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AugustTherese
Guest
Not at all! :grouphug:Hi Michael
What are your thoughts on TULIP and OSAS?
I know it’s not exactly the OP topic but I’m sure the OP does not mind.
- Status
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lanman87
Guest
Cathoholic,
My computer died on Friday night and I’ve just now got a loaner until my computer is fixed.
St. Paul - For “no human being will be justified in his sight” by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. Romans 3:20-22
Paul is not contradicting himself. Even in Romans 2 he is pointing out that the Mosaic system can’t really produce or justification. It is impossible to be completely true to the law (Mosaic or Moral). Our righteousness does not come by the deeds of the law but by faith in Christ. By faith in Christ we receive the righteousness of God. It is not our righteousness that gives us grace and makes us right before God. It is God’s own grace and righteousness that he gives to us by faith. If we have to rely on our own righteousness (before or after coming to faith) then we are all doomed.
*WHY did “we” receive that grace? To bring about OBEDIENCE that’s why.
I agree that we received grace to bring about obedience.
Here is what John Piper says about Romans 1:5. This is the summary paragraph.
How then does our own obedience — “the obedience of faith” — relate to justification? The answer is: Our obedience is not the ground or the basis of our justification. Nor is it any part of the instrument or means by which we are united to Christ who alone is the ground and the basis of our justification. Faith alone unites us to Christ and Christ alone is the ground of our justification. Our obedience is the fruit of that faith. The faith that justifies is the kind of faith that, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13), changes us. If your faith in Christ leaves you unchanged, you don’t have saving faith. Obedience — not perfection, but a new direction of thought and affections and behavior — is the fruit that shows that the faith is alive. James put it this way, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). Faith alone justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone. It is always accompanied by “newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
*So you trying to go back to the Once Saved Always Saved paradigm isn’t going to work.
I am asking you to address St. Paul, and the lifelong process of justification that comes AFTER the moment of justification.
And you’ve done so only on a PARTIAL basis.*
Of course I would say that the lifelong process is Sanctification. Justification is that moment when, by faith, God declares you just. Sanctification is the lifelong process of someone having been justified being conformed to the image of Christ.
BTW- I’ve only recently started studying Calvinism in depth just as I have started studying Catholicism. I’m still not sold on all of the teachings of Calvinism. I’m having similar discussions(arguments?) with some Calvinist about their theology. I would say my beliefs are closer to Calvinism in that I believe that by faith we take on the righteousness of Christ. And by faith we are kept in the righteousness of Christ. And that obedience is a result of faith (why be obedient to something you don’t fully believe). However, I’m having problems with irresistible grace and OSAS.
I don’t think you are a semi-pelagian lanman87.
No, my belief is that God calls us to him. The Holy Spirit convicts sinners and initiates the process of bringing sinners to Christ. I’m on the fence as far as grace being irresistible.
NOT 1st CORINTHIANS (Phantom Verse) 2 and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am saved anyway because “faith” here doesn’t really “faith” but merely “MOTIVATION” and therefore has nothing to do with salvation. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing but I DO GAIN heaven because I am only alluding to motivation here. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is faith so it fits into a doctrine of justification of faith alone.
I have know idea what you are trying to get at here. I never said faith wasn’t involved in Salvation. I was merely pointing out that the purpose of this chapter is referencing divisions in the Corinthian church.
I think your above Phantom Verse is an attempt to put words in my mouth that I never said or meant.
I said…“Faith without love isn’t true faith just as works without love are done in selfishness or boastfulness.”
My paraphrase would be more like “…if I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love, then my faith isn’t genuine (no matter how strong I think it is) because genuine faith comes from Love”
God Bless and Have a great day!
My computer died on Friday night and I’ve just now got a loaner until my computer is fixed.
I see that you have made several post in response to one of my post. Instead of writing a bunch of post I’ll try to hit each topic in this post. Your quotes are in italics.
