Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

  • Thread starter Thread starter AugustTherese
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
John Wesley definitely taught a lot of things inline with a more Arminian perspective, as Methodism was at first seen as under the umbrella of the Church of England. So, yes, Methodists do believe in free will, no irresistible grace but rather enabling grace, and there wad a sacramental view in earlier Methodism that is experiencing a resurgence. From the UMC website,

"Faith and Good Works

United Methodists insist that faith and good works belong together. What we believe must be confirmed by what we do. Personal salvation must be expressed in ministry and mission in the world. We believe that Christian doctrine and Christian ethics are inseparable, that faith should inspire service. The integration of personal piety and social holiness has been a hallmark of our tradition. We affirm the biblical precept that “faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (James 2:17).”
 
It seems to me that if truly one has faith then one become an instrument of God that is to say we are partners in which God does His work through one. its true what we are all God’s children no matter what, but that does not mean that we can do as we want and expect to be saved just because we are God’s children.

There are those who do good works yet do not have faith either in God or in Christ. God can still do His works through them. However those who have never heard of Christ for example those living in the Amazon who never saw a airplane etc. yet, in some way or manor do God’s work may still be saved by Christ since Christ knows the hearts of all and nothing is ever hidden from Him. But those who have heard and still do not believe that is have faith well that is a choice on their part and Christ will judge since he is the only one who really knows the why of it.
For those of us who believe and say we have faith,then faith must be connected with good works because it shows faith in action otherwise its just a dead faith which is not faith at all. Sadly there are many who seem to think that all one needs is faith to be saved and nothing more. One does not need to do any good works claiming that good works will not save anyone. This is true but only up to a point since if one is doing any good works in order to be saved they are no better off than one who say they have faith but does nothing with it; good works.

Catholic teaching says that we should do good works out of love for God and Christ, not because we have to but because we want to.This is what faith does, its action its not hidden nor just said but faith is working and it only works when one does good works. I do think many Protestants believe good works follow faith just another way of saying what Catholic’s believe and are taught. yet, think due to how they may have been taught that somehow Catholic’s believe that good works save one when in fact Catholic’s were never taught that and know that good works are apart of having faith and the two go together.

I find it very sad that there are those who have so much hatred towards the Catholic Church and its teachings that no matter who many times its explained or said they do not believe and so when it comes to faith and good works it does not matter as far as they are concerned they believe catholic’s do good works in order to be saved thinking good works save when in fact that was never the case. For some its a lack of understanding and knowledge while for others its just plain its what I say the Bible says.
 
A Baptist would say that by faith we are adopted as children of God and because we are his Children there is nothing we can do to be un-adopted. God will discipline us and do everything possible to bring us to a right relationship with Him. But even if we totally reject the faith we are still his child because you can’t undo an adoption. The doctrine of once saved always saved could be reworded “Once a child of God always a Child of God”.
And I guess this is why the debate continues because there are strong points on both sides. To me this is the issue with using scripture alone. In the early days of the Church a council would be called and the matter would be decided authoritatively.
 
Do you mean saved as that man never was in Christ at death? Because a person who is in Christ can fall away.
Yes. Was never in Christ.

One can fall away from the faith but is not lost forever. We don’t pass from death to life then death again. We are not adopted and then un-adopted. We aren’t sealed by the Holy Spirit to be unsealed. That is the glorious beauty of the new New Covenent. The Good New. The Gospel. All thanks to Jesus and His finished work. We can never be separated from God’s love.

Now I am not saying that gives us a license to sin. “God forbid!”. We are to live out Jesus’ example out of love for God’s free gift of Grace.

Do our works save us. No! Do they have any part in our salvation. No. Only faith! But does authentic faith come alone? No. Its companion is Godly Kingdom works.
 
Yes. Was never in Christ.

One can fall away from the faith but is not lost forever. We don’t pass from death to life then death again. We are not adopted and then un-adopted. We aren’t sealed by the Holy Spirit to be unsealed. That is the glorious beauty of the new New Covenent. The Good New. The Gospel. All thanks to Jesus and His finished work. We can never be separated from God’s love.

Now I am not saying that gives us a license to sin. “God forbid!”. We are to live out Jesus’ example out of love for God’s free gift of Grace.

Do our works save us. No! Do they have any part in our salvation. No. Only faith! But does authentic faith come alone? No. Its companion is Godly Kingdom works.
And if a Christian decides to commit murder?
 
