Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[drblank1]

From what I see, some think there is initial justification and further justification. This kind of sound like you are saying you are saved and then “more” saved? But if that means further justification is growing closer to God as we experience our faith-walk with Jesus, then we are in agreement.

From a protestant standpoint (and maybe Catholic ), you pass from death to life at the moment of salvation/justification and you can’t get anymore alive. You are justified. It a 0 or 1. Black or white.

The thief on the cross first mocked Jesus and then later believed. He did nothing but have faith in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work. He was justified by his faith. He went from 0 to 1.

 

[Wampa]

From what I see, some think there is initial justification and further justification. This kind of sound like you are saying you are saved and then “more” saved? But if that means further justification is growing closer to God as we experience our faith-walk with Jesus, then we are in agreement.

I usually read threads like these but never comment (because I don’t feel competent in articulating this stuff well), but I’m going to take a crack. Catholics, please correct me if I misrepresent!

Yes, I would say it’s the further justification you describe. It’s not so much that we get “more saved” but rather that we view salvation as having past, present, and future elements and we have to do some things to remain on the path (we’re not earning it; but we have to work to not reject it). What you view as the one-time salvation event we would view as initial justification with needed sanctification throughout the rest of our lives.

I actually think the Catholic and Protestant views are mostly just different ways of looking at the same thing (and using different verbiage).

For example, let’s say I come to Christ and accept him and do whatever you consider necessary for salvation. You’d say I was saved and Catholics would say I had experienced initial justification.

Then I fall into a life of unending murder and heaping mayhem upon others. I die in that state, completely unrepentant. You would say that because I never followed up my salvation with any good works at all (and only evil works), it proved that my salvation was false in the first place (I was never saved). Catholics would say I never underwent any sanctification to stay in God’s good graces, but rather separated myself from him (as we could call it, mortal sin).

Both sides would say I was unsaved upon death (let’s assume I am accurate in describing my heart as God sees it). Same events, same results, just different ways to explain it.

This is why we like to say we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) and why we don’t feel we can answer “Are you saved?” with only a binary yes/no at a given point in time because our lives aren’t over yet.

 

[drblank1]

I actually think the Catholic and Protestant views are mostly just different ways of looking at the same thing (and using different verbiage).

Yes, that is what I am thinking too.

For example, let’s say I come to Christ and accept him and do whatever you consider necessary for salvation. You’d say I was saved and Catholics would say I had experienced initial justification.

TRUE salvation/justification

Then I fall into a life of unending murder and heaping mayhem upon others…

Then one was never saved to begin with. There is not one authentic follower of God/Jesus in the Bible who’s relationship with God was ever described as permanently severed. They are all stories of redemption.

An authentic/living faith alone saves. Works are a result of that living faith.

 

[drblank1]

This argument (not what you specifically are saying but this argument in general) makes me NUTS!! And this is NOT taking a verse in a vacuum.

1. plain English (or Greek) “justified by works and not by faith alone”
2. What separates those that have an active faith from those with a dead faith? What does one have that the other does not? James’ words not mine.
3. The example James uses is Abraham offering his son but the example Paul uses in Romans is also Abraham but many years earlier. Both use the word justified. That’s why Catholic theology sees justification as a process. Paul is talking about initial justification in Ephesians 2 (free gift - cannot be earned). Paul is primarily talking about circumcision in Romans 3 (works of law - same argument as in Acts 15) and also showing that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised and not through circumcision. James is talking about living out your faith through works - this is the same formula as Paul uses in Ephesians (Saved by grace through faith for good works which God has prepared for us that we should walk in them).

And may God bless you also.

Please forgive me is I read this wrong, but I think you agree that faith alone saves. Comments on each of your points above:

Vacuum and #1: you can’t take a single verse and prove a point. You must take it in context with the chapter, book, and entire Bible. For instance, “Thou shall not kill.” If I see you step on a bug, or spray a weed in your yard, I can point to Exodus 20:13 and accuse of you braking one of the 10 commandment. But when you read the Bible in its entirety, you know God is saying not to kill another human because we are made in the image of God.

1. True conversion FROM and BY God results in a living faith.
2. Yes initial justification. At the beginning of his walk with God, Abraham was saved by his faith. Nothing that he did within himself. He just believed.

As I work in God’s Kingdom, I grow in my personal and intimate relationship with my Savior and Lord, Christ Jesus and my Holy Father God. And the Holy Spirit speaks to and guides me daily. I am guessing that is what Catholics would call further justification and/or sanctification. We call it growing in faith through and in God’s grace.

God bless

 

[Cathoholic]

susanlo. You said:

Most people have more weight on the sin side and they must go to purgatory to make up for the balance of sin remaining.

You are referring to the “Treasury of Merits” of the Saints.

