Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[tgGodsway]

James may have been talking about physical life here but I think he included it. He is contrasting LIFE and DEATH much like the book of Proverbs does. If you can turn a sinner from the error of his ways, you will SAVE A LIFE from DEATH But keep in mind here that James is not talking about the unsaved sinner here. verse 19 addresses them as brethren, if anyone among you wonders from the truth, and someone turns him back… let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way, will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
He writes much like 1st. John who uses similar expressions. "He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness until now. v10 He who loves his brother is in the light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 1st. Jn. 2:9,10
The idea that a believer can abide in darkness and still be treated as a believer is typical John. He was a realist to the struggles of life. So was James. But John made sure to reaffirm their identity in verses 12-14.
see also 1st. Jn. 3:14; 5:16

 

[ajcstr]

ajcstr, I’ve been looking over some of my post and find that I sound very harsh. I apologize.

Not at all, Im actually struck buy how long this thread has been going and nobody has gone off on anyone else yet.

I just have to say though, some of your posts have taken a turn to the point that I really don’t have a response for… If I seem not as involved its for that reason, not because I’m insulted.

 

[rcwitness]

AS TO THE MATT. 25 PASSAGE. AT FIRST GLANCE I CAN SURELY SEE HOW YOU GET A FAITH-WORKS JUGEMENT FROM THIS. SCHOLARS ARGUE WHAT KIND OF JUDGEMENT THIS IS. IS IT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST? IS IT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT? I THINK IT IS NEITHER. IT IS THE JUDGMENT OF NATIONS, JUST AS JESUS SAID IT IS. I’M NOT SURE WHAT THAT IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE BUT APPARENTLY GOD WILL PICK APART NATIONS AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, HE WILL JUDGE THEM ON THEIR WORKS, BOTH GOOD AND BAD. THE EVIL NATIONS WILL RECEIVE THEIR SENTENCE IN HELL WHILE THE RIGHTEOUS WILL ENJOY THE KINGDOM.

I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND JUDGED BY WORKS. THIS IS A CLEAR TEACHING FROM SCRIPTURE. BUT THIS PASSAGE IS MISSING THE TYPICAL FACTORS SUCH AS GRACE, GIFT, OR NEW BIRTH. NO DOUBT IT DOES SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT OUR WORKS PLAY A PART IN HOW ONE INHERITS. INHERITANCE IS MERITORIOUS.

Trust me, I don’t think that I have complete understanding of the prophesies of Scripture! I don’t think anyone does, for that matter.

What Jesus said about the “nations” is puzzling to me too. How can whole nations be judged?

I don’t think He means that. Each person will be accountable for his own life.

Here is another passage, which I don’t think is different from the judgment of Matthew 25.

Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

We know that we have all done evil. But those who confess and repent are forgiven. And those who believe and love, will do good to their neighbor.

Those who do not believe, or believed in vain, do not turn from sin and to the light, or have love of their neighbor from above.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness, I was looking over my last few post and realize that some of my comments sounded very harsh. I apologize. that is not the message I want to communicate. please forgive me.

tgGodsway

Thanks, and no worries. I haven’t been offended. I too don’t have tons of time and can’t address all of your points.

I think some things you say are more Catholic than appear. You use different language and definitions. But some things, I wish you would provide some early Church references, because I’ve never heard some of your interpretations before. Namely, that St James is referring to a temporal salvation, is quite a stretch of the mind.

You make this separation, where there is no explicit distinction in Scripture.

I don’t live in fear, as a Catholic, constantly worried if I’m doing good works to make it to heaven. But I am sorrowful of my sins, and desire and hope to allow God’s love to turn my heart from what He hates. When God turn our hearts from sin, it is filled with love to do His will.

There is peace and joy, when we do His will. That is what removes fear of judgment and fills us with love of His Son and one another.

 

[ajcstr]

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

1 Cor 13

or

Faith without works is dead

OH - actually just noticed this … " if I deliver up my body to be burned…" … Can’t be talking about temporal salvation here.

 

[tgGodsway]

rcwitness,

thanks for the comments. Yeah I realize we don’t use the same verbiage. I imagine it must be really difficult for you guys because you are hearing something for the very first time. That alone will draw red flags. for me and those in my circle, the things I say are common and normal.

I do know Catholics who worry about their salvation. I also know protestants who do the same. Both groups have something in common. They both believe similarly about losing their salvation. About twenty-five years ago I was one of them.

As to Church fathers, honestly, I do not place as much credit on their shoulders as others. I have read various church leaders of our past, and some were just as flawed as some today. But I do think the Church in general knows and understands more than yesteryear, with the exception of the first and second century Church.

