated by them doesn’t save them but cooperation with initital faith that God inititatwes through grace and cooperation with that grace continuing through God-willed works–yes that does save them.

It requires God all the way through–his soverignty is never violated–it is by His grace–and God lets man cooperate in it by the exercise of freedom of will.

In others words salvations is never an Instanteous only event–it is a process of God working in man’s soul–doing All the work–while still paradoxically letting man cooperate!

Protestants are right to criticize any Catholic that would do a good work of his own inititation to try to earn favcor with God for man cannot save himself.

On the other hand it would be wrong to think that many good works that might appear to be of a catholic’s inititation are simply of hiw own inititation.

If the catholic is in a state of grace and is praying unceasingly and offering all his life–not just his spiritual life–but his ordinary earthly life to god–that Catholic will do good worrks without any thought wahtsoever about doing them.

That is true living in the spirit and that Is letting God continue his grace intitated faith in that indidivual Through God willed works!

The real difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics know the truth of mortal sin and have a means to deal wqith it–Protestants don’t–and that puts their souls in danger of Hell!

It is the same for Catholics. Die in a state of mortal sin and Hell is the result.

The whole process of Grace Iititated Faith Continuing Through God Willed works is what saves.

What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Linkowski]

Peace to you in Christ Link…

2 questions…

A Yes or No will suffice as these are just yes or no questions

As a Christian…

1. Are you suppose to offer up a dove anytime you commit a sin?
2. If you see a man on the street hungry and naked, are you suppose to do what you can to help him? (by the way, please do not respond with ‘If you’re a Christian, you will want to’… this is a non answer.)

In Christ

Number 1 – No I would not

Number 2 – I would do that by God’s grace. However, many folks out there are banking on this type of thing as a means of their salvation. It is on a laundry list of things to show God so that He will give them eternal life. BUT…does it glorify God? Faith is what glorifies God and those deeds that are done therein. What matters is motivation.

There are two wrong ways to meet the commandments…

1. Rebellion
2. Using them as a ladder to heaven

This is establishing your own righteousness rather than submitting yourself to the righteousness of God.

NOW…will be be judged according to our deeds? Yes and that is the context of your “number 2”. However, if it was done for your own glory (self-righteousness), God knows. These things are to be done for His glory…IN HIS NAME.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Calvinator]

Also, Romans 3:
What are the works of the Law? Things like not eating certain meats, what to do when you have an infection, types of celebrations, etc. In other words, Things required by Jews, not required by Christians.
So yes, we are saved by faith, apart from works of the old Jewish law.

This statement however is NOT talking about ALL works.

(this logic also applies to romans 4 when it says the man who has faith but does not works is justified)

Taken one step further. Of course we need to be saved by faith apart from works of the law. If you submit yourself to part of the law, you submit yourself to ALL of the law, and Christ sufferings amount to nothing.

Hope that helps

In Christ

The law includes all works done under the moral law, ceremonial law and natural law.

For example:
Romans 2:17-23 But if you call yourself a Jew and **rely on the law **and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth - 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 **You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. **

Obviously here the law includes something more than just the ceremonial law.

Another example is: Romans 7:7 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! **Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” **

Obviously a reference to the decalogue.

James 2:11 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Again, an obvious example of the law being the decalogue.

In conclusion, it seems to me that the above few examples serve to illustrate that “the law” is not limited to only the ceremonial law.

 

[Pax]

Link,

Even though I do not agree with everything you have posted, I will say that your expressed views are more Catholic on this thread than on any previous thread where I have seen your posts. Keep swimming and may the Lord’s blessings be upon you.

 

[Linkowski]

It sounds like there is a lot of agreement going on here

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Since there is so much agreement let me ask these questions so we can separate the wheat from the chaffe:

1. Is there a difference between God willed works and man willed works?
2. Does genuine faith Always result in God willed works?
3. If genuine faith Always results in God willed works then how does man exercise freedom of will after genuine faith?

4)If genuine faith doesn’t always result in God willed works then what if any penalty does man get if he dies immediately after refusing to do a God willed work?

