Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[AugustTherese]

Look at David. He committed adultery and was a conspirator to murder. Yet he was redeemed under the Old Covenant. And we have yet a better and New Covenant for sin.

I am wondering how you are attempting to use “redeemed” in your comment, especially “under the Old Covenant”. King David is/was not redeemed without the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, redemption does not universally forgive your sins, but rather, repentance through confession, such as David explicitly expressed in Psalm 51, gives you absolution of your sins:

“***If *** we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 NKJV

Redeemed is redeemed.

“Redeemed is redeemed”: yes, I agree with this. Redemption is universal as Jesus Christ has redeemed all humanity. I hope you are not confusing redemption with salvation or justification.

Your are saved, or you are not.

We are presently in the process of being saved:

“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 NKJV

“For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.” 2 Corinthians 2:15 NKJV

We have the hope that we shall be saved and will be saved:

“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” Romans 5:9,10 NKJV

“If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” 2 Corinthians 3:15 NKJV

And, perhaps most importantly, we are to work our of own salvation:

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12 NKJV

Going back to the original premise of the thread. Look at all the times Jesus healed someone or forgave them of their sins. Not once did he say, “Good job on completing that task. It has saved you.” He only said, “Your faith has saved you.” or “Your faith has healed you.”

It’s interesting how you used this as an argument for ‘faith alone’. Was not Jesus capable of seeing people’s faith without their words and/or works? Why did He not heal those who had faith without waiting for them to come to Him with their words and/or actions?

“Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but*** this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in***. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this*** woman has anointed My feet*** with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little… Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” Luke 7: 44-47,50 NKJV

Her faith was accompanied by her works of love, i.e. “she has washed my feet” and more importantly, “for she loved much”. She did not have to do this for Jesus to know her faith, as Our Lord sees and knows everyone’s heart. But, because “she loved much” and “washed [His] feet”, then “[her] faith has saved [her]”.

“Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” James 2:22 NKJV

"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:37 NKJV

The thief on the cross is even a better example of how faith-only saves. He did NOTHING but believe in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise. He was most likely a rotten-lowdown-sinner, but he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work.

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:39-43 NKJV

The thief on the cross is known as the *penitent * thief. He did more than “NOTHING”. He rebuked the other thief (spiritual work of mercy), repented of his sins with true contrition (confession), and publicly proclaimed his faith in the Lord (confirmation). Given that he was nailed to a cross, he did more than most sinners do in their entire lifetime.

 

[pablope]

David was a man of God prior to those sins. He was not saved “after” those sins. And yes, there are consequences in this life for our sins even after we are saved.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Another good word to use for dead is FALSE.

I have a terrific thesaurus, J.I. Rodale’s The Synonym Finder. I looked up “dead” as an adjective in it. Rodale gives 210 synonyms. Not one of them is the word “false.”

To be fair, I then looked up “false.” Rodale gives 123 synonyms, and not one of them is “dead.”

 

[Tommy999]

When I was a new Christian and asked a question about salvation to my evangelical mentor, he explained it as follows. He said that as Christians, we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved in the following analogy. Please critique it and let me know if it has merit or is misguided in any way. .

Analogy:
A person is lost at sea. He calls out for help and a boat that heard his cry comes to him and throws him a lifesaver. Once he is holding securely on to the lifesaver, the person explains, “I’ve been saved”. As he is being pulled in to the boat, he is being saved, and when he arrives back to dry land he can say he is finally saved. .

In similar fashion, the person who contritely repents of his sins and calls out to God to save him is saved in the sense that he has latched on to the source of his salvation and embraces it (Jesus).

He then can say that he is being saved as he lives out his Christian faith and grows closer to God during the rest of his life, as he continues to live a life of repentance, worshiping and honoring God and his Church with his time and talents, and loving other people as himself, according to The Golden Rule.

Finally, as he continues to live an honorable Christian life of faith and repentance, his life on earth eventually comes to an end and he arrives in heaven (directly or through purgatory) and exclaims, “I am saved”,

Note:
At any point after the initial salvation experience, he can voluntarily let go of his lifesaver and swim away from God if he so chooses because he has a free will and God will not force him to hold on to Him.

 

[ajcstr]

Getting back to James, I have to honestly say I can’t understand the arguments around the verse in question.

If works complete faith wouldn’t faith without works be incomplete?

If James describes 2 “types” of faith, one that cannot save and one that can, and the difference is that one that can save includes works doesn’t that mean works are necessary?

If James states we are NOT justified by faith alone, how can anyone say we are justified by faith alone?

If you want to substitute the word “sanctification” for “justification” in James, that’s fine but it still seems to me that works are necessary.

 

[PluniaZ]

Getting back to James, I have to honestly say I can’t understand the arguments around the verse in question.

If works complete faith wouldn’t faith without works be incomplete?

