Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[lanman87]

Faith is not an intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done. It is not even agreeing with the intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done.

Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ. When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations. Because of our faith our attitudes and actions are changed. We can no longer enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. We wrestle with the sin nature within us and hate sin. When we have faith we are showered with Grace and because of our faith Christ takes on the penalty of our sins. God begins a work within us to conform us to the image of Christ. Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

But if we, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, our last condition is worse than the first. For it would have been better for us not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to us. What is expressed in the true proverb would happen to us, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.”

2 Peter Chapter 2

I think you missed the point. I should have said that faith is not just an intellectual belief and not just agreement on who Jesus is and what he has done. It is those things plus absolute trust in Christ.

Do you not believe that Jesus took the penalty for our sins?

 

[Cathoholic]

lanman87:

I believe that many Catholics don’t grasp what Protestants mean by faith. Faith is not an intellectual belief about who Jesus is and what he has done.

I get that lanman87. This is the case for SOME Bible-only Christians (not all of them).

You stated . . . .

Saving faith is far more than understanding and agreeing about Jesus. Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing. It moves us from being spiritually dead to being alive in Christ. When we totally trust in Christ He adopts us into his family and makes us new creations.

Absolutely!

Because of our faith our . . . actions are changed.

OK. But what if actions aren’t changed? Or what if they are changed then someone decides to go back to his/her old ways i.e. commits murder or adultery or some such?

Or what if they even decide to NOT forgive their brethren?

Or what if Jesus is “naked” or “hungry” and you choose not to feed Him (in the least of His brethren)?

Then what? Do you HAVE TO work?

And if you HAVE TO allow God to WORK in you (which is what Catholics are talking about or “grace works”) then why say you are justified by “faith ALONE”?

Especially since St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE.
And St. James specifically says you are** NOT** justified by faith alone?

So WHY say that?

Because of faith we are totally and fully placed within Christ and we are no longer under condemnation and nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

But in mortal sin, nobody (here) is talking about being separated from the “love” of Christ.

We are talking about choosing to be separated from the LIFE of Christ.

 

[lanman87]

Would you agree that Faith also include fidelity as well as belief and trust.

Fidelity i.e. faithfulness is certainly an ongoing process. We come to faith and we live a life of faithfulness. I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise.

I’m with you up until the last sentence. Can’t sin separate us from God (maybe not from His love but from Him) ? See 1 Cor 6:9 and Matt 5:30. I have never heard a Protestant or Catholic claim that we would ever stop sinning even if saved under your definition of the term so is the sin ignored or does it indicate we don’t really have Faith?

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-3 ESV

2 But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23 ESV

Jesus changed the rules. We are no longer under the law of sin and death. Under the old rules righteousness was obtained by “following the rules”. We can never be righteous by “following the rules”. . Any effort to attain a right standing with God on our on is futile. If we could do it by following the “rules” then there was no need for Jesus to come. We could have just followed the Old Testament law and been fine. Instead, by faith with have placed ourselves totally upon the work of Christ, by faith we have given ourselves to God (become slaves of God) and the gift (a gift can’t be earned or it is not a gift) is Eternal Life.

I’ve never heard anyone, even staunch OSAS believers say it is okay to continue in sin. I do however hear them say that we are to live in the Spirit instead of the flesh. We are to to be dead to sin and live for God in Christ Jesus. God calls us to be transformed into the image of Christ. His Spirit convicts us of personal sin and leads us to live faithful lives. I always hear folks say that if you believe in faith alone or OSAS that it is okay to do whatever you want. That is not what Protestant churches teach. Protestant churches teach that we are to turn away from sin and live lives worthy of the calling we have been given.

If our attitudes and actions change is none of that our response to grace? If not how would you term it? Is God offering me the grace to do a good work or is he doing the work for/through me?

Faith is a response to Grace. It is us accepting the gift of God. When we accept the gift of Grace through faith then God begins a work within us that compels us to do works external from us. He gives us grace so that we can do works in faith. We don’t do works so we can get grace. To do works to obtain grace means that grace is not a gift, but a wage.

 

[ajcstr]

I think you missed the point. I should have said that faith is not just an intellectual belief and not just agreement on who Jesus is and what he has done. It is those things plus absolute trust in Christ.

I still think fidelity needs to be added here and that’s where works come into play.

Do you not believe that Jesus took the penalty for our sins?

Yes but I’m guessing not in the same way you do. He restored our relationship with God that was lost through original sin. I’m sure you believe that sanctification is part of our salvation. What would be the need for sanctification if any sins we would commit do not matter?

 

[James248]

Do you not believe that Jesus took the penalty for our sins?

He died for more than that.

He died as an example we should follow if we want to remain in Him. He died so we could be able to partake of the Divine Nature. He died so that we could not just be free: He died so that we might become rich!

