Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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susanlo said:
Didn’t Paul and James write the passages being discussed on this thread because people in the 1st century churches were confused and in conflict regarding faith and works?
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Well, adding some more complexity to it, when Paul uses the phrase “works of law” is he talking about good works or is he talking about circumcision and food laws. A real strong case can be made for the latter. In Romans and Galatians as in Acts 15, the debate could be a response to the “circumcision party” who argued that the Christians must be circumcised and since it was unclean to eat with gentiles, the law presented a problem as far as participation in the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper.
susanlo said:
I am sure there were plenty of discussions and disagreements between the 1st and 16th century as well.
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Most notable being the heresy of Pelagianism.
susanlo said:
Yes, there was a major conflict and divide that happened in the 16th century. A lot had changed in Christianity in regards to justification. Maybe if people weren’t being sold indulgences as a way to merit their salvation, things would have played out differently.
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The Catholic Church never taught that salvation could be earned. As I said the heresy of Pelagianism was squashed in the 5th century. There were a lot of things wrong with the Church of the 16th century, but this has nothing to do with what Paul and James wrote and the fact that the reformers fundamentially misinterpreted some of Paul’s writings.
 
lanman87 said:
To use a protestant example…Maybe they are just sick of folks pestering them to “Receive Jesus as Your Lord and Savior” so they finally say fine and then say “The Sinners Prayer”. .
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Wow, I have been reading Romans/Galatians/Ephesians/James quite a bit for this discussion. Have never come across either of these terms. Can you provide the verses? 😃
 
MichaelP3 said:
I hear you on this one! I have been here for quite a short period compared to others but I still don’t think we are always on the same page as all Catholics with this one.

I once touched on this referring to faith that can move mountains as in the Bible. Then I got informed about the Saint who apparently moved a mountain :confused:

Cs and Ps were equally confused.
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With regard to Faith, I have heard arguments that Faith is more that intellectual assent (I agree) and that it must include trust (I agree) but it must also include fidelity which I think is what James is saying and I can’t seem to get agreement on that.

LOL, the mountain thing still getting to you, I actually remember that.
 
Faithdancer said:
More than sufficient. Irresistible!
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So let me ask you… If you believe grace is irresistible, then you believe in unconditional election. I never understood why we would even need a gospel in this case. Is it just so the unsaved would know they are unsaved because God chose not to elect them?
 
JonNC said:
Just some thoughts

Martin Luther -

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
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Yeah, Yeah … saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
And in the Anglican church of all places :eek:
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Hey, I guess it happens even in the best of homes. But seriously, Calvinism is spread across all Protestantism isn’t it? Didn’t the Puritans come from the Church of England?
 
Seems to me that St. Paul was talking about when he says “works of the Law” Jewish Religious laws since as Jews they followed the laws of Moses. Not good works per say but doing good works out of love not as a requirement in order to be saved especially as the converted Pharicees were teaching.
 
ajcstr said:
Hey, I guess it happens even in the best of homes. But seriously, Calvinism is spread across all Protestantism isn’t it? Didn’t the Puritans come from the Church of England?
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Indeed they did. I think the cool hats were their own invention, though.
 
1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 2b if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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lanman87. You mentioned a guy who . . . “GAINS NOTHING” in the context of 1st Corinthians 13, his “faith” doesn’t concern his salvation saying . . .

(in post 110 emphasis mine)
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
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These versus have nothing to do with salvation or redemption. They are about the Motive for what we do as Christians. Love is the reason God sent His son, God is Love, and Love should be the motivation behind everything we do. Faith without love isn’t true faith just as works without love aren’t done are done in selfishness or boastfulness.
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NOT 1st CORINTHIANS (Phantom Verse) 2 and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am saved anyway because **“faith” here doesn’t really “faith” but merely “MOTIVATION” **and therefore has nothing to do with salvation. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing but I DO GAIN heaven because I am only alluding to motivation here. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is faith so it fits into a doctrine of justification of faith alone.