One can fall away from the faith but is not lost forever.
“For it is *impossible *for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” 2 Peter 2:20,21 NKJV

“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die." Ezekiel 18:24 NKJV
We can never be separated from God’s love.
“If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death.” 1 John 5:16 NKJV
Now I am not saying that gives us a license to sin. “God forbid!”. We are to live out Jesus’ example out of love for God’s free gift of Grace.
If we can never be separated from God’s love, even through deadly sin, then why “live out Jesus’ example out of love for God’s free gift of Grace”?
Do our works save us. No! Do they have any part in our salvation. No. Only faith! But does authentic faith come alone? No. Its companion is Godly Kingdom works.
According to Scripture alone, are we justified by faith only?
 
And if a Christian decides to commit murder?
Look at David. He committed adultery and was a conspirator to murder. Yet he was redeemed under the Old Covenant. And we have yet a better and New Covenant for sin. Redeemed is redeemed. You are saved, or you are not.

Going back to the original premise of the thread. Look at all the times Jesus healed someone or forgave them of their sins. Not once did he say, “Good job on completing that task. It has saved you.” He only said, “Your faith has saved you.” or “Your faith has healed you.”

The thief on the cross is even a better example of how faith-only saves. He did NOTHING but believe in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise. He was most likely a rotten-lowdown-sinner, but he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work.
 
Look at David. He committed adultery and was a conspirator to murder. Yet he was redeemed under the Old Covenant. And we have yet a better and New Covenant for sin. Redeemed is redeemed. You are saved, or you are not.

You may have missed it, but David as only saved after his repentance and absolution by Nathan…but there were consequences for King David, after he was forgiven.
The thief on the cross is even a better example of how faith-only saves. He did NOTHING but believe in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise. He was most likely a rotten-lowdown-sinner, but he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work.
 
The thief on the cross is even a better example of how faith-only saves. He did NOTHING but believe in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise. He was most likely a rotten-lowdown-sinner, but he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work.
His torturous death on the cross also help to redeem him.
 
His torturous death on the cross also help to redeem him.
He admonished the thief and professed his faith in Jesus’s innocence. He expresses hope that Jesus will remember him in His kingdom. The good thief had faith, hope and love.
 
Judas received the gift of initial justification, and he still ended up in hell. After the Bread of Life discourse, Peter told Him, “To whom shall we go?” Jesus responded, “I chose twelve of you, and yet one of you is a devil.”
 
He admonished the thief and professed his faith in Jesus’s innocence. He expresses hope that Jesus will remember him in His kingdom. The good thief had faith, hope and love.
Yeah,and that too. 😉
 
Another reminder: Jesus’s sacrifice doesn’t cover us if we persist in sin.
 
Here is the whole passage:

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way,** faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead**.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I think that faith and works must be connected. True faith produces works. I have always been taught at my “Protestant” churches to live a life of faith – which means trusting in God and therefore worshiping and serving God with my whole life. This whole concept seemed pretty natural and straightforward. I think the confusion can come in when somebody goes too far to one extreme and tries to separate faith and works.

When I read about the system of penances and indulgences at the time before the reformation, I just see an image of a legal balance. On one side of the balance is all of the sins one has accumulated in his life; on the other side is all the good works including penances and indulgences that were earned. When one dies the weights are checked. If the person is a saint, the extra merits can be transferred to others by the form of an indulgence. Most people have more weight on the sin side and they must go to purgatory to make up for the balance of sin remaining. I understand that this system has been reformed, but is still present in some form today. This system seems to reflect a notion where people can work-off their sins by doing good deeds. However, no amount of good deeds can ever remove the stain of sin. The only way sin has ever been removed has been through the shedding of the blood of a sacrifice. If we think we can somehow do enough good deeds to erase our sins, then we seem to be reflecting an understanding that we don’t need Jesus’ sacrifice – we can just be “good enough.” This is clearly not the understanding of the Gospel.

