Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[lanman87]

God is our Judge. Protestants judge themselves. I don’t mean any disrespect when I say that. You don’t wait for God’s judgement. Protestants declare themselves saved and look around and pretend declare who else they judge saved and whom they don’t. Just like you did above when you said:

Wow, you had to dig deep in this thread to get to that post. I made it months ago.

Whether or not you can know you have the gift of eternal life is another topic.

I was speaking about how God judges us, not how we judge ourselves. If the Catholic doctrine of Justification by faith + works is true then many Protestants meet that definition as they have both. They may believe they are saved by faith alone but in reality they have faith plus do many works.

If the Protestant doctrine of being declared just by faith alone and that our works justify (give evidence) of our faith then many Catholics meet that definition as they trust in Christ to save them. They may believe they are justified by faith+works but if the Protestant doctrine is correct then they are declared just because of their faith.

The point is that someone can be saved even if they have the wrong understanding of how it all works together. Both can’t be right about the relationship of faith and works. Both say the other is wrong. But if you look at the life of those who, both Catholic and Protestant, who take their faith seriously, you will find both have both great faith and many works. If that is what God judges then there is no difference in their standing before God.

 

[JonNC]

=“De_Maria, post:1583, topic:442045, full:true”]
lol! I’m surprised you ask this. You haven’t declared youself saved by faith alone? Here are a few examples
Justification by faith alone is not a self-declaration of being saved.
A some youth pastor from a obscure church does not speak for all of protestantism, as you have tried to imply here. All you’ve shown here is the opinion of one guy.

And if you’ve taken that step, you can know that you’re saved. (See 1 John 5:11-12.)
http://www.christianitytoday.com/iyf/advice/faithdoubt/how-can-i-be-sure-im-saved.html

For I’m saved.
I’m saved.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/i-am-saved-lyrics-ricky-dillard-new-g.html

Its pretty much a distinguishing characteristic of Protestantism. They are known for standing on street corners, de lari g themselves saved and asking everyone, “are you saved?” Do you deny this?
LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

ROTFL. A song? You think this is a doctrinal statement? Really? This is your proof that protestants
" judge themselves. I don’t mean any disrespect when I say that. You don’t wait for God’s judgement. Protestants declare themselves saved and look around and pretend declare who else they judge saved and whom they don’t." ?

 

[De_Maria]

ROTFL. A song? You think this is a doctrinal statement? Really? This is your proof that protestants
" _judge themselves.

Yep. And a bunch of videos. That was the last link. And a Protestant magazine. I’m surprised you haven’t declared yourself saved by faith alone.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

ROTFL. A song? You think this is a doctrinal statement? Really? This is your proof that protestants
" _judge themselves.

Yep. And a bunch of videos. That was the last link. And a Protestant magazine. I’m surprised you haven’t declared yourself saved by faith alone.

Which of these is a doctrinal statement from a particular communion.

Actually, I have always defended sola fide. And I defend it against those who misrepresent it, be they non-Catholic or Catholic.
To state that sola fide means judging oneself saved is a gross misrepresentation.

 

[De_Maria]

Wow, you had to dig deep in this thread to get to that post. I made it months ago.

Not proud of it, huh?

Whether or not you can know you have the gift of eternal life is another topic.

I wanted to make the point that Protestants say they are saved by “faith alone”. Or has that changed?

I was speaking about how God judges us, not how we judge ourselves.

The point I’m making is that Protestants confuse the two.

A. Catholics believe that God judges us. We don’t claim to be saved. We let Him judge us.
B. Protestants claim to be saved by faith alone and constantly tell people that they’re saved. They even claim to know the day and the hour that they’re saved. Am I right? Thus, they judge themselves.

If the Catholic doctrine of Justification by faith + works is true then many Protestants meet that definition as they have both.

I understand what you’re saying. But you don’t get what I’m saying. Do you see how claiming that some Protestants are saved by faith and works rolls right off your tongue? That’s not the Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic Doctrine is that God judges our salvation by our faith and works.

