Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[Cathoholic]

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough. You have to earn more grace by following the rules. (as laid out by the RCC) Just like if you were a Jew and had to follow the Mosaic Law to keep yourself justified before God. Now you have to follow a new law, that while different in form, has the same effect as the Mosaic law.

At this point in the discussion lanman87, I would just ask you to respond to the verses and questions concerning those I placed up.

I am not trying to be combative or anything. But the questions I posed to you are fair and Scripturally based.

How do you harmonize St. Paul’s implicit warnings against justification by faith alone?

Do you NEED to “suffer with Christ” in order to be “glorified with Christ”? St. Paul explicitly says you do. Is there ANY SENSE in your tradition that affirms this?

WHY would St. Paul say such a thing if he thinks you are justified by faith alone?

Of faith, hope, and charity, St. Paul explicitly says charity is greater than faith (in 1st Corinthians 13). WHY would St. Paul say this if he wanted you to come away with justication by faith ALONE?

WHY wouldn’t St. Paul just say: “Faith is MORE important than charity, because after all, you are justified by faith ALONE”?

WHY would St. Paul make up for a “lack” (in some sense) in the sufferings of Christ?

Why would St. Paul in Romans 6 tell us we were “Baptized” into Christ’s death?

Why would Jesus warn us if you don’t “forgive” your “brother”, your FATHER will not forgive YOUR sins? (Notice Jesus is addressing people who DO have God as their “Father”) Is this justification by faith AND forgiveness alone? What about how saved people who have God as their Father CAN’T fall away from grace??

WHY would St. Paul warn us about some sense of some law we ARE to keep, yet imply works of Torah are NOT justifying?

ROMANS 2:13-14 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Do you affirm this teaching from St. Paul in ANY SENSE?

---

These are reasonable and appropriate questions lanman87. You know that.

And an answer focusing on me and what I allegedly believe is NOT adressing St. Paul’s admonitions.

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough. . . .

So apart from the mischaracterizations about me or what I allegedly believe, I really want you to address St. Paul.

And Romans 3, and Ephesians 2:8-9, or Galatians 2:16 (“law” in the context of “Torah” or “circumcision”) will not harmonize the other points St. Paul brings up with what you have presented here so far.

 

[Peter_J]

If Catholics are rights and we are saved by both faith and works, then most Protestants I know would fall into that category.

Which Catholics?

 

[ajcstr]

I agree, folks have been arguing this for centuries, We certainly aren’t going to resolve anything on a message board. I’ve learned that Protestants have many misunderstandings about Catholicism but I’ve also learned that Catholics also have misunderstandings about Protestantism. We aren’t as shallow as ya’ll make us out to be. At least, some of us are not.

Nah - we just use the same words but mean different things, then we argue about our specific definitions. That’s why I enjoy the dialog, and this discussion has been very charitable also which helps.

The thing that personally bothers me the most about Protestantism is the idea held by some that Catholics are not Christians. For instance when Hank Hannagraff joined the Orthodox Church (I won’t use the word converted), he was criticized for “leaving Christianity”. These groups build a flawed strawman, then attack it.

 

[ajcstr]

So it seems to me you are saying that all grace is not free. That God gives grace freely when you first put your faith in him, but it is not enough. You have to earn more grace by following the rules. (as laid out by the RCC) Just like if you were a Jew and had to follow the Mosaic Law to keep yourself justified before God. Now you have to follow a new law, that while different in form, has the same effect as the Mosaic law.

Just a few quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which says it better than I can to articulate the position - I have included paragraph numbers:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1996 Our justification comes from the Grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

 

[AugustTherese]

I agree, folks have been arguing this for centuries, We certainly aren’t going to resolve anything on a message board. I’ve learned that Protestants have many misunderstandings about Catholicism but I’ve also learned that Catholics also have misunderstandings about Protestantism. We aren’t as shallow as ya’ll make us out to be. At least, some of us are not.

I absolutely love your display of fairness and sense of ecumenism here. This is what makes CAF beautiful, being cordial and charitable in the midst of our differences of belief. Thank you, lanman, for your respect. Be honest and fair with your heart, and I am sure you will be just fine!

 

[ajcstr]

I have never heard of him.

lanman - here is a clip from Pastor Anderson. In one of your posts you stated that you have never heard someone say you can go on sinning once saved (or something like that). I have listened to this guy several times and I’m not sure but it sounds like he preaches that at times.

youtube.com/watch?v=c3EI96yBIoI

 

[ajcstr]

Saving faith is far more than understanding and agreeing about Jesus. Saving faith is also putting your total trust in Jesus Christ for the salvation and redemption of your soul. Faith is life changing.