 

[Philthy]

Repentance is moving from one slavemaster to another…I have a new Lord…I recognize that His law is good. I am no longer depending upon the law to deliver me apart from the Spirit of God. You are speaking of sanctification…which, again, positional sanctification happens at salvation as well. BUT, progressive sanctification is what you speak of…this is a life of purification. As we go through life, sin/impurity comes to the surface through trials and circumstances. As we sin, we repent and get it right with God and move on (this is a picture of the purification of precious metal - heat is added, the dross comes to the surface, and then is removed form the surface to yield a more pure product)…this is part of being a Christian. Those who are not experiencing this cannot have assurance that they are being saved.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Im sorry, but I dont quite see here where you have redefined what “faith” means. There is some excellent stuff for sure, but if you really want a fruitful discussion you need to clearly define which of the definitions of faith you wish to adhere to. Is it a “turning of the heart” only, or is it a “turning away from sin” as well? And if it is the latter, please explain, precisely, how one “turns away” from sin. Thanks.

 

[Bishopite]

Calvinator;2661842]The law includes all works done under the moral law, ceremonial law and natural law.

Yes, all of the three constitute the “law” but being obedient as a Jew only to the cerimonial law without obeying the moral and natural law (which are essentially the same) will NOT save you. The Pharisees tried this with Jesus, they essentially put their hands out and acted as though God you owed them BECAUSE they kept the cerimonial law; that because they circumcized, did animal sacrifices, kept the kosher laws and obeyed the Sabbath (even though they really didn’t obey the Sabbath). So the Pharisees came to God as Him owing whem salvation, yet Jesus said God owes no person anything. It is essentially the same as in Luke 18:9-14 where the tax collector comes to God with a humble heart, repentant and begs God to save him as a sinner. The Pharisee arrogantly goes to God and says thanks God for saving me because you owe me salvation since I’m a great person unlike this tax collector over here.

For example:
Romans 2:17-23 But if you call yourself a Jew and **rely on the law **and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth - 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 **You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. **

Obviously here the law includes something more than just the ceremonial law.

Yes again. The law to the Jew who followed God meant all aspects of the law not just keeping the cerimonial portion.
Dueteronomy 14:1-26 God lays down the cerimonial law, and includes some moral law principles at the end of that section. But starting in verse 26 God lays out the moral law…

26"At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithes of your produce for that year and deposit them in community stores,
29 that the Levite who has no share in the heritage with you, and also the alien, the orphan and the widow who belong to your community, may come and eat their fill; so that the LORD, your God, may bless you in all that you undertake."
This sounds much like James 1:22-27 where James says be doers of the word not just hearers of it and says **to take care of widows and orphans in their afflictions **and that this is true religion. The Pharisees sold out many widows and neglected the weak and poor for their own vain glory.
And Mt 25:34-46 decribes those who did to the “least of these” the poor, sick, suffering and dying. And those who said they did but didn’t.

Another example is: Romans 7:7 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! **Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” **

Obviously a reference to the decalogue.

Exactly. The law pointed out the sin, but couldn’t take away the sin. It put parameters on what was morally truthful and what wasn’t.

James 2:11 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Again, an obvious example of the law being the decalogue.

In conclusion, it seems to me that the above few examples serve to illustrate that “the law” is not limited to only the ceremonial law.

Great point. And we know that the law isn’t just limited to the cerimonial aspects of it because God told Cain that what he did by murdering Able was very serious sin long before the decologue was written; and coversely Cain knew in his heart that what he had done was serious sin, because when God created us, He put the “law” (natural moral law) into our souls as Paul says of the Gentiles in Romans 2:14-16 who don’t have the “law”
(decologue) but still obey “by nature” (the natural moral law of God).

“14For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.”

 

[Pax]

Good summation…nicely done.

 

[Linkowski]

Since there is so much agreement let me ask these questions so we can separate the wheat from the chaffe:

1. Is there a difference between God willed works and man willed works?
2. Does genuine faith Always result in God willed works?
3. If genuine faith Always results in God willed works then how does man exercise freedom of will after genuine faith?

4)If genuine faith doesn’t always result in God willed works then what if any penalty does man get if he dies immediately after refusing to do a God willed work?

