Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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lanman87 said:
That is very much a Protestant Belief.
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Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)
 
Techno2000 said:
Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)
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So Protestant theology is truncated Catholicism…
 
In post 335 I mentioned . . .
Why say something about justification that St. Paul never says (sola fide) . . .
. . . . And ignore other things St. Paul says about the need to work . . .
And say something that EXPLICITLY contradicts James?
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JonNC. You said in response in post 341:
I don’t think James contradicts Paul at all.
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But my point wasn’t that James contradicts St. Paul.

I don’t think James contradicts Paul either.

St. James and St. Paul not only DO NOT contradict one another, but they CANNOT contradict one another as the teachings are “God-breathed”.

That would be like saying God is contradicting Himself. That would not make sense.

When I mentioned . . . .
Why say something about justification that St. Paul never says (sola fide) . . .
. . . . And ignore other things St. Paul says about the need to work . . .
And say something that EXPLICITLY contradicts James?
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I’m referring to . . . .

Why would Protestants formulate a salvation slogan (“justification by faith ALONE” or “sola fide”) that says something about justification that . . . .

. . . .St. Paul never says (sola fide) . . .
. . . . And ignores other things St. Paul says about the need to work . . .
And say something that EXPLICITLY contradicts St. James?​
 
ajcstr. You stated in post 367 . . . .
I was in a bible study once and the instructor said something like our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be.
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I probably would have said to the instructor, “but nobody is CLAIMING “our works” can save.”

But I AM claiming that after I am in a state of grace, after I am in union with Christ, I CAN . . . WORK out my salvation.

Why?

Because God is (now) at work in me both for the will and good pleasure of the Father.

God working IN me and through me is a grace.

But God DOES work IN people who are in a state of grace.

(This is NOT the same thing as me working apart from grace. When an atheist performs good works, it is MERE NATURAL virtue. They cannot carry out works in the Spirit, apart from . . . well . . . The Holy Spirit. The best they or ANYONE can “do” on their own is “natural virtue” which is not a grace and is not salvific. Christians have God Almighty working in and through them. This is SUPERNATURAL virtue and contributes to your salvation.)
PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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(Are God’s works not salvific?? Yet I must still “cooperate” with these “workings” as St. Paul tells us in 2nd Corinthians 6:1.)

This is a GRACE. It is an undeserved, GIFT from God and if we COOPERATE, than those works of God ARE salvific. St. Paul explicitly says so.
CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

CCC 2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
 
James248 said:
So Protestant theology is truncated Catholicism…
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Not exactly, but our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be has been taught to me since I was young.
 
Cathoholic: Hello St. Paul. Great to have you here. Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.

St. Paul: Thanks Cathoholic.

Cathoholic: St. Paul. Did God choose me to be saved?

St. Paul: Yes. He chose you to be saved by . . . .

Cathoholic: Wait a minute St. Paul. Sorry for interupting you but can I try to finish what you were about to say?

St. Paul: Sure Cathoholic.

Cathoholic: God chose you to be saved by faith ALONE.

St. Paul: That’s NOT what I was about to say Cathoholic.

Cathoholic: Don’t I need to believe in the Truth?

St. Paul: Well yes, certainly.

Cathoholic: So that is faith ALONE then.

St. Paul: Again. That’s NOT what I was going to say Cathoholic.

Cathoholic: Well we know sanctification is just merely crowns and NOT getting saved.

St. Paul: I never taught you or anyone else that Cathoholic.

Cathoholic: OK. What is some of what DID you teach concerning this matter?

St. Paul: You were saved by belief in the truth AND sanctification.

Cathoholic: But St. Paul. I was taught that . . .

St. Paul: “God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”

Cathoholic: Thank you St. Paul.

St. Paul. You are welcome. I got to get going now. As a member of the Body of Christ someone is asking for my prayers and I am going to go pray for them now.

Cathoholic. OK. Again many thanks.
St. Paul . . .
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13
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13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

NOT St. Paul . . .
NOT 2nd THESSALONIANS (but a phantom verse)
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13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through faith ALONE.
 
lanman87 said:
Not exactly, but our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be has been taught to me since I was young.
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God opening up Heaven was the free gift for mankind, the rest is up to us.
 
lanman87 said:
Not exactly, but our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be has been taught to me since I was young.
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Going back to James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ESV

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? KJV

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? NIV

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? NABRE

Your answer to this question would be Yes ???
 
ajcstr said:
Going back to James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ESV

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? KJV

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? NIV

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? NABRE

Your answer to this question would be Yes ???
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God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

Would be interesting to know as well:

Any Catholic believe it and would answer the question Yes?

God bless.

LatinRight
 
lanman87 said:
Not exactly, but our works don’t get us to heaven but they determine what our reward in heaven will be has been taught to me since I was young.
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That’s what I’m seeing from the posts of you and your brethren.
 
ajcstr said:
Going back to James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ESV

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? KJV

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? NIV

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? NABRE

Your answer to this question would be Yes ???
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No, that faith can’t save him, because it isn’t real faith. Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works. We are back to the chicken and the egg:o
 
lanman87 said:
No, that faith can’t save him, because it isn’t real faith. Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works. We are back to the chicken and the egg:o
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But if someone can’t know if he has “real faith”, then there isn’t really any assurance of salvation is there?
 
lanman87 said:
No, that faith can’t save him, because it isn’t real faith. Real faith causes a change in a person that produces works. We are back to the chicken and the egg:o
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But, Saint James does not say, “real faith”. That is your presupposition being read into the passage to support your argument.

“Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my [real] faith by my works.” James 2:18 ESV

That is how it should look given your understanding.
 
LatinRight said:
God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

Would be interesting to know as well:

Any Catholic believe it and would answer the question Yes?

God bless.

LatinRight
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Nope. It would be No. Faith with no charity and no Sacraments is meaningless.
 
AugustTherese said:
But, Saint James does not say, “real faith”. That is your presupposition being read into the passage to support your argument.

“Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my [real] faith by my works.” James 2:18 ESV

That is how it should look given your understanding.
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Well this is kinda what makes me wonder here.

A Protestant would say good works will happen anyway and a Catholic would say it is needed to do good works. Well then what is the problem. Both believe we should do good works. Personally I do think that solves the problem. All Christian should do good works.So let us go out and do that.🙂
 
MichaelP3 said:
Well this is kinda what makes me wonder here.

A Protestant would say good works will happen anyway and a Catholic would say it is needed to do good works. Well then what is the problem. Both believe we should do good works. Personally I do think that solves the problem. All Christian should do good works.So let us go out and do that.🙂
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There is a difference in meaning and substance.

Do you believe good works are a robotic response to faith?

or

Do you believe good works are a result of an internal change in man, and the result is to do good works?
 
pablope said:
There is a difference in meaning and substance.

Do you believe good works are a robotic response to faith?

or

Do you believe good works are a result of an internal change in man, and the result is to do good works?
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Hi Pablope

You are either asking me if I am a Calvinist or like any other Protestant would believe. Actually your last sentience is very Protestant. So my question still stands. Why would any Christian not do good works? Whether he thinks it matters for Salvation, to be combined with faith or to just respect God. WE SHOULD DO GOOD WORKS. That is obvious, so let us do it!
 
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