If James describes 2 “types” of faith, one that cannot save and one that can, and the difference is that one that can save includes works doesn’t that mean works are necessary?

If James states we are NOT justified by faith alone, how can anyone say we are justified by faith alone?

If you want to substitute the word “sanctification” for “justification” in James, that’s fine but it still seems to me that works are necessary.

You’re exactly right. No one before the Reformation said James was discussing different kinds of faith. You can look up exactly what the Church Fathers thought about James 2 with this online resource:

clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/fbf.htm#l

 

[Peter_J]

When I was a new Christian and asked a question about salvation to my evangelical mentor, he explained it as follows. He said that as Christians, we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved in the following analogy. Please critique it and let me know if it has merit or is misguided in any way. .

Analogy:
A person is lost at sea. He calls out for help and a boat that heard his cry comes to him and throws him a lifesaver. Once he is holding securely on to the lifesaver, the person explains, “I’ve been saved”. As he is being pulled in to the boat, he is being saved, and when he arrives back to dry land he can say he is finally saved. .

In similar fashion, the person who contritely repents of his sins and calls out to God to save him is saved in the sense that he has latched on to the source of his salvation and embraces it (Jesus).

He then can say that he is being saved as he lives out his Christian faith and grows closer to God during the rest of his life, as he continues to live a life of repentance, worshiping and honoring God and his Church with his time and talents, and loving other people as himself, according to The Golden Rule.

Finally, as he continues to live an honorable Christian life of faith and repentance, his life on earth eventually comes to an end and he arrives in heaven (directly or through purgatory) and exclaims, “I am saved”,

Note:
At any point after the initial salvation experience, he can voluntarily let go of his lifesaver and swim away from God if he so chooses because he has a free will and God will not force him to hold on to Him.

Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Reuben_J]

Getting back to James, I have to honestly say I can’t understand the arguments around the verse in question.

If works complete faith wouldn’t faith without works be incomplete?

If James describes 2 “types” of faith, one that cannot save and one that can, and the difference is that one that can save includes works doesn’t that mean works are necessary?

If James states we are NOT justified by faith alone, how can anyone say we are justified by faith alone?

If you want to substitute the word “sanctification” for “justification” in James, that’s fine but it still seems to me that works are necessary.

Agreed. There is no two ways about it without going into gymnastic.

I would always think that if one starts explaining the Bible in a roundabout way, making it very complicated when the verse is very simple and clear, there is something not right with the explanation. And this is one of them, sorry to say.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1. You said:

The thief on the cross first mocked Jesus and then later believed. He did nothing but have faith in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work. He was justified by his faith. He went from 0 to 1.

Since this thread concerns justification by faith “alone” . . .

. . . . Are you saying you think the Good Thief was justified by faith “alone” (if you are saying this, how do you support that view) or justified by “faith”.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1. You also said . . . .

One can fall away from the faith but is not lost forever. We don’t pass from death to life then death again. We are not adopted and then un-adopted. We aren’t sealed by the Holy Spirit to be unsealed. That is the glorious beauty of the new New Covenent. The Good New. The Gospel. All thanks to Jesus and His finished work. We can never be separated from God’s love.

But nobody here is talking about being separated from God’s “love”.

What mortal sin does is separate you from God’s LIFE.

We don’t pass from death to life then death again.

Sure you can. That’s what the story of the Prodigal Son was about drblank1. This son of the father repented and was brought back to life, but not everybody necessarily does that.

Consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 6. Jesus is just finishing teaching about the Our Father Prayer.

MATTHEW 6:12-13 12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Now let’s keep listening, because Jesus is going to warn us about a situation where we won’t get our sins forgiven if we don’t do something. What could that something be?

MATTHEW 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, YOUR Father will not forgive your sins.

If we don’t forgive sins we won’t be forgiven either!

And Jesus is addressing people who already have God as THEIR FATHER – People WHO ARE SAVED!

These people are followers of Christ who we are specifically told have God as “THEIR FATHER”.

God will not forgive these people who have God as their FATHER, if they don’t forgive!

These are the words of God almighty in the Flesh!

Matthew 6:12-15 does not teach or suggest OSAS (nor does any verse).

 

[PRmerger]

You are saved, or you are not.

No one is saved until he is standing before the Eternal Throne, radiant in the Beatific Vision.

 

[Cathoholic]

drblank1. You said Judas “was a devil from the beginning.”

he was a devil from the beginning.

This is NOT in Scripture.

Are you confusing this with John 6:70?

Of course Jesus is God and KNEW EVERYTHING from the beginning.

But where does Scripture say Judas “was a devil from the beginning”?