 

[Cathoholic]

lanman87. You alluded to Romans 8:1 etc.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

As a Catholic I AFFIRM there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

But there IS condemnation for someone who WAS in Christ Jesus, who now decides he/she no longer desires to REMAIN in Christ Jesus.

And thus they cut themselves off from the LIFE of Christ Jesus by choosing not to REMAIN in Christ Jesus.

For them, without repentance, there IS condemnation.

We as Catholics are NOT talking about people who are in Christ Jesus (nor is the Bible). The Bible NOWHERE teaches Eternal Security.

 

[Cathoholic]

lanman87. You asked . . .

Do you not believe that Jesus took the penalty for our sins?

Yes of course I believe Jesus took the penalty for our sins.

The question is WHY did He take the penalty for our sins?

And a pretty standard Protestant answer is “so we don’t have to.”

There is a sense that this response is true, but there is another sense where this by itself, doesn’t go far enough.

The question is WHY did He take the penalty for our sins?

And a pretty standard Catholic answer is “so we can be IN Christ Jesus” and thus live with Him, have joy with Him, serve Him, suffer wth Him, and eventually die IN Him so we can be raised with Him and Glorified with Him.

THAT is what St. Paul teaches. That is what the Bible teaches, and that is what the Church teaches.

ROMANS 6:3-5 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

ROMANS 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

COLOSSIANS 1:24 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church . . .

Protestants frequently seem to look at justification as mere forgiveness of sins.

Catholics see this too, but there is also “Divine Filiation”. We are made sons and daughters of God in Christ.

As Steve Wood once said, “See how big a deal a Protestant makes out of salvation being sons and daughters of God, and I will be able to tell how close they are to the Catholic faith”.

lanman87. In reading your posts I think YOU make a big deal out of being a son or daughter of God IN Christ:thumbsup:.

 

[lanman87]

lanman87:

OK. But what if actions aren’t changed? Or what if they are changed then someone decides to go back to his/her old ways i.e. commits murder or adultery or some such?

Or what if they even decide to NOT forgive their brethren?

Or what if Jesus is “naked” or “hungry” and you choose not to feed Him (in the least of His brethren)?

Then what? Do you HAVE TO work?

And if you HAVE TO allow God to WORK in you (which is what Catholics are talking about or “grace works”) then why say you are justified by “faith ALONE”?

Especially since St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE.
And St. James specifically says you are** NOT** justified by faith alone?

So WHY say that?

But in mortal sin, nobody (here) is talking about being separated from the “love” of Christ.

We are talking about choosing to be separated from the LIFE of Christ.

Because of Romans 3:21-25

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

Because of Romans 5:17

For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the **free gift of righteousness **reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Because of Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the **free gift of God **is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

If something is a free gift then it cannot be earned.

Romans 4:4

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Either Paul is right and grace, righteousness and Eternal Life are gifts that cannot be earned or James is right and we earn justification by works. If either are wrong then we a contradiction in the inspired Word of God and we are all just wasting our time.

The weight of scripture clearly teaches that salvation (Grace, Righteousness, Justification, Eternal Life) is a free gift that is obtained by faith and the context of James is clearly teaching about people claiming to have faith but the evidence of their life, there fruit if you will, shows otherwise.

 

[ajcstr]

Fidelity i.e. faithfulness is certainly an ongoing process. We come to faith and we live a life of faithfulness. I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise.

So isn’t fidelity = obedience = works ? Walking in the works that God has prepared for us.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-3 ESV

2 But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23 ESV

Jesus changed the rules. We are no longer under the law of sin and death. Under the old rules righteousness was obtained by “following the rules”. We can never be righteous by “following the rules”. .

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Romans 6:16 ESV

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. Romans 6:22 ESV (here I think the point is that we must be servants of God)

Any effort to attain a right standing with God on our on is futile. If we could do it by following the “rules” then there was no need for Jesus to come. We could have just followed the Old Testament law and been fine. Instead, by faith with have placed ourselves totally upon the work of Christ, by faith we have given ourselves to God (become slaves of God) and the gift (a gift can’t be earned or it is not a gift) is Eternal Life.

As far as initial justification goes… Amen

As far as progressive justification/sanctification goes I’ll lean on the fidelity/obedience/works statement I made earlier. But understand, we are not talking about “earning” anything, not a point system. But we need to stay in grace.

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22 ESV (emphasis mine)

I’ve never heard anyone, even staunch OSAS believers say it is okay to continue in sin. I do however hear them say that we are to live in the Spirit instead of the flesh. We are to to be dead to sin and live for God in Christ Jesus. God calls us to be transformed into the image of Christ. His Spirit convicts us of personal sin and leads us to live faithful lives.

