Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[JonNC]

=AugustTherese;14648972]Yes, of course! The Catholic Church anathematized Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism at Orange and Trent. You should know this.

I don’t think the CC lived up to Orange in the 1400’s and 1500’s in Europe.

Orange: CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

Do you really presume the Catholic Church to be that naive and dense? Were those involved at Trent unable to “look at the context” and realize it was merely a “slogan”?

No. I think there were other influences, though. I really think the ones who fail to look at context live today, on both sides. One sees trite polemics go back and forth. Even here, though at CAF there is abetter chance of in depth that than at some other forums.

Does “sola fide” integrate works with justification?

In this sense, that even those justified,who reject the call to good works, who therefore live in repeated and unrepented sin, lose justifying faith.

Jon

 

[ajcstr]

Question for Calvinists:

Is justification by faith alone or is it really by election alone?

 

[James248]

Sorry to respond to older threads but I have been traveling and just wanted to respond to a couple of comments:

I was not quoting scripture. But consider the following:

“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24)

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 64-65 (Emphasis added)

You truly believe that God and Jesus, knew Judas was the betrayer and yet temporarily adopted Judas into His family? Temporarily sealed him with the Holy Spirit. Yes, when you take the totality of what is written about Judas, he was never saved.

God bless you.

According to eternal predestination he was not saved. Judas’s fate was known to Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that his decision to reject and betray Him was not his decision. There is still free will. Doesn’t God say, “He who has sinned, I will blot out of My Book”?

 

[drblank1]

According to eternal predestination he was not saved. Judas’s fate was known to Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that his decision to reject and betray Him was not his decision. There is still free will. Doesn’t God say, “He who has sinned, I will blot out of My Book”?

I’m not sure what your point is here. He was still never saved. You still can’t show me one person who lost his/her salvation, OT or NT. My point is not about OSAS (of which I believe). It is that once God does His saving work in us, that authentic faith WILL produce good works. This is James’ point. Dead faith versus living faith. James was saying that those who say they only have faith are NOT really Christians.

Scripture please? I supposed to what you are referring, but I’ll let you quote. I think you will see if reads something entirely different.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not sure what your point is here. He was still never saved. You still can’t show me one person who lost his/her salvation, OT or NT. My point is not about OSAS (of which I believe). It is that once God does His saving work in us, that authentic faith WILL produce good works. This is James’ point. Dead faith versus living faith. James was saying that those who say they only have faith are NOT really Christians.

Scripture please? I supposed to what you are referring, but I’ll let you quote. I think you will see if reads something entirely different.

Just a comment.

We do not know, period. We do not know whether Judas was saved or not. God has the ultimate say and He is the Judge, His judgment which we do not have privy to.

We can only hope for His mercy and forgiveness.

About James’ dead faith and living faith. Personally I think that is ingenious. I would rather not go into that or say that because it is more an explanation or justification rather, to defend an already decided doctrine; not what the Bible says.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure what your point is here. He was still never saved.

So someone can be a follower of Jesus but not saved?

And someone can be a faux believer? Someone who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t?

 

[AugustTherese]

I don’t think the CC lived up to Orange in the 1400’s and 1500’s in Europe.

Orange: CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

"If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema…

…If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema." - Canons 1 and 3 Concerning Justification, Council of Trent

In this sense, that even those justified,who reject the call to good works, who therefore live in repeated and unrepented sin, lose justifying faith.

Sure, but does ‘sola fide’ integrate works?

 

[rcwitness]

This is how we should understand the doctrine of Faith and Works:

John 14
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do…"

 

[AugustTherese]

He was still never saved.

Where does Scripture state that Judas was never saved?

You still can’t show me one person who lost his/her salvation, OT or NT.

That is because only God knows the eternal state of a soul in regards to damnation. But, to presume one cannot lose their salvation is unbiblical:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, *** if they fall away***, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

It is that once God does His saving work in us, that authentic faith WILL produce good works. This is James’ point. Dead faith versus living faith. James was saying that those who say they only have faith are NOT really Christians.

No, that is not the case. In fact, it is Saint James’ entire point of exhortation is that faith will not always automatically produce good works, hence his words, “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” It was exactly because those who did have faith were not producing works as to why Saint James wrote his epistle. If “authentic faith WILL produce good works”, then what is the point of Saint James’ epistle?

 

[AugustTherese]

This is how we should understand the doctrine of Faith and Works:

John 14
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do…"

 

[spina1953]

I wonder how is man justified? it would seem to me that God justifies but in what way or manor? While there are those who make the claim that they are saved or that OSAS, how do they know with any certainty? None of us in the end no matter what is said know whether or not we have been justified or saved till one enters into heaven. I feel that there are those we say went to heaven but may have gone to hell and there are those we think might have gone to hell but may have gone to heaven. If God through Christ justifies us at all it is because we try to live the Gospels. In the end only God knows the hearts of men so will justify or not those who come before Him.

 

[drblank1]

So someone can be a follower of Jesus but not saved?

And someone can be a faux believer? Someone who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t?

Read John 6. Jesus has many disciples who followed Him but they were never with Him from the beginning (as was Judas). And they left Him.

Also, what about those people who think they only need to repeat the words someone gives them to receive a “Get out of hell free” card?

Consider all the people who profess to be Christians but only come to church on Christmas and Easter.

Would you say these are authentic Jesus followers?