The whole idea of extra biblical revelation, or that the New Testament is still being written in the form of Church counsels and Papal decrees is heresy to me and to most Evangelical believers. The Apostolic Church is the foundation upon which we build. But much of what has come out of Rome cannot be built on this foundation. Why? Because it contradicts the founders. This will never be settled this side of heaven.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yeah I hear you. 1st. Cor. 13 was a big parenthesis in between chapters 12 and 14. The gifts work best when they are worked in the love of God. I agree. As to whether that ties in with the faith without works debate, probably.

Listen to the verse the Lord gave Martin Luther that literally caused his whole life to be re-directed.

Rom. 1:17 for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The JUST shall live by faith."
God’s righteousness is something to be revealed. He’s talking to believers who need to know that righteousness is a revelation. We cannot live righteously unless we see what that looks like from God’s perspective.

So how do we jump on board? from faith to faith, meaning from one level of understanding to another level of understanding. thus fulfill the scripture that says, "the (justified ones) shall live by faith. Martin Luther saw that and his eyes were open. The “just”! I am the JUST. and God is calling me to live by faith!

Listen to something similar found in Galatians 3:11 "But that no one is justified by the law (keeping the rules of doing good) in the sight of God is evident, for the “just hall live by faith.”

Hebrews 10:38 adds a little more… “Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him. v39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

The justified ones should walk by faith and not draw back to faithlessness or the powerlessness of keeping the Law as a means to become just. Why? it leads to perdition or destruction. The Hebrew writer insist that he’s not apart of that crowd. He walks in faith, from one level of understanding to the next. This walk of faith delivers his temporal LIFE from temporal death. Why temporal? because we’re dealing with a justified person, one who already obtains eternal life.

 

[spina1953]

One would think that if one has real faith then the good works done is done because one opens themselves up sort of like being an instrument of God who does the good work through the peron. In a sense we are partners in allowing God to work though us. if the servant does not get credit for what the Master had him do why would we take credit then for the good works done through us?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Part 1

Catholics say we are saved by grace through faith (apart from works) it is a gift of God, but with the very same breath, good works must prove over time the genuineness of that person’s salvation, certainly by the end of their life. If the works do not prove this, then their justification is revoked. They cannot come in to heaven.

I’ve come to this thread late, and freely admit I haven’t read it all! I have a life! But you seem to have given a summary, and I’ll respond to that. Before I do, I just would like to point out that everyone (Catholics & non-Catholics) investigate an issue until they are personally satisfied with the conclusion they reach. There may be multiple conclusions from different people that are all equally valid. Having said that, here is my own 2 cents’ worth as a Catholic:

Sanctifying grace is necessary to go to Heaven. It is a gift of God. Jesus died on the cross so that everyone could have the opportunity to go to Heaven. The business about “genuineness of that person’s salvation” and “justification is revoked” is pretty much meaningless to me. Everyone has free will and can decide to do good or evil, to accept or reject God. Whether you go to Heaven or Hell is up to you.

This person will then go to a place called purgatory where the prayers of the saints may pray them out, or, hell itself, depending on the nature of the sin. Sin is divided into two categories: venial and mortal. Venial is sin-lite, mortal is sin-dark.

Venial vs. mortal sin is just common sense, isn’t it? If a 10-year-old steals a dime from his mother’s purse, is it the same seriousness as the sin of a serial murderer who tortures and kills 20 people? Clearly there are degrees of sin, no matter what you might want to call the categories. In one category are sins that disobey God or lead you away from God, but you do not reject God or Sanctifying grace; another category of sin rejects both God and the gift of Sanctifying grace. If you do not repent, you go to Hell.

Purgatory: See Maccabees, where we are told to pray for the dead. Why pray for the dead if they are either in Heaven or Hell? This only makes sense if they are in a 3rd place. From the first days of the Church, believers were told to pray for the dead. Same logic. Again, call the 3rd place whatever you want. Where were Moses, the prophets, and all the good people who died before Jesus died on the cross? They couldn’t get to Heaven without the sacrifice of Jesus. They certainly didn’t belong in Hell. So where were they? Again, there must be a 3rd place.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2

This progressive gift of justification, or, I like to use the term justification “pending a final outcome” is based on particular scriptures that warn the believer of failure. For instance, when the Apostle Paul wrote to the Colossians and said,

“Progressive gift of justification” --??? Certainly I wouldn’t word it that way. To me that implies the idea that once you are “saved” you are always “saved” no matter what you do. St. Paul clearly contradicts that–“continue in the faith” = “don’t commit a mortal sin” = “don’t reject God and Sanctifying grace.”

“justification as a process to be evaluated” —??? “Justification” is a term I would never use. If you want to use it in the sense of “redeemed,” OK. But certainly it’s not a process. By His death on the cross, Jesus redeemed mankind, past, present, and future. It was a single act, not a process. By this act, each person is given the opportunity (notice the choice of words) to get to Heaven. It’s not a guarantee. As I said in a post a couple above yours, Christ’s death opens the door. You have to walk through the door by yourself. You can choose, with your free will, to reject God, redemption, Sandtifying grace, all of it. It’s your choice.