St. Paul: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Romans 2:13St. Paul - For “no human being will be justified in his sight” by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. Romans 3:20-22
Paul is not contradicting himself. Even in Romans 2 he is pointing out that the Mosaic system can’t really produce or justification. It is impossible to be completely true to the law (Mosaic or Moral). Our righteousness does not come by the deeds of the law but by faith in Christ. By faith in Christ we receive the righteousness of God. It is not our righteousness that gives us grace and makes us right before God. It is God’s own grace and righteousness that he gives to us by faith. If we have to rely on our own righteousness (before or after coming to faith) then we are all doomed.
*WHY did “we” receive that grace? To bring about OBEDIENCE that’s why.
Code:
ROMANS 1:5 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations *Here is what John Piper says about Romans 1:5. This is the summary paragraph.
How then does our own obedience — “the obedience of faith” — relate to justification? The answer is: Our obedience is not the ground or the basis of our justification. Nor is it any part of the instrument or means by which we are united to Christ who alone is the ground and the basis of our justification. Faith alone unites us to Christ and Christ alone is the ground of our justification. Our obedience is the fruit of that faith. The faith that justifies is the kind of faith that, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13), changes us. If your faith in Christ leaves you unchanged, you don’t have saving faith. Obedience — not perfection, but a new direction of thought and affections and behavior — is the fruit that shows that the faith is alive. James put it this way, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). Faith alone justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone. It is always accompanied by “newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
*So you trying to go back to the Once Saved Always Saved paradigm isn’t going to work.
I am asking you to address St. Paul, and the lifelong process of justification that comes AFTER the moment of justification.
And you’ve done so only on a PARTIAL basis.*
Of course I would say that the lifelong process is Sanctification. Justification is that moment when, by faith, God declares you just. Sanctification is the lifelong process of someone having been justified being conformed to the image of Christ.
BTW- I’ve only recently started studying Calvinism in depth just as I have started studying Catholicism. I’m still not sold on all of the teachings of Calvinism. I’m having similar discussions(arguments?) with some Calvinist about their theology. I would say my beliefs are closer to Calvinism in that I believe that by faith we take on the righteousness of Christ. And by faith we are kept in the righteousness of Christ. And that obedience is a result of faith (why be obedient to something you don’t fully believe). However, I’m having problems with irresistible grace and OSAS.
I don’t think you are a semi-pelagian lanman87.
No, my belief is that God calls us to him. The Holy Spirit convicts sinners and initiates the process of bringing sinners to Christ. I’m on the fence as far as grace being irresistible.
NOT 1st CORINTHIANS (Phantom Verse) 2 and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am saved anyway because “faith” here doesn’t really “faith” but merely “MOTIVATION” and therefore has nothing to do with salvation. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing but I DO GAIN heaven because I am only alluding to motivation here. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is faith so it fits into a doctrine of justification of faith alone.
I have know idea what you are trying to get at here. I never said faith wasn’t involved in Salvation. I was merely pointing out that the purpose of this chapter is referencing divisions in the Corinthian church.
I think your above Phantom Verse is an attempt to put words in my mouth that I never said or meant.
I said…“Faith without love isn’t true faith just as works without love are done in selfishness or boastfulness.”
My paraphrase would be more like “…if I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love, then my faith isn’t genuine (no matter how strong I think it is) because genuine faith comes from Love”
God Bless and Have a great day!
A
AugustTherese
Guest
“Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it” Proverbs 3:27 KVJ
“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.” Deuteronomy 30:10-14 KVJ
“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13 KJV
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Never felt comfortable with it in 13 years of being a protestant Christian.
Forget ECF’s and Church history, it just never jived with what I was seeing in the scriptures.
Seriously, I think one must have some sort of convoluted understanding of the NT to follow that line of thinking. I just don’t see it.