See, this is a fine line you are walking on here. Now we know no one can be free of sin, but when one turns from sin doesn’t that lead them to good works? Again see Romans 6:22

I always hear folks say that if you believe in faith alone or OSAS that it is okay to do whatever you want. That is not what Protestant churches teach. Protestant churches teach that we are to turn away from sin and live lives worthy of the calling we have been given.

If you ever listen to Pastor Steven Anderson, I’m not so sure.

Faith is a response to Grace. It is us accepting the gift of God. When we accept the gift of Grace through faith then God begins a work within us that compels us to do works external from us. He gives us grace so that we can do works in faith. We don’t do works so we can get grace. To do works to obtain grace means that grace is not a gift, but a wage.

Amen ! I would just add that works are a response to Grace also - and James agrees when he says faith is completed by works.

---

LOL, look we can go toe to toe but this has been going on for 500 years. There is probably no point that either of us is going to make that will make the other say “oh yeah”. I actually see the exact same thing when listening to debates between Calvinist and non-Calvinist protestants. I just try to point out when I can that if you think the Catholic Church teaches that we can earn our salvation that is not a valid portrayal of Catholic theology. And frankly, I have heard several arguments using Paul that have made me think, but with James I personally don’t see any way around the fact that he is saying good works complete faith and are necessary for salvation.

 

[lanman87]

S

LOL, look we can go toe to toe but this has been going on for 500 years. There is probably no point that either of us is going to make that will make the other say “oh yeah”. I actually see the exact same thing when listening to debates between Calvinist and non-Calvinist protestants. I just try to point out when I can that if you think the Catholic Church teaches that we can earn our salvation that is not a valid portrayal of Catholic theology. And frankly, I have heard several arguments using Paul that have made me think, but with James I personally don’t see any way around the fact that he is saying good works complete faith and are necessary for salvation.

I agree, folks have been arguing this for centuries, We certainly aren’t going to resolve anything on a message board. I’ve learned that Protestants have many misunderstandings about Catholicism but I’ve also learned that Catholics also have misunderstandings about Protestantism. We aren’t as shallow as ya’ll make us out to be. At least, some of us are not.

 

[Cathoholic]

lanman87. I asked . . . .

And if you HAVE TO allow God to WORK in you (which is what Catholics are talking about or “grace works”) then why say you are justified by “faith ALONE”?

Especially since St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE.
And St. James specifically says you are NOT justified by faith alone?

So WHY say that?

lanman87. You said . . . .

Because of Romans 3:21-25

But I affirm we are not justified by “works of Torah” or “works of law” such as “circumcision” as it says in Romans 3.

I also affirm we would not be justified by works of mere natural virtue either.

I also affirm my works do not earn my initial justification (and I hope you don’t think your faith “earns” your initial justification either).

COUNCIL OF TRENT . . . . none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

ROMANS 11:6 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

But Romans 3 does not say you are justified by “faith ALONE”. You had to implicitly ADD that “alone” in to Scripture.

And I am saying it’s not there (“faith ALONE” is not there in an implicit or in an explicit manner).

I affirm my justification is a grace too.

But the graces KEEP GOING after you are initially justified.

THEN you NEED to cooperate with those graces TOGETHER with Jesus allowing Jesus WORKING . . . .IN YOU . . . . as St. Paul reminds us.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

And if you REFUSE to allow those WORKS what does St. Paul WARN YOU of?

He warns you of RECEIVING the GRACE of God in vain! (St. Paul is explicitly addressing this warning to people who have “RECEIVED” Christ—which is WHY He can WORK IN YOU).

And if you REJECT those works, if you refuse to bear fruit, if you refuse to make interest on the “talents”, after your initial “receiving” of grace (by refusing faith or refusing Christ working in you and through you or deciding you WON’T even suffer IN Jesus) than you will throw away your salvation and be cast out where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 5 is irrelevant to my point. Why? Because I already affirm THAT too. I assert salvation is a “free gift”.

But once you get that free gift, once you are given grace, once you are given “talents”, if you REFUSE to GROW in grace, than servants of the Master who have received grace er I mean “talents” er I mean grace will be cast out into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

To whom much is GIVEN . . . . much is REQUIRED (see Luke 12:36).

So the question remains:

** . . . . Considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . . And . . .

St. James explicitly says you are. . . . NOT** justified by faith alone . . . .

. . . . WHY . . . .

. . . . come up with a “formula” that says you are justified by “faith ALONE”?

 

[lanman87]

lanman87.

**

And I am saying it’s not there (“faith ALONE” is not there in an implicit or in an explicit manner).

I affirm my justification is a grace too.

But the graces KEEP GOING after you are initially justified.