JOHN 6:70 (NIV) Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

JOHN 6:70 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

JOHN 6:70 (ASV) Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

[pablope]

When I was a new Christian and asked a question about salvation to my evangelical mentor, he explained it as follows. He said that as Christians, we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved in the following analogy. Please critique it and let me know if it has merit or is misguided in any way. .

Analogy:
A person is lost at sea. He calls out for help and a boat that heard his cry comes to him and throws him a lifesaver. Once he is holding securely on to the lifesaver, the person explains, “I’ve been saved”. As he is being pulled in to the boat, he is being saved, and when he arrives back to dry land he can say he is finally saved. .

In similar fashion, the person who contritely repents of his sins and calls out to God to save him is saved in the sense that he has latched on to the source of his salvation and embraces it (Jesus).

He then can say that he is being saved as he lives out his Christian faith and grows closer to God during the rest of his life, as he continues to live a life of repentance, worshiping and honoring God and his Church with his time and talents, and loving other people as himself, according to The Golden Rule.

Finally, as he continues to live an honorable Christian life of faith and repentance, his life on earth eventually comes to an end and he arrives in heaven (directly or through purgatory) and exclaims, “I am saved”,

Note:
At any point after the initial salvation experience, he can voluntarily let go of his lifesaver and swim away from God if he so chooses because he has a free will and God will not force him to hold on to Him.

Hi, Tommy…I was just wondering…did you get this from a Catholic source?

 

[Kliska]

Hi, Tommy…I was just wondering…did you get this from a Catholic source?

Tommy has “Methodist” on his profile; so, I imagine it is a John Wesley-ish inspired source… not all protestants are Calvinist.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

When I was a new Christian and asked a question about salvation to my evangelical mentor, he explained it as follows. He said that as Christians, we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved in the following analogy. Please critique it and let me know if it has merit or is misguided in any way. .

Analogy:
A person is lost at sea. He calls out for help and a boat that heard his cry comes to him and throws him a lifesaver. Once he is holding securely on to the lifesaver, the person explains, “I’ve been saved”. As he is being pulled in to the boat, he is being saved, and when he arrives back to dry land he can say he is finally saved. .

In similar fashion, the person who contritely repents of his sins and calls out to God to save him is saved in the sense that he has latched on to the source of his salvation and embraces it (Jesus).

He then can say that he is being saved as he lives out his Christian faith and grows closer to God during the rest of his life, as he continues to live a life of repentance, worshiping and honoring God and his Church with his time and talents, and loving other people as himself, according to The Golden Rule.

Finally, as he continues to live an honorable Christian life of faith and repentance, his life on earth eventually comes to an end and he arrives in heaven (directly or through purgatory) and exclaims, “I am saved”,

Note:
At any point after the initial salvation experience, he can voluntarily let go of his lifesaver and swim away from God if he so chooses because he has a free will and God will not force him to hold on to Him.

Yup.

Actually heard a protestant explain it very well by saying if you are in a plane that is about to crash…you cant just say i believe in this parachute…you have to put it on, jump out and believe it will work for you…so you have to do stuff in order to have true faith.

He’s anti-Catholic so I don’t know if he realizes it but he articulated our position very well.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but** faith working through love**.

 

[lanman87]

Yup.

Actually heard a protestant explain it very well by saying if you are in a plane that is about to crash…you cant just say i believe in this parachute…you have to put it on, jump out and believe it will work for you…so you have to do stuff in order to have true faith.

He’s anti-Catholic so I don’t know if he realizes it but he articulated our position very well.

I believe that many Catholics don’t grasp what Protestants mean by faith. Faith is not an intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. It is not even agreeing with the intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. As R.C. Sproul put it, those two things only qualify a person to be a demon.

Saving faith is far more than understanding and agreeing about Jesus. Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ. When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations. Because of our faith our attitudes and actions are changed. We can no longer enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. We wrestle with the sin nature within us and hate sin. When we have faith we are showered with Grace and because of our faith Christ takes on the penalty of our sins. God begins a work within us to conform us to the image of Christ. Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

It seems to me that Paul and James both had the same purpose. To point people to that kind of life changing faith. The churches at Rome and Galatia had both been influenced to “follow the Law”. Paul was telling them that trying to earn salvation by following the law is wrong, because salvation is a free gift that we receive by faith. You can’t earn favor with God. God looks at our heart instead of our actions. He sees what is really inside of us. It doesn’t do us any good to do all the “good works” under the sun, if our heart is not right then they are useless.

James was telling his audience that just saying you have faith and then not having works shows you don’t have faith. You are saying one thing and doing another. It shows that you’ve never really been changed. You’ve never really trusted in Christ because your life shows that you haven’t been changed. That if you had true faith then you would help a brother or sister who is poorly clothed and lacking food, because a truth faith changes you. It changes who you are and it changes what you do. You can say you have faith all day long, but if your heart isn’t right then your words are useless.