Dr. James White, a staunch Calvinist recently debated Trent Horn(Catholic) OSAS. You may really enjoy this debate if you are digging into this topic:
youtube.com/watch?v=72TRODe8BdA&t
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Reuben_J
Guest
But keeping it is life long process … until you reach the final destination.From what I see, some think there is initial justification and further justification. This kind of sound like you are saying you are saved and then “more” saved? But if that means further justification is growing closer to God as we experience our faith-walk with Jesus, then we are in agreement.
From a protestant standpoint (and maybe Catholic
The thief on the cross first mocked Jesus and then later believed. He did nothing but have faith in Jesus and he went straight to Paradise without doing one good work. He was justified by his faith. He went from 0 to 1.
IOW, you can lose it along the journey.
If the thief should be taken off the cross and being freed, and if he reverted to his old sinful way, he would not be in paradise with the Lord. Certainly.
I am just saying the Catholic position.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Believers. You pointed out (here) . . . .
You DID see my quote of Hebrews 11:6 (here) did you not?
I am just affirming ALL the verses that St. Paul teaches us about salvation.
I am not going to pick and choose some St. Paul verses, and toss away other St. Paul verses.
And I am not going to ADD the word “ALONE” to these St. Paul verses (even interiorly) when the word “ALONE” isn’t in these verses from St. Paul.
(Hopefully I don’t do that with ANY verses but here we are discussing St. Paul’s verses about salvation)
St. Peter warned against certain “ignorant and unstable” men that twist St. Paul’s writings and other Scriptures.
St. Peter warned that people; in following these “ignorant and unstable” men, can get “carried away” and even “lose your own stability”.
But how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who themselves lead people astray?
Fortunately Scripture tells us.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who lead people astray as faith-LESS men . . . but he didn’t.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who lead people astray as hope-LESS men . . . but he didn’t.
So how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who frequently use St. Paul’s writings and other passages (“as they do the other Scriptures”), that lead people astray?
St. Peter characterized them as LAW-LESS men!
2nd PETER 3:15-18 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
(more on this here if you want more)
What are you trying to say here with the Galatians quotes?
Are you attempting to say the Galatians passages means faith ALONE?
What about the other things St. Paul says too. (Don’t you affirm THOSE verses too??)
***So once again . . . . ***
So considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . .
. . . . And . . . taking into account that St. Paul explicitly says we can have “faith” to “move mountains” but if we do NOT ALSO have “charity” (“love”) we gain “NOTHING”? . . . .
. . . . and . . . .
St. James explicitly says . . . . you are NOT justified by faith alone . . . .
. . . . WHY . . . .
. . . . come up with a “formula” that says . . . . "You ARE justified by faith ALONE”?
And I am thinking . . . Yes. I DO affirm all of this.
You DID see my quote of Hebrews 11:6 (here) did you not?
You understand I am not denying the necessity of faith right?
I am just affirming ALL the verses that St. Paul teaches us about salvation.
I am not going to pick and choose some St. Paul verses, and toss away other St. Paul verses.
And I am not going to ADD the word “ALONE” to these St. Paul verses (even interiorly) when the word “ALONE” isn’t in these verses from St. Paul.
(Hopefully I don’t do that with ANY verses but here we are discussing St. Paul’s verses about salvation)
St. Peter warned against certain “ignorant and unstable” men that twist St. Paul’s writings and other Scriptures.
St. Peter warned that people; in following these “ignorant and unstable” men, can get “carried away” and even “lose your own stability”.
But how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who themselves lead people astray?
Fortunately Scripture tells us.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who lead people astray as faith-LESS men . . . but he didn’t.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who lead people astray as hope-LESS men . . . but he didn’t.
So how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who frequently use St. Paul’s writings and other passages (“as they do the other Scriptures”), that lead people astray?
St. Peter characterized them as LAW-LESS men!
2nd PETER 3:15-18 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
(more on this here if you want more)
What are you trying to say here with the Galatians quotes?
Are you attempting to say the Galatians passages means faith ALONE?
What about the other things St. Paul says too. (Don’t you affirm THOSE verses too??)
***So once again . . . . ***
So considering St. Paul NEVER says we are justified by faith ALONE . . . .