THEN you NEED to cooperate with those graces TOGETHER with Jesus allowing Jesus WORKING . . . .IN YOU . . . . as St. Paul reminds us.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1** Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

And if you REFUSE to allow those WORKS what does St. Paul WARN YOU of?

He warns you of RECEIVING the GRACE of God in vain! (St. Paul is explicitly addressing this warning to people who have “RECEIVED” Christ—which is WHY He can WORK IN YOU).

And if you REJECT those works, if you refuse to bear fruit, if you refuse to make interest on the “talents”, after your initial “receiving” of grace (by refusing faith or refusing Christ working in you and through you or deciding you WON’T even suffer IN Jesus) than you will throw away your salvation and be cast out where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 5 is irrelevant to my point. Why? Because I already affirm THAT too. I assert salvation is a “free gift”.

But once you get that free gift, once you are given grace, once you are given “talents”, if you REFUSE to GROW in grace, than servants of the Master who have received grace er I mean “talents” er I mean grace will be cast out into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

To whom much is GIVEN . . . . much is REQUIRED (see Luke 12:36).

So the question remains:

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough. You have to earn more grace by following the rules. (as laid out by the RCC) Just like if you were a Jew and had to follow the Mosaic Law to keep yourself justified before God. Now you have to follow a new law, that while different in form, has the same effect as the Mosaic law.
​

​

 

[Peter_J]

If you ever listen to Pastor Steven Anderson, I’m not so sure.

Who’s Pastor Steven Anderson?

Kidding, course I know who Pastor Steven Anderson is! shaw: But seriously, I’m not sure we can assume that every poster knows. (Granted, I guess it’s no more unfair than when my Protestant friends assume that I know who Jimmy Akin is. )

 

[lanman87]

Who’s Pastor Steven Anderson?

Kidding, course I know who Pastor Steven Anderson is! shaw: But seriously, I’m not sure we can assume that every poster knows. (Granted, I guess it’s no more unfair than when my Protestant friends assume that I know who Jimmy Akin is. )

I have never heard of him.

 

[James248]

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough. You have to earn more grace by following the rules. (as laid out by the RCC) Just like if you were a Jew and had to follow the Mosaic Law to keep yourself justified before God. Now you have to follow a new law, that while different in form, has the same effect as the Mosaic law.

Remember the Parable of the Talents? The lord gave his servants money and the servants had to double it. The servant that didn’t was cast out. We must remain in Jesus’s love.

 

[lanman87]

Is this just an academic debate?

I don’t know many Catholics but the ones I do know I would say have a genuine faith. (Only God knows for sure) Therefore if Protestants are right then they are saved by faith.

I know a bunch of Protestants who do all kinds of good works. If “you shall know them by their fruits” then the Protestants I have been around my entire life are very fruity. If Catholics are rights and we are saved by both faith and works, then most Protestants I know would fall into that category.

 

[PRmerger]

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough.

No, lanman. Grace is always sufficient, but not always efficacious.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Is this just an academic debate?

I don’t know many Catholics but the ones I do know I would say have a genuine faith. (Only God knows for sure) Therefore if Protestants are right then they are saved by faith.

I know a bunch of Protestants who do all kinds of good works. If “you shall know them by their fruits” then the Protestants I have been around my entire life are very fruity. If Catholics are rights and we are saved by both faith and works, then most Protestants I know would fall into that category.

If only it were that black and white though.

If we base it off of the fruit produced then we should all leave our Churches and become Mormon. Seriously, the LDS folks are some of the nicest and generous people I’ve ever met and they claim belief in Jesus… Yet most of us do not consider them to be Christians.

So i guess that’s one the reasons we all post here. To answer many age old questions. Like does doctrine matter? How much does it matter? Is there really such a thing as essential vs non essential Christian beliefs? If so, who determines that and by what authority?

 

[PRmerger]

If only it were that black and white though.

If we base it off of the fruit produced then we should all leave our Churches and become Mormon. Seriously, the LDS folks are some of the nicest and generous people I’ve ever met and they claim belief in Jesus… Yet most of us do not consider them to be Christians.

I was just going to post the above sentiment!

Yep. Let’s not judge a faith by the fruits, because if so, Mormonism is the truest of them all.

I’ve never met a Mormon who wasn’t just the sweetest, most sincere, most earnest, kind-hearted person.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I was just going to post the above sentiment!

Yep. Let’s not judge a faith by the fruits, because if so, Mormonism is the truest of them all.

I’ve never met a Mormon who wasn’t just the sweetest, most sincere, most earnest, kind-hearted person.

And they are some of the most morally upright people you will ever meet as well. I mean they don’t even have the sacraments so it’s a mystery to me how they do it.

And the FBI specifically targets LDS in their recruitment. They obviously only want to employ the most honest individuals they can find.