1. Yes - there is a difference
2. Yes, it does. Those who are of the elect will do those things that were ordained for them to do…

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning **chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit **and belief of the truth:

1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen…to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

The faith that we are speaking of when we talk on these forums is not a faith of human origin but of supernatural origin - a gift from God. Salvation/rebirth/regeneration is a miracle that parallels the blind coming to see, the dead coming to life…the barren womb bringing forth a child. I do not think that many people truly realize this. This is a supernatural “transaction” so-to-speak that causes a change of heart…

Lu 19:6 And he (Zaccheus) hurried and came down and received Him gladly…
8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”

1. Freedom of will…I have been taught to pray - Thy will be done. I do not want my will (generally - sometimes my flesh wins) I only desire to do the will of God and it is God that is in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure. God has changed me. He has made me into a “good tree”. Christianity is not about what you do…but FIRSTLY, what you ARE. The tree must be made good (the inside) and that will flesh out . So, I have been changed.

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Jeremiah 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

1. Are we not at war? The flesh is against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh and we continually war. The armor that we need to fight with is found in Ephesians 6 and we also hear if things that we need to add to our faith by God’s grace to help us to stand. Perseverance is a gift from God coming by the Spirit and by the Word…

Ro 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,

We fail sometimes…we fall sometimes but we get back up…

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.

1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Have you seen a brother/sister in Christ get chastised by God?? I have and it was not pretty. I have to say that I have received it as well. This is encouraging since…

Heb 12:8 …if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

God has ordained the beginning, middle, and end of salvation for all of the elect. The rest are those who got caught up in the dragnet of the gospel (Matthew 13). There are many reasons people respond to the gospel. Many times they are coerced in some way…many times they are seeing what is in it for me…many times is is a hollow profession and they are around for a while and then they are gone. Ultimately, the elect and only the elect will stand.

In Christ…Link

 

[Pax]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning **chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit **and belief of the truth:

…
…

God has ordained the beginning, middle, and end of salvation for all of the elect. The rest are those who got caught up in the dragnet of the gospel (Matthew 13). There are many reasons people respond to the gospel. Many times they are coerced in some way…many times they are seeing what is in it for me…many times is is a hollow profession and they are around for a while and then they are gone. Ultimately, the elect and only the elect will stand.

In Christ…Link

I assume that you completely agree with the bolded portion of the quote from 2Th 2:13 shown in your post.

Likewise I assume that you agree with the following:

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

If you agree with these scriptures as they are stated in the bible, you must then agree that sanctification is necessary for our salvation. If this is the case then it is important to note the relationship of justification and sanctification. While these two terms are in a strict sense distinguishable, it is important to note that they are inextricably intertwined as part of our salvation. This relationship of the two is perfectly explained in Catholic teaching but is contradicted by justification and salvation by faith alone. Likewise, it is contradicted by OSAS.

If I understand you correctly, then the entirety of your post is generally acceptable to Catholic thought.

 

[Bishopite]

Linkowski;2660397]Repentance is moving from one slavemaster to another…I have a new Lord…I recognize that His law is good. I am no longer depending upon the law to deliver me apart from the Spirit of God. You are speaking of sanctification…which, again, positional sanctification happens at salvation as well. BUT, progressive sanctification is what you speak of…this is a life of purification. As we go through life, sin/impurity comes to the surface through trials and circumstances. As we sin, we repent and get it right with God and move on (this is a picture of the purification of precious metal - heat is added, the dross comes to the surface, and then is removed form the surface to yield a more pure product)…this is part of being a Christian. Those who are not experiencing this cannot have assurance that they are being saved.

Progressive sanctification (to you) is a process of being made more holy and being purged through this life by repenting of ones sins.
A few questions:

1. What if one of the elect doesn’t completely yield to all of their sins in this life?
2. 'Will the elect be completely sanctified through progressive sanctification in this life?

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

This verse in Hebrews certainly tells us that we have to have some degree of holiness in this life. However, to what degree of holiness are we to have in this life in order to see God?

 

[Linkowski]

I assume that you completely agree with the bolded portion of the quote from 2Th 2:13 shown in your post.

Likewise I assume that you agree with the following:

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

If you agree with these scriptures as they are stated in the bible, you must then agree that sanctification is necessary for our salvation. If this is the case then it is important to note the relationship of justification and sanctification. While these two terms are in a strict sense distinguishable, it is important to note that they are inextricably intertwined as part of our salvation. This relationship of the two is perfectly explained in Catholic teaching but is contradicted by justification and salvation by faith alone. Likewise, it is contradicted by OSAS.