Both their messages are as true today and it was in the first century. We have many people in our churches (both protestant and RCC) that are there because they think they can earn favor from God. They think if they do enough good things or give enough money then God will have favor on them and they will be saved. Outwardly they may say and do all the right things but inwardly they have never been changed. They have never placed their total trust in Christ. Their heart is not right with God.

We also have people in our churches who claim to have faith, yet there life shows they don’t. They haven’t been changed. Maybe they come to church sporadically and refuse to help in ministry and evangelism. They are the kind that say “I believe in Jesus” but also say that they are closer to God on the golf course on Sunday morning than they are in church. They come on Easter and Christmas and rarely support the ministry of the Church. They give lip service to things of faith, but their heart is not right with God.

Both Paul and James call people in both those camps to come to a life changing faith in Christ. The kind of faith that changes our hearts, attitudes and actions. The kind of faith in which we completely surrender to Christ and His purposes.

 

[AugustTherese]

God looks at our heart instead of our actions. He sees what is really inside of us. It doesn’t do us any good to do all the “good works” under the sun, if our heart is not right then they are useless.

Then why does Scripture alone explicitly state that we will be judged by our works?

 

[ajcstr]

Saving faith is far more than understanding and agreeing about Jesus. Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ.

Would you agree that Faith also include fidelity as well as belief and trust.

When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations. Because of our faith our attitudes and actions are changed. We can no longer enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. We wrestle with the sin nature within us and hate sin. When we have faith we are showered with Grace and because of our faith Christ takes on the penalty of our sins. God begins a work within us to conform us to the image of Christ. Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

I’m with you up until the last sentence. Can’t sin separate us from God (maybe not from His love but from Him) ? See 1 Cor 6:9 and Matt 5:30. I have never heard a Protestant or Catholic claim that we would ever stop sinning even if saved under your definition of the term so is the sin ignored or does it indicate we don’t really have Faith?

If our attitudes and actions change is none of that our response to grace? If not how would you term it? Is God offering me the grace to do a good work or is he doing the work for/through me?

 

[PluniaZ]

Faith is -]not/-] an intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. It is -]not even/-] agreeing with the intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done.

Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ. When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations. Because of our faith our attitudes and actions are changed. We can no longer enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. We wrestle with the sin nature within us and hate sin. When we have faith we are showered with Grace -]and because of our faith Christ takes on the penalty of our sins/-]. God begins a work within us to conform us to the image of Christ. Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

**But if we, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, our last condition is worse than the first. For it would have been better for us not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to us. What is expressed in the true proverb would happen to us, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

2 Peter Chapter 2**

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I believe that many Catholics don’t grasp what Protestants mean by faith. Faith is not an intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. It is not even agreeing with the intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. As R.C. Sproul put it, those two things only qualify a person to be a demon.

Saving faith is far more than understanding and agreeing about Jesus. Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ. When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations. Because of our faith our attitudes and actions are changed. We can no longer enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. We wrestle with the sin nature within us and hate sin. When we have faith we are showered with Grace and because of our faith Christ takes on the penalty of our sins. God begins a work within us to conform us to the image of Christ. Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

Hi Ian

As someone else said, I’m with all that until the last sentence. I’ve seen Christians who were backslidden like crazy and can not believe that if they die in that horrible state they have not separated themselves from God. But OSAS is a whole other topic.

I think we RCC/P’s are actually saying the same thing about saving faith just speaking different languages. Sometimes yes, Catholics may not understand the P’s properly…but it’s also true that P’s sometimes fail to understand what was actually said at the council of Trent and so they fail to get the RCC position. Really, what it boils down to is, if somebody wanted to convict us for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence there for that to happen?

It seems to me that Paul and James both had the same purpose. To point people to that kind of life changing faith. The churches at Rome and Galatia had both been influenced to “follow the Law”. Paul was telling them that trying to earn salvation by following the law is wrong, because salvation is a free gift that we receive by faith. You can’t earn favor with God. God looks at our heart instead of our actions. He sees what is really inside of us. ** It doesn’t do us any good to do all the “good works” under the sun, if our heart is not right then they are useless.**

Yes, if the works are in that sort of context, then they are but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) But if we have a circumcised heart and our works are done responding to that grace given through Christ Jesus, then they become a fragrant offering to the Father. (Eph 5:2)

Both their messages are as true today and it was in the first century. We have many people in our churches (both protestant and RCC) that are there because they think they can earn favor from God. They think if they do enough good things or give enough money then God will have favor on them and they will be saved. Outwardly they may say and do all the right things but inwardly they have never been changed. They have never placed their total trust in Christ. Their heart is not right with God.

Would agree with that. You have the pew sitter Catholics who don’t seem to ever change and the Joel Osteen type Protestants who mainly seem to be very nominal as well. Wrong ideas about who God is and our standing with Him are abound…