I Colossians. It seems pretty clear to me. Paul went to Corinth, told the people that the law of Moses no longer applied to them (gentile converts to Christianity), they misunderstood and basically said, “Whee, we can do whatever we want!!!” and Paul had to come back and say “No, you idiots. When I said ‘the law of Moses’ I meant the dietary restrictions and so on. The ethical laws still apply!”

The failing believer walks on egg shells wondering if they have enough faith and works to cross the finish line…Both sides are pathetic and unscriptural in my view.

Couldn’t have said it better: pathetic. Let’s leave the faith part out of it, since you can be an atheists or a Buddhist and still go to Heaven. The concept of “enough works” is not a Catholic idea, except in the sense that possibly better people might somehow (who knows how!) have a better “experience” in Heaven. But it flip the Catholic view 180 degrees: if you’re going to Hell, you know it. Why? Because you chose to do a serious act that you knew would lead to a rejection of God and Sanctifying grace. You were conscious of what you were doing, and gave full consent to it. [i.e., you’re not “earning” your way to Heaven–that’s Pelagianism, a heresy] There is also a school of thought that we are not capable of “full consent” in this life because of a host of factors–genetic makeup, our upbringing and psychology, circumstances pushing us this way and that, etc. This school of thought thinks that the only way to give “full consent” is after death–you are presented with your serious (mortal) sins after your death, when you will is unfettered from all earthly concerns. If you still embrace your sins, off you go to Hell. If you say, “Wow. What was I thinking! I’m sorry I did that!” off you go to Heaven. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 3

The work of Christ covers our sin, but then it doesn’t cover it all at this future judgment. We need to throw in some good works to finish the deal.

As I said in my earlier post: think of it as a room or dungeon. Christ opens the door (faith). But you have to choose to walk out of the room (good works). You need both to get to Heaven–you can’t get there without Christ’s death on the cross. But neither can you get there if you commit a mortal sin, which is up to you.

 

[rcwitness]

Couldn’t have said it better: pathetic. Let’s leave the faith part out of it, since you can be an atheists or a Buddhist and still go to Heaven. The concept of “enough works” is not a Catholic idea, except in the sense that possibly better people might somehow (who knows how!) have a better “experience” in Heaven. But it flip the Catholic view 180 degrees: if you’re going to Hell, you know it. Why? Because you chose to do a serious act that you knew would lead to a rejection of God and Sanctifying grace. You were conscious of what you were doing, and gave full consent to it. [i.e., you’re not “earning” your way to Heaven–that’s Pelagianism, a heresy] There is also a school of thought that we are not capable of “full consent” in this life because of a host of factors–genetic makeup, our upbringing and psychology, circumstances pushing us this way and that, etc. This school of thought thinks that the only way to give “full consent” is after death–you are presented with your serious (mortal) sins after your death, when you will is unfettered from all earthly concerns. If you still embrace your sins, off you go to Hell. If you say, “Wow. What was I thinking! I’m sorry I did that!” off you go to Heaven. Sounds reasonable to me.

I believe an Atheist can act in faith. Though I don’t think they would be Atheist, in the true sense. I have not been convinced that the Church professes that Atheists can enter heaven. Without faith, we can not please God. But because of false witnesses, it is possible that men may not “know God” in the proper sense. But still, natural law is sufficient to convict man to know we have a creator. It takes faith to love our neighbor as God loves. And it takes the good news preached by the Church for men to know God and His call to salvation through Jesus.

 

[tgGodsway]

Thanks for the tip Erikaspirit. Where did you get this idea of venial and mortal sin. The only sin the apostle understood was mortal. All sin is deadly in my view. And your analogy makes sense with a few changes. Christ comes and unlocks your prison door and it is up to you to walk out. But before you can do that, you must come alive because you are spiritually dead on the floor. The “coming alive” is your justification and entrance to eternal life. Now that you are alive, you must navigate out of your prison cell with all you’ve got. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I believe an Atheist can act in faith. Though I don’t think they would be Atheist, in the true sense. I have not been convinced that the Church professes that Atheists can enter heaven. Without faith, we can not please God. But because of false witnesses, it is possible that men may not “know God” in the proper sense. But still, natural law is sufficient to convict man to know we have a creator. It takes faith to love our neighbor as God loves. And it takes the good news preached by the Church for men to know God and His call to salvation through Jesus.