. . . . And . . . taking into account that St. Paul explicitly says we can have “faith” to “move mountains” but if we do NOT ALSO have “charity” (“love”) we gain “NOTHING”? . . . .
. . . . and . . . .
St. James explicitly says . . . . you are NOT justified by faith alone . . . .
. . . . WHY . . . .
. . . . come up with a “formula” that says . . . . "You ARE justified by faith ALONE”?
C
Cathoholic
Guest
St. Paul said: men can have faith to move mountains. That is a LOT of faith Ianman87 but if these people don’t also have charity (love), they gain . . . . not Heaven . . . but . . . . they gain “NOTHING”.
Do YOU think people who have “faith to move mountains” but “have not love” are going to gain Heaven Ianman87?
You also said:
Fair enough criticism of me Ianman87. But then just affirm the verse as it is stated and I’ll retract it.
You said:
Yet St. Paul says this . . . .
WHY would you think St. Paul wants us to “ABIDE” in a faith that “isn’t genuine”?
St. Paul says to ABIDE” in this faith to “move mountains” but abide in hope and charity too!
This would be non-sense if he was referring to a non-genuine faith. (although his faith would be “dead” here as St. James says elsewhere)
St. Paul isn’t talking about FEELINGS or “THOUGHTS” (“I think”) are here in 1st Corinthians 13 Ianman87.
St. Paul is talking about the REALITY of a guy with faith to “move mountains” but has NOT charity.
And if he has this situation he gains . . . . NOTHING.
He doesn’t gain “Heaven”.
He gains . . . . NOTHING.
This would be pointless to say if St. Paul believed or taught justification by faith alone.
Why paraphrase it at all?
Why not just AFFIRM ALL the verses from St. Paul? The verses about “faith”, AND the verses about “works”?
Why look at verses that discuss faith and come up with “faith ALONE”?
I just don’t get that adding “ALONE” to Scripture (even interiorly).
You (and I) would go after a guy if he came on here and quoted Romans 8:24a
And then he deduced (wrongly) . . . .
You and I would lambaste this guy Ianman87.
He cannot take one verse and absolutize it (when the verse doesn’t) and IGNORE other Scriptural admonitions.
You and I would not let him get away with his invention of “Sola hope-eea”.
This picking and choosing of verses is not responsible handling of Sacred Scripture Ianman87.
Just affirm the verses for what they say.
Then go back and harmonize them and believe them ALL.
Or you can just go to “The Church” and see what She has to say.
And realize She has already done that for you so you don’t need to personally re-invent the wheel in every generation.
Justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone.
Sure. Context. And a healthy skepticism of Denifle.You forgot these from Martin Luther:
“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.”, from Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160
“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.”, from Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. III, pg. 47.
“There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.", from Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128
Context, right?
But the context is the concern and fear, way overstated in these quotes by Luther, that people would believe they could be justified by their works.
Jon
No. Other than the “T”, Calvin’s TULIP is rejected by Lutherans, as well has his view of the Eucharist, and iconoclasm.
M
MichaelP3
Guest
Hi LAHi Michael
What are your thoughts on TULIP and OSAS?
I know it’s not exactly the OP topic but I’m sure the OP does not mind.
I have my concerns with TULIP.
On OSAS it is maybe a bit more intricate. I do not hold the Catholic position on this and also not the various other positions I saw on here. I referred to the verse that said with faith the size of a mustard seed you can move a mountain. This is one of my favourites and a very hard statement in my opinion that many overlook. So the “sinner’s prayer” or that person who “just believes” is not what I mean at all, this should be obvious.
So faith with regards to OSAS to me is quite cool. But I think 99% of Christians (Let me remove that Saint who actually moved that mountain) would struggle with this one before we even get to the “other” 1000 things “related” to salvation.