And you may already know this (but there may be “lurkers” here that don’t), but the “Treasury of Merits” is necessarily ASSOCIATED with Jesus Christ.

If they were not, the merits of the Saints would not be good enough.

 

[James248]

Then one was never saved to begin with. There is not one authentic follower of God/Jesus in the Bible who’s relationship with God was ever described as permanently severed. They are all stories of redemption.

Do you mean saved as that man never was in Christ at death? Because a person who is in Christ can fall away.

 

[PluniaZ]

Saint Maximus the Confessor understood James perfectly well:

“**Do not say that you are the temple of the Lord, writes Jeremiah (cf. Jer. 7:4); nor should you say that faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ can save you, for this is impossible unless you also acquire love for Him through your works.

As for faith by itself, ‘the devils also believe, and tremble.**"

orthodoxchurchquotes.com/2013/07/26/st-maximos-the-confessor-do-not-say-that-you-are-the-temple-of-the-lord/

 

[drblank1]

Do you mean saved as that man never was in Christ at death? Because a person who is in Christ can fall away.

Yes, the man was never in Christ. It was a dead faith. The given example of an authentic Christian ending up in hell is not valid.

I don’t believe an authentic Christian ends up in hell. There is not one example (OT or NT) where that happened.

James is speaking of a false faith.

 

[James248]

Yes, the man was never in Christ. It was a dead faith. The given example of an authentic Christian ending up in hell is not valid.

I don’t believe an authentic Christian ends up in hell. There is not one example (OT or NT) where that happened.

James is speaking of a false faith.

This is where Protestant theology differs from Catholic theology.

 

[Reuben_J]

Dear Protestant brothers and sisters,

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” James 2:24 NKJV

Many of you ascribe your beliefs regarding justification to the view of being justified by faith alone and NOT by works. How would you reconcile your beliefs in light of the aforementioned Scripture verse?

With love,

Your Catholic brother

Not faith alone … which is bad Christian theology

But faith and work.

 

[AugustTherese]

I think you just answered a question I have about how Catholics view grace. From your answer it looks like you view initial grace as a free gift but to stay in grace or maybe get more grace (i’m sure you have terms for this) you perform the sacraments and do good works?

Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body

Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. - CCC, Article 2, Grace and Justification



Also, I will past two links here that distinguish between actual (prevenient) grace and sanctifying grace:

newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

 

[spina1953]

It seems to me that if faith alone is the only thing required in order to be saved, then the meaning is quite clear that one does not need to do anything like good works. it also means that one can do whatever as it no longer matters since if one has faith one is saved period.
I don't think all Protestants think that way but its obvious that many do. it also seems to me to be the easy way to heaven, that one does nt need to do anything once one has faith they are saved no matter what. This seems to me to be contrary to what the Gospels say which it appears that good works go along with faith. St. James said it correctly faith alone does not save and faith and good works go together. This can bee seen in the Gospels themselves. It also seems that we are to keep working out our faith as why should Christ justify one who does nothing but says has faith?

 

[ajcstr]

Please forgive me is I read this wrong, but I think you agree that faith alone saves. Comments on each of your points above:

Vacuum and #1: you can’t take a single verse and prove a point. You must take it in context with the chapter, book, and entire Bible. For instance, “Thou shall not kill.” If I see you step on a bug, or spray a weed in your yard, I can point to Exodus 20:13 and accuse of you braking one of the 10 commandment. But when you read the Bible in its entirety, you know God is saying not to kill another human because we are made in the image of God.

1. True conversion FROM and BY God results in a living faith.
2. Yes initial justification. At the beginning of his walk with God, Abraham was saved by his faith. Nothing that he did within himself. He just believed.

As I work in God’s Kingdom, I grow in my personal and intimate relationship with my Savior and Lord, Christ Jesus and my Holy Father God. And the Holy Spirit speaks to and guides me daily. I am guessing that is what Catholics would call further justification and/or sanctification. We call it growing in faith through and in God’s grace.

God bless

Yes but someone can receive the gift of initial justification and subsequently lose it if he does not cooperate with God’s grace. So from a Catholic point of view final justification would not occur until the moment of death. The binary system you mention does not really carry over because we would say we are being justified/being saved. You would say you go from 0 to 1 at initial justification.

As I say we are close, but not the same. Part of the problem is that we use the same words but mean different things.

I believe I am taking James in context as he is talking about Christians who already have faith but their works do not demonstrate their faith and therefore their faith (alone) cannot justify/sanctify/save them.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1

Yes, the man was never in Christ. It was a dead faith. The given example of an authentic Christian ending up in hell is not valid.

WHY do you say he was NEVER in Christ in the first place?

Even “dying” suggests that someone WAS alive.