If I understand you correctly, then the entirety of your post is generally acceptable to Catholic thought.

I agree - sanctification is part of salvation. BUT…the Justification that you are speaking of is not “Romans” justification. It has more to do with “James” justification or “Matthew 25” justification (the judgment). But…where we would disagree…

1. Infant Justification - Being Born Again at Baptism
2. OSAS (The elect WILL persevere). The others that were caught up in the dragnet are bad fish to be sorted out later.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

In Christ

 

[Pax]

I agree that the elect will persevere, but that is not OSAS.

OSAS teaches that once you are justified you can never lose your salvation. Scripture says otherwise.

We can talk about infant baptism on another thread.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

1. Is there a difference between God willed works and man willed works? Of course! Man willed works do not save!

Only God willed works save as they Let Faith that was Intitially given by Grace Continue Through them thereby sanctifying us.

If faith that is given to us by grace does not Continue through God willed works and we die in that state of non continuance we will go to Hell!

1. Does genuine faith always result in God willed works? Absolutley Not! At any time after being given faith we can Raise an Impediment to God’s grace and choose not to do a work that He will us to do. Why? Because He give us that freedom of will!

If we didn’t have that freedom of will we would be puppets and not men!

Saying that God does not give man that freedom is Blaspheming God!

1. If genuine faith Always results in us doing God willed works how do we exercise Freedom of Will after receiving that initital faith?

The answer is–if it is a certainty that we will always do what God wills us to do–to Always do the works that He wills us to do–then we have No Freedom!

And Let’s Get Real–Who believes that after receiving Faith that we Always do what God wills us to do? Noboby believes that! We sin! When we choose not to do a work that God Intends or wills us to do that is called a Mortal sin! More on that with the last question!

1. If genuine faith doesn’t alweays result in God willed works, then what penalty if any does a man get if he immediately dies after refusing to do a God willed work?

The answer is Hell! Hell is the result of Mortal sin! That is why the scriptures distinguish between “A sin that leadas to death” and a “sin that does not lead to death”.

That is why the scriptures say that the “Just man falls seven times a day”. That just man doesn’t committ seven Mortal sins a day–the Just man committs seven venial sins a day.

If you committ a venial sin and immediately die you will not go to Hell. If you committ a Mortal sin and immediately die you will go to Hell!

The whole Protestant lie at its heart is a denial of the truth that Mortal sin results in Hell!

Satan wants people to deny this so when they do mortally sin and don’t try to immediately fix their condition that death will occurr and he can laughingly take their souls to the fires of Hell!

Grace and faith are a continuing state and process just as Mortal sin is a continuing state and process!

See Protestantism just isn’t “Good Enough” if by “Good Enough” one means that the initital conversion of a person and their initital faith in God is “Good Enough” to mean that either they will never sin or if they do it is OK and will not cost them Heaven.

Initial Faith does not save the person who dies in a state of Mortal sin!

Initital Faith does not keep a person from committing Mortal sin!

And unless a person is Perfectly Contrite for a Mortal sin-- Protestantism’s teaching of confession of those sins directly to God–when that Protestant Knows of the Sacrament of Reconciliation taught by the Catholic Church–and of Jesus’ Breathing on the disciples and giving them the power to Forgive and Retain sins after Calvary thus proving the teaching–and still rejecting that teaching for their Own Mode and System of the Forgivenes of Sins the way They Want their Sins to be Forgiven

In their Individually Designed Personal Relationship with Christ–

Will NOT result in forgivness of those mortal sins and if they continue in that state of Mortal sin until death

Yes they will go to Hell!

The reason Luther championed the system of forgivness of sins by the easy route of direct conferssion of sins to God-- and the system of salvation where Mortal sin did not exist so one could enter Heaven clothed with the robe of Christ as untransformed “Dung” is because it was simply Easier!

And the reason Satan inspired Luther to spread these lies is because it would help him ensnare souls to Hell!

Mortal sin exists–Hell is the result–and Protestasntism puts souls in peril because at its heart it denies that fundamental truth and reality for what is easier

Doesn’t Luther’s view look like the wide way that leads to Hell and the Catholic teaching of Mortal sin the Narrow way that Jesus said leads to Heaven?

The choice is yours!