Regards
A
AugustTherese
Guest
Jon, the ‘context’ defense only works when the meaning is either hidden or not as unambiguous on the surface, hence a possible misunderstanding that usually gets clarified by the person who wrote and/or said what is being misunderstood. For example, how many times did the Apostles of Our Lord frequently misunderstand the meaning of Jesus’ words during His public ministry? Did Our Lord leave it to them to figure it out alone? No, He clarified the meaning, corrected their misunderstanding, and even called them dull at times.
When Luther writes absurd and even coarse sentiments at times, I am sorry, but the ‘context’ argument that his followers attempt to defend such ridiculous ideas and opinions does not work. I do not see Luther clarifying anything! For example, if I were to say that all Lutheran ecclesial communities should be burned down (in which I would NEVER say or propose), and then try to defend such a vile statement by telling you that you are misinterpreting the context, would not that be analogous to what happens with many Lutherans trying to defend Luther’s works?
Just think about this for a moment; why is it that you never, ever see Lutherans quoting Luther’s vulgar sentiments outside of defending them and the ‘context’? Why do you only see them being quoted by Catholics/Orthodox just to have Lutherans attempt to defend them at all costs"
“So now you see that man is justified by works, not by faith alone.” James 2:24 (LUTH1545)
Check what was going on at that time. The focus was on Works, at least according to the reformers. Luther’s response, overstated though it is, was to that. If one relies on his own works, one’s own efforts for justification, that is dangerous.Jon, the ‘context’ defense only works when the meaning is either hidden or not as unambiguous on the surface, hence a possible misunderstanding that usually gets clarified by the person who wrote and/or said what is being misunderstood. For example, how many times did the Apostles of Our Lord frequently misunderstand the meaning of Jesus’ words during His public ministry? Did Our Lord leave it to them to figure it out alone? No, He clarified the meaning, corrected their misunderstanding, and even called them dull at times.
When Luther writes absurd and even coarse sentiments at times, I am sorry, but the ‘context’ argument that his followers attempt to defend such ridiculous ideas and opinions does not work. I do not see Luther clarifying anything! For example, if I were to say that all Lutheran ecclesial communities should be burned down (in which I would NEVER say or propose), and then try to defend such a vile statement by telling you that you are misinterpreting the context, would not that be analogous to what happens with many Lutherans trying to defend Luther’s works?
Just think about this for a moment; why is it that you never, ever see Lutherans quoting Luther’s vulgar sentiments outside of defending them and the ‘context’? Why do you only see them being quoted by Catholics/Orthodox just to have Lutherans attempt to defend them at all costs"
“So now you see that man is justified by works, not by faith alone.” James 2:24 (LUTH1545)
Works mean nothing outside the context of grace and faith. That is the context.
Luther’s thoughts seem to be understood by Akin that n his article, and Pope Benedict and n his writings. Outside of those who simply want to dabble in polemics, no one believes Luther taught that works are not necessary.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Great, wonderful!!! So, is one justified by works, and not faith only?
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AugustTherese
Guest
Of course he taught they were necessary! But necessary for what? If you can ascribe to him as teaching they were necessary for JUSTIFICATION, then the last 500 years were a waste of time…
A
ajcstr
Guest
So, as Mr Spock would agree, that is an illogical statement.Justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone.
And as a side note, how many “solas” can there be before its not sola anymore?
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AugustTherese
Guest
Yep; e.g., “I am alone, but I am never alone.”
I will answer in this way. From the JDDJ
From this perspective, it is only by grace that good works on our part are even possible . If the Catholic position is that, in the same way that faith is a gift of grace, good works are, too, and in that way are a part of justification (God’s work in and through us), then to me the disagreement is moot. As Pope Benedict states, “For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”
Jon
A
AugustTherese
Guest
Amen! Do you believe this?
Each sola has a specific meaning. It acts as a limiting fact.
Is there any way to receive salvation other than by grace? If no, then salvation is by grace alone.
For a Lutheran, scripture is alone the final norm for holding doctrine and teachings accountable.
For a Lutheran, one accesses justification only by faith, which itself is a gift of grace.
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