 

[ajcstr]

I think you just answered a question I have about how Catholics view grace. From your answer it looks like you view initial grace as a free gift but to stay in grace or maybe get more grace (i’m sure you have terms for this) you perform the sacraments and do good works?

ALL grace is a free gift. It would be incorrect to say I receive a sacrament so I earn grace or I do a good work to earn grace. More correct to say God offers us grace through the sacraments or God gives us the grace to perform a good work. But we are free to accept/cooperate with the grace or to reject it. I believe the term is “synergism” which is rejected by Protestantism in general. Have not figured out how works fit in with Methodists.

Luther denied that we need to cooperate with grace and Calvin argued that we could not resist grace.

 

[ajcstr]

It seems to me that if faith alone is the only thing required in order to be saved, then the meaning is quite clear that one does not need to do anything like good works. it also means that one can do whatever as it no longer matters since if one has faith one is saved period.

I think the counter argument is that if one has faith and is saved, good works will automatically flow. Like a beating heart and a pulse. The heart beating is causing the pulse and the pulse is evidence of a beating heart. If the heart is beating there can’t not be a pulse. And if there is no pulse… well its a dead heart. I think this is the reasoning our non-catholic friends apply to James 2.

 

[spina1953]

I think the counter argument is that if one has faith and is saved, good works will automatically flow. Like a beating heart and a pulse. The heart beating is causing the pulse and the pulse is evidence of a beating heart. If the heart is beating there can’t not be a pulse. And if there is no pulse… well its a dead heart. I think this is the reasoning our non-catholic friends apply to James 2.

Hi ajcstr, I agree! But the things while most Protestants might go along with your thought, there are many who seem to thing one does not need anything more no required to do anything more than to have faith. Good works does not enter into the picture. So i the end it depends on which Protestant group one is either agreeing or not agreeing with faith alone meaning one does good works because of it or that one has no need of good works.

For me it is both faith and good works and the Gospels say as much.

 

[Reuben_J]

For me it is both faith and good works and the Gospels say as much.

Exactly.

It is what the Bible says, not its extrapolation.

It is both faith and work, not one without the other.

If it is faith alone and without work, it is a dead faith.

If it is work alone and without faith, well, one cannot buys one’s way to heaven.

So it is both faith and work, exactly what the Bible says. I am glad that the Catholic Church takes this teaching, very Biblical and very accurate.

 

[ajcstr]

Hi ajcstr, I agree! But the things while most Protestants might go along with your thought, there are many who seem to thing one does not need anything more no required to do anything more than to have faith. Good works does not enter into the picture. So i the end it depends on which Protestant group one is either agreeing or not agreeing with faith alone meaning one does good works because of it or that one has no need of good works.

Agree 100% of course, I was just responding to a particular post.

For me it is both faith and good works and the Gospels say as much.

Agreed again. One can certainly produce a laundry list of passages that say we will be judged according to our works and/or that our works follow us.

 

[lanman87]

ALL grace is a free gift. It would be incorrect to say I receive a sacrament so I earn grace or I do a good work to earn grace. More correct to say God offers us grace through the sacraments or God gives us the grace to perform a good work. But we are free to accept/cooperate with the grace or to reject it. I believe the term is “synergism” which is rejected by Protestantism in general. **Have not figured out how works fit in with Methodists. **

Luther denied that we need to cooperate with grace and Calvin argued that we could not resist grace.

I was raised Southern Baptist but have attended the Methodist church and have participated in Methodist Bible studies. I’m certainly no expert and I certainly welcome someone who attends a Methodist church to correct me if I misstate Methodist beliefs.

My understanding is that a Methodist (and around half of protestants) would say that we cooperate with God through faith. That Faith is the only way to receive the free gift of grace. However, Methodist and other protestants who hold Armenian doctrine believe that grace is accepted and rejected by an act of Free Will.

A Baptist would say that by faith we are adopted as children of God and because we are his Children there is nothing we can do to be un-adopted. God will discipline us and do everything possible to bring us to a right relationship with Him. But even if we totally reject the faith we are still his child because you can’t undo an adoption. The doctrine of once saved always saved could be reworded “Once a child of God always a Child of God”.

A Methodist would say that faith is the only way to receive grace. That as long as person has faith God grants his Gift of Grace. But if the person chooses, by his own free will, to no longer have faith, God honors that decision and removes the status of “sonship” from the person who rejects the faith. In other words, the lack of faith kills or nullifies the status of adoption.

Both Baptist and Methodist believe that participation in the life of a local church does not “give additional grace” but is a means of growing in faith and knowledge of the grace we have already received by faith. They both also believe that participation in the church helps equip us for “Good Works” and to use our spiritual gifts and natural talents to Glorify God and expand His Kingdom.