They may believe they are saved by faith alone but in reality they have faith plus do many works.

And when they get to the gates of heaven and say, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ They MIGHT hear these words:

‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Here’s the thing to keep in mind. Protestants all reject the Mass. See Heb 10:25-31

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

If the Protestant doctrine of being declared just by faith alone and that our works justify (give evidence) of our faith then many Catholics meet that definition as they trust in Christ to save them. They may believe they are justified by faith+works but if the Protestant doctrine is correct then they are declared just because of their faith.

Protestant doctrine is false. God doesn’t justify those who don’t do good. God justifies only those who have done works of righteousness. But He doesn’t justify them by their works. He justifies them because of His mercy, through the washing of regeneration which is Baptism (Titus 3:5).

The point is that someone can be saved even if they have the wrong understanding of how it all works together.

That is Catholic Doctrine.

Both can’t be right about the relationship of faith and works. Both say the other is wrong. But if you look at the life of those who, both Catholic and Protestant, who take their faith seriously, you will find both have both great faith and many works. If that is what God judges then there is no difference in their standing before God.

Hebrews 10:25 We should not stay away from our assembly,[a] as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? 30 We know the one who said:

Between us, who rejects the Eucharist?
Between us, who rejects the Mass?

That’s what I’m trying to tell you.

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

 

[De_Maria]

Which of these is a doctrinal statement from a particular communion.

I was speaking generically because I don’t know any Protestants who don’t believe in salvation by faith alone. It is Luther who said, “By this doctrine, the Reformation stands or falls.” Am I right?

Actually, I have always defended sola fide.

So, why are you pretending that I’m wrong about this?

And I defend it against those who misrepresent it, be they non-Catholic or Catholic.
To state that sola fide means judging oneself saved is a gross misrepresentation.

Well, let’s see. When Catholics are asked, “Are you saved?” We are brought to task by Protestants because our answer is, “I don’t know. I hope so. But God knows.”

And when Protestants are asked, “Are you saved?” They answer, “Yes! I’m saved! I said the sinner’s prayer and declared Jesus my Saviour, therefore, I’m saved because of my faith alone!” True or false?

 

[Debbie_Kono]

I’m a convert. Bible studies in our home. Mission trips. I and my closest friends (12 of us in our Bible study) took our faith very serious. During my conversion process every single one of my friends and others tried to talk me out of it. They ALL said…eeewww, Catholic? Works? Don’t you know you’re already saved? Jesus paid the price…we don’t have to. Then I asked how many believed in OSAS…all of them except one raised their hand.

 

[JonNC]

I was speaking generically because I don’t know any Protestants who don’t believe in salvation by faith alone. It is Luther who said, “By this doctrine, the Reformation stands or falls.” Am I right?

There is no such thing as accurately speaking generically of Protestants. They are not now, and never have been, one communion.
If you wish to speak of Luther and Lutherans, then I ask you again, produce a doctrinal state from a Lutheran synod that claims a person gets to self-judge that they are saved.
If Luther’s words about the doctrine of Justification are the topic, then common courtesy and charity requires you to accurately reflect what he meant by justification, not an intentionally inaccurate caricature.

nd when Protestants are asked, “Are you saved?” They answer, “Yes! I’m saved! I said the sinner’s prayer and declared Jesus my Saviour, therefore, I’m saved because of my faith alone!” True or false?

Which Protestants? I’ve never said the Sinners Prayer. I was baptized and later confirmed. I’ve never declared Jesus as my Savior. I received Him. I receive Him weekly in the sacrament of the Eucharist. I recognize that a human being accesses Justification by grace along through faith alone , but I can lose that Justification.
So, false.

 

[De_Maria]

There is no such thing as accurately speaking generically of Protestants. They are not now, and never have been, one communion.

Besides the point. Name one that doesn’t teach salvation by faith alone.