On the other hand, if one defines faith as an occasional insincere verbal affirmation, then we are also mistaken. From verse 19 above we see that even the demons ‘believe’ in God. We need to do more than verbally affirming that we believe in God. We need to put our trust in Him and follow Him wherever He calls. It would be nice if I sent my mom a fancy, sparkly card for Mother’s Day that states that I love her. But if my mom later calls me and asks me to help her, but I decide I would rather watch TV instead of helping her, would it seem that I really love her? If all throughout the year I repeatedly disregard her requests for help, but just send occasional nice sentiments at holidays, would anyone think that I truly love her? This is just an imperfect earthly mother. If we say we love the perfect God and make our faith in Him the first priority in our lives, we would expect to see that reflected in the lives we lead. If we pursue a relationship with God and continually seek Him, our faith will produce evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

I had never had any problem with this passage in James. Living a life of service to God was always something I assumed would be natural for anyone who TRULY puts their faith in God. I think most Christians’ beliefs are somewhere in between the 2 extremes. I think many of us would agree on this more than they realize, despite phrasing it in different ways.

“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” - credited to Martin Luther
Thanks susanlo. To me, the talk of merit, indulgences, and the like adds confusion.
Exactly. 👍

It is what the Bible says, not its extrapolation.

It is both faith and work, not one without the other.

If it is faith alone and without work, it is a dead faith.

If it is work alone and without faith, well, one cannot buys one’s way to heaven.

So it is both faith and work, exactly what the Bible says. I am glad that the Catholic Church takes this teaching, very Biblical and very accurate.
👍

Here is an example of St. Paul expressing the same principle as St James:

1 Cor 15
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.
 
Another reminder: Jesus’s sacrifice doesn’t cover us if we persist in sin.
I agree. I think this is why St Paul told the faithful to “work out your salvation in fear and trenbling”. His approach to living faithful used phrases like “unless you suffer with Him” and “if you hold fast”. He was careful not to lead us to think that grace was deserved, or can ever be forgotten. But he also let us know that living by faith is not lawless and means suffering for righteousness.

Faith is not opposed to the law, but recognizes that according to the law, we deserve eternal separation from God. The law of Christ has set us free from that imprisonment. Jesus fulfilled the law and so we are justified by Him. If we are in Him, He will work in us. If He does not work in us, we are denying Him.
 
Judas received the gift of initial justification, and he still ended up in hell. After the Bread of Life discourse, Peter told Him, “To whom shall we go?” Jesus responded, “I chose twelve of you, and yet one of you is a devil.”
Judas never received justification. In all the NT, we see he was a devil from the beginning. Every time Judas is mention, God is sure to qualify in His Word even though he was a disciple of Jesus, he was a superficial believer. You could say Judas had a dead faith.
 
pablope;14623870:
David was a man of God prior to those sins. He was not saved “after” those sins. And yes, there are consequences in this life for our sins even after we are saved.

Luke 23:43 - I didn’t say Heaven. His Spirit went to Paradise, the good side of Sheol/Hades. The bosom of Abraham.

And Jesus was on the earth between His resurrection and ascension.

Question for you: can you show me one authentic person of God who lost their salvation (OT or NT)? Can you show me one person who “worked” for their salvation? A work done at the time of their conversion that saved them? Can you show me one time where Jesus didn’t point to someone’s faith when He said they were saved or healed?
David repented and did penance.

Would you at least agree that a Christian needs to repent after committing sin?
 
Judas never received justification. In all the NT, we see he was a devil from the beginning. Every time Judas is mention, God is sure to qualify in His Word even though he was a disciple of Jesus, he was a superficial believer. You could say Judas had a dead faith.
He was chosen by Jesus and he was given the authority of an Apostle. Sounds justified to me. According to Jesus, “I haven’t lost any of those you gave me, except for the one destined to be lost.” Judas was chosen but he fell away.
 
pablope;14623870:
David was a man of God prior to those sins. He was not saved “after” those sins. And yes, there are consequences in this life for our sins even after we are saved.

Luke 23:43 - I didn’t say Heaven. His Spirit went to Paradise, the good side of Sheol/Hades. The bosom of Abraham.

And Jesus was on the earth between His resurrection and ascension.

Question for you: can you show me one authentic person of God who lost their salvation (OT or NT)? Can you show me one person who “worked” for their salvation? A work done at the time of their conversion that saved them? Can you show me one time where Jesus didn’t point to someone’s faith when He said they were saved or healed?
Malchus was one time, and as for your first question, didn’t God say through Ezekiel that if a man is good and falls away, his good deeds count for nothing? Ananias and Sapphira were justified: they received baptism, but they fell away. We don’t work for our salvation: We work out our salvation. We need faith, hope, and love, not faith alone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top