So let me ask you this (and this is an academic question, not a challenge), James contrasts a faith without works and a faith with works. So is it possible to have faith without works from a protestant perspective? That video I linked in my last post kind of touches on it.

Like you said earlier however we are just playing a semantics game at this point.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

lanman - here is a clip from Pastor Anderson. In one of your posts you stated that you have never heard someone say you can go on sinning once saved (or something like that). I have listened to this guy several times and I’m not sure but it sounds like he preaches that at times.

youtube.com/watch?v=c3EI96yBIoI

Sometimes pastor Anderson actually makes a lot of sense…

 

[AugustTherese]

Sometimes pastor Anderson actually makes a lot of sense…

Until he stated, “[We are] justified by works in the sight of man” and not “in the sight of God”.

 

[lanman87]

I had a long response to every question but I didn’t realize that there is a limit to the size of post. I lost everything I wrote. I’ll make another post addressing the Paul question.

Do you NEED to “suffer with Christ” in order to be “glorified with Christ”? St. Paul explicitly says you do. Is there ANY SENSE in your tradition that affirms this?

I’m assuming you are talking about Romans 8:17:

and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

This is saying why we suffer and that we will be rewarded for our suffering. Protestants affirm this position. We however, do not see suffering as a requirement but one of the many things that God uses to bring him glory both now and in the future. Suffering doesn’t justify us. It shows that we are really His Children.

WHY would St. Paul say such a thing if he thinks you are justified by faith alone?

see above

Of faith, hope, and charity, St. Paul explicitly says charity is greater than faith (in 1st Corinthians 13). WHY would St. Paul say this if he wanted you to come away with justification by faith ALONE?

WHY wouldn’t St. Paul just say: “Faith is MORE important than charity, because after all, you are justified by faith ALONE”?

Paul was addressing all kinds of divisions and misunderstandings in Corinth. They were all caught up expressing Spiritual Gifts, specifically the charismatic gifts. He tells them

*Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
*
Then he goes into one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible.

If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

He summarizes by saying

And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

These versus have nothing to do with salvation or redemption. They are about the Motive for what we do as Christians. Love is the reason God sent His son, God is Love, and Love should be the motivation behind everything we do. Faith without love isn’t true faith just as works without love aren’t done are done in selfishness or boastfulness.

WHY would St. Paul make up for a “lack” (in some sense) in the sufferings of Christ?

Why would St. Paul in Romans 6 tell us we were “Baptized” into Christ’s death?

In Romans 6 Paul is talking about how grace doesn’t give license to sin. That we are dead to sin and no longer under the law of sin. He uses baptism as an illustration of how this happens. His summary statement is* For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
*

Why would Jesus warn us if you don’t “forgive” your “brother”, your FATHER will not forgive YOUR sins? (Notice Jesus is addressing people who DO have God as their “Father”) Is this justification by faith AND forgiveness alone?

John Piper puts it this way
“If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Jesus is simply saying what he is saying everywhere else. And the way I would put it is like this: If the forgiveness that we received at the cost of the blood of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is so ineffective in our hearts that we are bent on holding unforgiving grudges and bitterness against someone, we are not a good tree. We are not saved. We don’t cherish this forgiveness. We don’t trust in this forgiveness. We don’t embrace and treasure this forgiveness. We are hypocrites. We are just mouthing. We haven’t ever felt the piercing, joyful wonder that God paid the life of his Son.

What about how saved people who have God as their Father CAN’T fall away from grace??

That is another topic altogether.

 

[lanman87]

lanman - here is a clip from Pastor Anderson. In one of your posts you stated that you have never heard someone say you can go on sinning once saved (or something like that). I have listened to this guy several times and I’m not sure but it sounds like he preaches that at times.

youtube.com/watch?v=c3EI96yBIoI

I actually said, or meant to say, that protestant don’t teach that is okay go to on living in sin. Not that we can’t go on sinning. We all sin, even those of us who seek to live in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Protestants, at least historically, teach to live in the spirit and put to death the deeds of the body. That this is an ongoing struggle and process. Just as Paul talked about in Romans 7.

 

[lanman87]

So let me ask you this (and this is an academic question, not a challenge), James contrasts a faith without works and a faith with works. So is it possible to have faith without works from a protestant perspective? That video I linked in my last post kind of touches on it.