“Motivation”??

That’s like me taking Colossians 1:9 . . . .

COLOSSIANS 1:9 9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all

That’s like me taking Colossians 1:9 . . . and saying . . . .
**“The day we heard of it” doesn’t really mean. . . . “the day we heard of it” here.
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“Paul” just means here “you should follow the Pope here.”**
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Your exegesis just is not persuasive here lanman87.

Here is what 1st Corinthians 13 REALLY says (in the context of “faith”) . . . .
1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 2b if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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(Remember this the next time you hear 1st Corinthians 13 read at a wedding as this is OFTEN read at weddings)

St. Paul is talking about “FAITH” here . . . . and “FAITH” . . . . IS INVOLVED in salvation lanman87.

And this guy has “FAITH” to “(RE)MOVE MOUNTAINS”.

That’s a LOT of faith lanman87!

You say “faith” here in St. Paul’s writing doesn’t concern salvation.

Yet the BIBLE tells me “faith” has LOTS to do with my salvation.

HEBREWS 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Your justification is a moment followed by a lifelong PROCESS.

That is WHY St. Paul reminds his hearers in 1st Timothy, that by DOING something, they can SAVE THEMSELVES!! (Please don’t say, “saving yourselves” has "nothing to do with saving yourselves” here).

1st TIMOTHY 4:16 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

WHY? Because St. Paul is falling into Pelagianism? No! (Nor was St. Peter falling into Pelagianism in Acts 2:40)

Q: Well WHY can these guys “save themselves” then?

A: Because God is AT WORK.

Q: Where is God “at WORK”?

A: God is at work . . . . IN YOU.

Q: And THAT grace can have something to do with our salvation?

A: Yes.

That is WHY after your initial justification (after God is put within you in a special way), you CAN . . . . .

. . . . you CAN do WHAT?

You CAN “WORK OUT” your SALVATION!

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3,13 2b** if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains**, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
So considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . .

. . . . And . . . taking into account that St. Paul explicitly says we can have “faith” to “move mountains” but if we do NOT ALSO have “charity” (“love”) we gain “NOTHING”? . . . .

. . . . and . . . .

St. James explicitly says . . . . you are NOT justified by faith alone . . . .

. . . . WHY . . . .

. . . . come up with a “formula” that says . . . . "You ARE justified by faith ALONE”?
 
Cathoholic said:
So considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . .

. . . . And . . . taking into account that St. Paul explicitly says we can have “faith” to “move mountains” but if we do NOT ALSO have “charity” (“love”) we gain “NOTHING”? . . . .

. . . . and . . . .

St. James explicitly says . . . . you are NOT justified by faith alone . . . .

. . . . WHY . . . .

. . . . come up with a “formula” that says . . . . "You ARE justified by faith ALONE”?
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Exactly.

And of course, it is a wrong formula. 😃
 
Cathoholic said:
So considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . .

. . . . And . . . taking into account that St. Paul explicitly says we can have “faith” to “move mountains” but if we do NOT ALSO have “charity” (“love”) we gain “NOTHING”? . . . .

. . . . and . . . .

St. James explicitly says . . . . you are NOT justified by faith alone . . . .

. . . . WHY . . . .

. . . . come up with a “formula” that says . . . . "You ARE justified by faith ALONE”?
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My Bible says in Galations that Paul wrote…

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 
believers said:
My Bible says in Galations that Paul wrote…

Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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Don’t see the phrase “faith alone” in any of those passages. Only place I can find “faith alone” in my Bible is James 2:24.
 
Side question … If James 2:24 had said we are sanctified by works rather than justified by works, would you (protestants) be more inclined to just take it at face value?
 
JonNC said:
Martin Luther - Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
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You forgot these from Martin Luther:

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.”, from Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”, from Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. III, pg. 47.

“There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.", from Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128

Context, right? 🙂
 
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