 

[PRmerger]

Read John 6. Jesus has many disciples who followed Him but they were never with Him from the beginning (as was Judas). And they left Him.

Fair enough.

(Note: many left him in John 6:66 when he gave the Bread of Life discourse, in which he iterated, and reiterated, that his followers would have to eat his flesh)

Also, what about those people who think they only need to repeat the words someone gives them to receive a “Get out of hell free” card?

Consider all the people who profess to be Christians but only come to church on Christmas and Easter.

Would you say these are authentic Jesus followers?

I do not judge them. I do not even judge myself, by the way. It is the Lord who judges, although I am not aware of anything against me, I’m not fully in the clear.

But it sounds like you’re saying there is such a thing as a faux believer? Yes? Someone who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t?

Are we agreed here?

 

[drblank1]

Where does Scripture state that Judas was never saved?

That is because only God knows the eternal state of a soul in regards to damnation. But, to presume one cannot lose their salvation is unbiblical:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, *** if they fall away***, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

About Judas, God is clear:
“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24)

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 64-65 (Emphasis added)

I can’t lose my salvation: Hebrews 6:4-6 supports that:
Hebrews 6:4-6 could not possible be written for the authentic Christian. This would mean that anyone who falls into a life of sin has no recourse for forgiveness. And from the totality of the Bible, we know God is a patient and a forgiving God. If you study the verse closer, there are only 2 possible interpretations:

1. An unbeliever who has heard the Gospel and calling of the Holy Spirit but still rejects Christ.
2. It is a hypothetical statement pointing out it would be impossible for a Christian to fall away, (key word being IF in verse 6) The point being made that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice would be insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. And we know His sacrifice was once and for all time sufficient (Hebrews 10)

Other verses to reference: John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, Romans 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5

And we have already agreed to disagree about James’ discourse.

God bless you

 

[rcwitness]

I can’t lose my salvation: Hebrews 6:4-6 supports that:
Hebrews 6:4-6 could not possible be written for the authentic Christian. This would mean that anyone who falls into a life of sin has no recourse for forgiveness. And from the totality of the Bible, we know God is a patient and a forgiving God. If you study the verse closer, there are only 2 possible interpretations:

1. An unbeliever who has heard the Gospel and calling of the Holy Spirit but still rejects Christ.
2. It is a hypothetical statement pointing out it would be impossible for a Christian to fall away, (key word being IF in verse 6) The point being made that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice would be insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. And we know His sacrifice was once and for all time sufficient (Hebrews 10)

Hebrews 10

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,*but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries…*How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?*For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t lose my salvation:

Unless you’re a faux believer…

 

[drblank1]

Fair enough.

(Note: many left him in John 6:66 when he gave the Bread of Life discourse, in which he iterated, and reiterated, that his followers would have to eat his flesh)

I do not judge them. I do not even judge myself, by the way. It is the Lord who judges, although I am not aware of anything against me, I’m not fully in the clear.

But it sounds like you’re saying there is such a thing as a faux believer? Yes? Someone who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t?

Are we agreed here?

I am happy to see you are “in the clear”. I love that!!!

I am a sinner but I’m glad Jesus covers me. I could not do it without Him.

I do not judge those situations, but discern and have GREAT concern for those who do not have an authentic faith. I will give you an example from my own life. I grew up in the church, went every Sunday, honored my parents, was a model child, and knew who Jesus was and what He did. So I thought I was saved until one night when I was 12, the Holy Spirit KNOCKED me to my knees and I collapsed into a heap of crying joy. After 40 solid minutes of this unbelievable joy, I had to be picked up off the alter and helped back into the front seat of the church until it subsided. Until that night, I thought I was saved but was not. Thanks to God, He showed me what it really meant to be saved. Not saying everyone has to have this experience, but prior to my salvation, I thought I was an authentic follower of Christ and was not.

 

[drblank1]

Unless you’re a faux believer…

Then I never had it to begin with.

 

[PRmerger]

I am happy to see you are “in the clear”. I love that!!!

Emm…I said that I am NOT fully in the clear.

I am a sinner but I’m glad Jesus covers me. I could not do it without Him.

This is very Catholic!

Jesus covers you, but you have to keep fighting the fight.

I do not judge those situations, but discern and have GREAT concern for those who do not have an authentic faith.

As do I.

However, it’s way about our paygrade to discern whose faith is an “authentic” faith.

He I will give you an example from my own life. I grew up in the church, went every Sunday, honored my parents, was a model child, and knew who Jesus was and what He did. So I thought I was saved until one night when I was 12, the Holy Spirit KNOCKED me to my knees and I collapsed into a heap of crying joy. After 40 solid minutes of this unbelievable joy, I had to be picked up off the alter and helped back into the front seat of the church until it subsided. Until that night, I thought I was saved but was not.

Thanks to God, He showed me what it really meant to be saved.

I am curious where you get the idea that this experience (lovely as it was) is an indicator of being saved?

Do you have a Bible verse that says this is how you know you were saved?

Not saying everyone has to have this experience, but prior to my salvation, I thought I was an authentic follower of Christ and was not.

This is interesting. So you though you were saved, but actually weren’t.

Now you think you’re saved…

 

[PRmerger]

Then I never had it to begin with.

Right.

But you can’t tell which one you are, right?

(And here, “you” is a hypothetical “you”, not necessarily a personal “you”).