Can atheists enter Heaven? Lumen fidei, the first encyclical of Francis I: “Because faith is a way, it also has to do with the lives of those men and women who, though not believers, nonetheless desire to believe and continue to seek. To the extent that they are sincerely open to love and set out with whatever light they can find, they are already, even without knowing it, on the path leading to faith. They strive to act as if God existed…”

And yes, it depends on how you define “atheist.” But I would say that if someone has examined the evidence and in good conscience decided that he/she does not believe in God, but still lives a good life, they would go to Heaven.

 

[tgGodsway]

How good do they need to be in order to go to heaven?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

How good do they need to be in order to go to heaven?

You are reversing things in a very non-Catholic way. Good deeds don’t get you to Heaven–that’s Pelagianism and a heresy. I’ll repeat what I’ve said several times: Christ’s death on the cross redeemed mankind in the sense that it opened the door to Heaven. But you still have to walk through the door of your own free will. You can reject God and sanctifying grace if you want to. But BOTH things are necessary–Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and living a good life. Either one alone doesn’t get you to Heaven.

So to answer your question directly, “How good?” The same as for any Catholic or any person at all: You can’t commit a mortal sin, which is a rejection of God and sanctifying grace. If you do commit a mortal sin, and you are not truly sorry, then you go to Hell, whether you’re Catholic, Baptist, atheist, Buddhist, or whatever.

 

[tgGodsway]

For me it is not about going to heaven. It is about “believing in Jesus”. This trust is our entrance not to heaven, but to eternal life itself. The end result of one who has eternal life, is heaven.
You originally said good deeds do not earn your way to heaven. Then you said it’s two things: the sacrificial work of Christ and living a good life. That would be doing good works, right?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Where did you get this idea of venial and mortal sin. The only sin the apostle understood was mortal. All sin is deadly in my view. And your analogy makes sense with a few changes. Christ comes and unlocks your prison door and it is up to you to walk out. But before you can do that, you must come alive because you are spiritually dead on the floor. The “coming alive” is your justification and entrance to eternal life. Now that you are alive, you must navigate out of your prison cell with all you’ve got. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

I can’t tell you the origin of the concept of venial and mortal sin without researching it. But, as I said, it’s common sense. Again, if you equate a little boy stealing 10 cents from his mother’s purse with a serial killer who has tortured and killed 20 people, you have a problem.

“All sin is deadly.” Well, sin separates you from God. So that’s bad. But not all sin is a rejection___ of God. A venial sin can be forgiven if you simply say “I’m sorry I did so-and-so” in your own mind. Mortal sins must be forgiven in confession. And some sins–abortion, for example–ex-communicates you and must be confessed to a bishop, unless the bishop has delegated a priest to handle those duties.

I’m afraid I don’t follow your “spiritually dead” analogy. Jesus’s death on the cross redeemed all mankind, past, present, and future, in the sense that they have an opportunity to go to Heaven. They are not “spiritually dead.” They may have original sin, which is the absence of sanctifying grace, so in that sense you could say they are “spiritually dead,” but baptism takes away original sin. And there are several forms of baptism, which we don’t need to go into here. So we may or may not agree.

 

[tgGodsway]

The unsaved person is spiritually dead to God, according to the apostle Paul. This means that they are not able to make a spiritual choice for Christ. They are dead to God and His ways. They need a new birth, a resurrection. Consider Lazareth who was dead in the grave. Jesus came and spoke the word over him and he came alive. This is biblical conversion. This is the entrance to eternal life.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

For me it is not about going to heaven. It is about “believing in Jesus”. This trust is our entrance not to heaven, but to eternal life itself. The end result of one who has eternal life, is heaven.

You originally said good deeds do not earn your way to heaven. Then you said it’s two things: the sacrificial work of Christ and living a good life. That would be doing good works, right?

I’m going to bed after this, but here’s my answer.

First, I’m not sure if your “entrance into eternal life” = “going to Heaven”. It seems to me that eternal life could also be spent in Hell. So it depends on what you mean by that.

“Believing in Jesus.” Desirable, yes. Nice, yes. Required? No. Again, it’s not necessary to be Catholic, or even Christian, to go to Heaven. Certainly it’s recommended as the best or recommended way. But it’s not the only way. Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, etc. can all go to Heaven. Christ didn’t die on the cross for only Christians, he died for all mankind. All this is standard, traditional, orthodox Catholicism.

Yes, you’re quoting me correctly: Good deeds do not “earn” your way to Heaven. As I keep saying (what, 5-6 times now? give me a break) BOTH elements are necessary to go to Heaven: Jesus’s sacrificial death on the cross and living a good life. Living a good life is not so much racking up points for good deeds as it is avoiding mortal sin, or being sorry for mortal sin if you commit one.
Or to put it another way, “living a good life” = avoiding mortal sin. If you open doors for old ladies, give to the poor, visit the sick, etc., that’s all terrific, and some would argue “good deeds” give you a better place in Heaven (again, whatever that means!). But if you just avoid mortal sin, that’s good enough.