Like you said earlier however we are just playing a semantics game at this point.

We see James express of Faith without works, based on the context, to mean a public expression of faith that wasn’t genuine. A person can say “I have faith” but in reality they haven’t been changed into a new creation.

To use a protestant example…Maybe they are just sick of folks pestering them to “Receive Jesus as Your Lord and Savior” so they finally say fine and then say “The Sinners Prayer”. They are no more saved than burnt toast. Maybe out of friendship with someone or to impress a girl or to make their parents happy they follow up the “prayer” with Baptism and joining a church. Because they didn’t really believe (have faith) they were never changed and their faith is “dead”. It never was alive to begin with.

I would say that faith produces a change of heart, which will result in works. It might not be immediate. But eventually, as the person grows in faith and knowledge, he will be compelled by the Spirit to express his faith in works. If a person tells me they believed three years ago and never goes to church or supports any ministry then I would ask them to examine their faith and see if it is genuine.

Protestants roughly define works as using Spiritual Gifts, talents, experiences and circumstance to further the Kingdom of God. This is done in community with other followers of Christ (the local church). It can involve anything from cleaning the church building to being called by the Spirit to a lifetime of ministry as a missionary.

 

[AugustTherese]

And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

These versus have nothing to do with salvation or redemption. They are about the Motive for what we do as Christians. Love is the reason God sent His son, God is Love, and Love should be the motivation behind everything we do. Faith without love isn’t true faith just as works without love aren’t done are done in selfishness or boastfulness.

So “faith” has nothing to do with “salvation” or “redemption”? Because I am quite certain I read faith being juxtaposed with “hope” and “love” in that verse you quoted, and Saint Paul declaring that only love is greater than the one thing you claim justifies, i.e. “faith”.

 

[lanman87]

So “faith” has nothing to do with “salvation” or “redemption”? Because I am quite certain I read faith being juxtaposed with “hope” and “love” in that verse you quoted, and Saint Paul declaring that only love is greater than the one thing you claim justifies, i.e. “faith”.

No, I’m saying in the context of these versus he is not making a statement about being saved. The context is admonishing the Christians in Corinth to be motivated by Love. Their faith should be motivated by Love and their Works should be motivated by Love. He isn’t telling them how to become a Child of the King but how Children of the King should treat each other and the world.

 

[James248]

No, I’m saying in the context of these versus he is not making a statement about being saved. The context is admonishing the Christians in Corinth to be motivated by Love. Their faith should be motivated by Love and their Works should be motivated by Love. He isn’t telling them how to become a Child of the King but how Children of the King should treat each other and the world.

Or you could say Paul is telling them how they can stay Children of the King.

 

[AugustTherese]

No, I’m saying in the context of these versus he is not making a statement about being saved.

Sure he is. Final salvation is entirely incumbent on being infused with and employing the cardinal virtues of faith, hope, and most importantly, love; hence, “[A]nd if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” We are justified by faith, but if that faith does not work through love, then “[we] are nothing”! Isolating these verses from the verses that are more explicit in referring to “salvation” seems to be an attempt to prooftext Scripture to fit Protestant theology.

The context is admonishing the Christians in Corinth to be motivated by Love. Their faith should be motivated by Love and their Works should be motivated by Love.

Okay, but why, for what purpose? Are you really suggesting or implying that this “movivat[ion]” is solely a result or a mere byproduct of a justifying faith apart from love? I promise you, anything from the inspired written word of God has everything to do with your “salvation” or “redemption”, one way or another.

He isn’t telling them how to become a Child of the King but how Children of the King should treat each other and the world.

Sure, I have no problem with that. We “become a Child of the King” through Holy Baptism. However, if you want to keep your free gift of eternal life and remain a “Child of the King”, you must accept Our Lord infusing into your soul the cardinal virtue of love, lest you become “nothing”.

 

[lanman87]

whew, this is a lot of work

WHY would St. Paul warn us about some sense of some law we ARE to keep, yet imply works of Torah are NOT justifying?

ROMANS 2:13-14 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

In Romans 2-3:20 Paul is summarizing the Mosaic system. He is describing how Jews are Justified by the Law and how Gentiles have a natural law that helps them do what is required.

But then in Romans 3:21 we have two very important words.

But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ[d] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; 24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement[e] by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.[f]

I would say that Romans, Ephesians and Galatians aren’t just talking about the Mosaic law but also the Natural Law. Neither the Mosaic Law or the Natural Law alluded to Romans 2:14 are what brings puts us in a right relationship with God.