If you wish to speak of Luther and Lutherans, then I ask you again, produce a doctrinal state from a Lutheran synod that claims a person gets to self-judge that they are saved.

The ball is in your court now. You said you defend the do trine of faith alone. Now teach us how you apply it without judging yourself when you say, “I’m saved.”

If Luther’s words about the doctrine of Justification are the topic, then common courtesy and charity requires you to accurately reflect what he meant by justification,…

As a defender of Luther it is your task to show why it is a caricature.

Which Protestants? I’ve never said the Sinners Prayer. I was baptized and later confirmed. I’ve never declared Jesus as my Savior. I received Him. I receive Him weekly in the sacrament of the Eucharist. I recognize that a human being accesses Justification by grace along through faith alone , but I can lose that Justification.
So, false.

So, you don’tbelieve you’re saved by faith alone. If I ask you, are you saved? Whats your answer? Be honest. Nothing is to be gained if you’re simply determined to win an argument.

 

[lanman87]

Between us, who rejects the Eucharist?

Between us, who rejects the Mass?

That’s what I’m trying to tell you.

There are many on this board who identify Obedience as taking the Eucharist at Mass and having the correct understanding of transubstantiation.

You don’t seem to allow for the fact that people can Love God and Love others and live for Jesus without going to Mass or believing in transubstantiation. You don’t seem to allow for the fact that non-Catholic Christians gather to worship, study, give, encourage, love each other, support each other and then go out and share the love of Jesus with the world and help those hurting and in need.

Protestants understand that we aren’t saved by having correct doctrine, we are and will be saved by having a relationship with Christ. You believe the Eucharist is what gives you that relationship, we believe faith gives us that relationship and that commune with Christ in prayer and worship and study and by the indwelling Holy Spirit. We also understand that we, in our humanness, can develop and argue different opinions and understandings and doctrines. But we also understand that God’s grace overcomes any opinions and understandings that are wrong. Being wrong about Baptism doesn’t keep anyone from Christ, being wrong about the Lord’s Supper doesn’t keep anyone from Christ, being wrong about faith and works doesn’t keep anyone from Christ. We all think that we are right about those things and can quote numerous Bible versus to back up our position, but in the end some of us will be right and some of us will be wrong. God will not judge us about having correct doctrine or the perfect religious expressions. He will judge us on if we know Him or not. Loving Jesus and Loving others trumps the Mass and the Eucharist and baptism and faith alone and all the other doctrines we argue about.

 

[Wannano]

De_Maria:

Between us, who rejects the Eucharist?

Between us, who rejects the Mass?

That’s what I’m trying to tell you.

There are many on this board who identify Obedience as taking the Eucharist at Mass and having the correct understanding of transubstantiation.

You don’t seem to allow for the fact that people can Love God and Love others and live for Jesus without going to Mass or believing in transubstantiation. You don’t seem to allow for the fact that non-Catholic Christians gather to worship, study, give, encourage, love each other, support each other and then go out and share the love of Jesus with the world and help those hurting and in need.

Protestants understand that we aren’t saved by having correct doctrine, we are and will be saved by having a relationship with Christ. You believe the Eucharist is what gives you that relationship, we believe faith gives us that relationship and that commune with Christ in prayer and worship and study and by the indwelling Holy Spirit. We also understand that we, in our humanness, can develop and argue different opinions and understandings and doctrines. But we also understand that God’s grace overcomes any opinions and understandings that are wrong. Being wrong about Baptism doesn’t keep anyone from Christ, being wrong about the Lord’s Supper doesn’t keep anyone from Christ, being wrong about faith and works doesn’t keep anyone from Christ. We all think that we are right about those things and can quote numerous Bible versus to back up our position, but in the end some of us will be right and some of us will be wrong. God will not judge us about having correct doctrine or the perfect religious expressions. He will judge us on if we know Him or not. Loving Jesus and Loving others trumps the Mass and the Eucharist and baptism and faith alone and all the other doctrines we argue about.