We are put in a right relationship with God by accepting His gift of grace by faith. When we place our faith in Christ we are given His Spirit which adopts us and leads us to be obedient and moves us from immature to mature. The moment we respond to the Gospel message in faith we are sealed by the Spirit, who guarantees our inheritance. Faith places us in a right relationship with God and God uses the Holy Spirit, living within us, to keep us in a right relationship with God.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Eph 1:13-14

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph 4:30

Our sins grieve the Holy Spirit but they don’t break the seal. Whether we can break the seal ourselves by an act of free will is another topic.

Anyway, it is clear, as posted elsewhere, that we will not reach a resolution on a message board, considering that this discussion has been going on for 500 years.

May the Lord Bless you and Keep you.

 

[ajcstr]

No, I’m saying in the context of these versus he is not making a statement about being saved. The context is admonishing the Christians in Corinth to be motivated by Love. Their faith should be motivated by Love and their Works should be motivated by Love. He isn’t telling them how to become a Child of the King but how Children of the King should treat each other and the world.

The question “can that faith save him?” is not making a statement about being saved?

 

[lanman87]

The question “can that faith save him?” is not making a statement about being saved?

Whew, this is getting confusing. I just read 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 three times trying to find “Can that faith save him”. Then I realized we are back at James 2.

I think we are going in circles now. The context of James 2 is those who claim to have faith but don’t have the works that back it up. Such faith can’t save them because it isn’t really faith, it is just words.

Anyway, I think we, along with many people much smarter than us (well maybe not smarter than you but certainly smarter than me) have debated and argued over this for 500 years. I doubt there will be a resolution until the end of the Age then we will all probably be slapping our heads going “Wow, it was that simple!”

 

[AugustTherese]

But then in Romans 3:21 we have two very important words.

But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ[d] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; 24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement[e] by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.[f]

To the end of this chapter, the apostle shews that the Jews cannot be truly justified, and sanctified by the works of the written law of Moses only; that a knowledge of sin, or of what is sinful, came by the law, but if they did not comply with the precepts of the law, this knowledge made them more guilty. Now, at the coming of Christ, the justice of God, that is, the justice by which he made others just, and justified them, cannot be had without faith in Christ, and by the grace of our Redeemer Jesus Christ, whom God hath proposed to all, both Gentiles and Jews, as a sacrifice of[3] propitiation for the sins of all mankind, by faith in his blood; that is, by believing in him, who shed his blood and died for us on the cross. It is he alone, (ver. 26.) that is the just one, and the justifier of all. And as to this, there is no distinction. The Gentiles are justified and sanctified without the written law, and the Jews who have been under the law, cannot partake of the justice of God, that is, cannot be justified, sanctified, or saved, but by the faith and grace of Christ Jesus. St. Paul does not pretend that the virtue of faith alone will justify and save a man; nothing can be more opposite to the doctrine of the gospel, and of the apostles in many places, as hath been observed, and will be shewn hereafter. He tells us in this chapter (ver. 20. and 28.) that man is justified without the works of the written law: and he teaches us, that no works of the law of Moses, nor any works that a man does by the law of nature, are sufficient to justify a man, and save him of themselves, that is, unless they be joined with faith, and the grace of God. And when he seems to say, that men are justified or saved by faith, or by believing, as he says of Abraham in the next chapter, (ver. 3. and 5.) he never says (as some both ancient and later heretics have pretended) that faith alone is sufficient. And besides by faith, he understands the Christian faith and doctrine of Christ, as opposite to the law of Moses, to circumcision, and the ceremonies of that law, as it evidently appears by the design of the apostle, both in this epistle and in that to the Galatians. He teaches us in this epistle (chap. ii. 6.) that God will judge every man according to his works: (chap. ii. 13.) that “not the hearers of the law,” but the doers, shall be justified. See also chap. vi. He tells the Galatians (chap. v. ver. 6.) that the faith, by which they must be saved, must be a faith working by charity. He also tells the Corinthians (1 Corinthians vii. 19.) that circumcision is nothing, nor uncircumcision, but the keeping of the commandments of God. That though a man should have a faith, that so he could remove mountains, it would avail him nothing without charity. How often does he tell us that they who commit such and such sins, shall not inherit or possess the kingdom of God? Does not St. James tell us, that faith without good works is dead? - Haydock Bible Commentary