Ianman, how you have condensed this is valuable as a reference for non-Catholics and Catholics alike.
We all have the ability to have a wrong or incomplete understanding of something.

 

[James817]

Didn’t He say “Unless you eat of the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink of His Blood you shall not have life within you?” And didn’t He also say, “Those who love Me will keep my commands?” Sounds like loving Him means we have to follow the command to eat Him.

 

[De_Maria]

You don’t seem to allow for the fact that people can Love God and Love others and live for Jesus without going to Mass …

I’m not your Judge.

Protestants understand that we aren’t saved by having correct doctrine, we are and will be saved by having a relationship with Christ…

Being wrong about Baptism doesn’t keep anyone from Christ, being wrong about the Lord’s Supper doesn’t keep anyone from Christ,…

BasicLly, it sounds as though you don’t believe that Jesus meant what He said.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Jon NC, Thank you for your reply. I to object to the broad brush painting of all western non-Catholic views as some while said differently from the way Catholic’s say it do have the same understanding. When I was in high school I had a math teacher who could find all sorts of ways to explain a math problem in order for one to understand how to solve it. I use this example to show that that there are many way to explain something in order to understand and just one way does not fit everyone’s way of understanding.
I don’t always agree with what all Protestants think and understand but I respect what they say and try to understand their position in order to try to explain my understanding. I think one thing some of us misunderstand it that just like Protestants in their particular churches they are taught accordingly to the understanding their pastor or minister teaches just as Catholic’s at least most Catholic’s are taught what they believe. Even among Catholic’s there is a broad understanding of what Catholic’a are taught that is some see what they were taught in different ways as they understand it and not every Catholic agrees with what another Catholic understands something.
I think its one thing to inform one of what and how they believe and its another to try and force an understanding that one does not accept due to their particular understanding. None of us i think will understand something the same way another does all the time. it depends on how its presented. Of course asking questions helps if one is trying to understand the position and if one does not not understand it or has a different view or understanding then one should try to find different ways of answering so that one comes to understanding which does not mean acceptance, just understanding the position.

 

[lanman87]

BasicLly, it sounds as though you don’t believe that Jesus meant what He said.

All Protestant groups that I’m aware of practice baptism and take communion. While they, according to Catholic doctrine, don’t understand or don’t practice the letter of the law (as defined by Catholic doctrine) it is clear that by their actions they are taking part in the Spirit of the Law.

 

[De_Maria]

I hope you’re right. Thanks for the polite discussion.

 

[JonNC]

Besides the point. Name one that doesn’t teach salvation by faith alone.

It is the point precisely. You presented an obscure youth pastor from somewhere as confirmation that this is what sola fide looks like to Protestants. It doesn’t look like that to most. The is no such thing as The Protestant Church.

The ball is in your court now. You said you defend the do trine of faith alone. Now teach us how you apply it without judging yourself when you say, “I’m saved.”

When did I say I’m saved. I said I am justified by grace alone (a gift from God) through faith alone (a gift through God’s grace ) by the saving work of Christ alone. No where did I say I’m saved, or that I get to declare it. In fact, I am very capable of losing that justification.
So, now the ball is in your court, tell me where, specifically in Lutheran teaching or Anglican teaching where it is stated that one gets to self-judge their salvation. A specific doctrinal statement is needed here.

So, you don’tbelieve you’re saved by faith alone. If I ask you, are you saved?

Of course I can say that I am justified by grace alone through faith alone by the saving work of Christ alone. What I described in that paragraph is how it works in the Lutheran tradition that I was raised in.
Will I be saved? I pray so.

 

[JonNC]

As a defender of Luther it is your task to show why it is a caricature.

Read his writings about Justification

 

[James817]

How can you be in accord with the Spirit if you don’t even believe Jesus’s words which are Spirit and Life?