Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[Cathoholic]

Good insight (here) concerning John 15 point ajcstr!

Does the Bible teach “Once saved, always saved”?

It doesn’t hint, teach or intimate such a tradition.

Nothing separates us from the “love” of Jesus.

But that doesn’t mean you cannot choose to be separated from the “LIFE” of Jesus.

IN Jesus, we get our life.

There is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. But if you choose not to REMAIN . . . where?

If you CHOOSE not to remain IN Christ Jesus, then there IS condemnation.

Jesus warns us in John 15 (as ajcstr has pointed out) . . .

Please listen to Jesus’ warnings to those who are IN Him. From the NIV . . . .

JOHN 15:1-2 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Notice Jesus warns us about people who are already IN Jesus!

And notice you can be IN-Jesus, but if you don’t bear fruit, you will be CUT OFF from Christ!

Objector: Well that merely means backsliding. I would still be saved.

Answer: No. The Father cuts off branches that are IN JESUS that don’t bear fruit!

Q: Maybe that just means “backsliding”? Or maybe he was never REALLY “in Jesus” in the first place.

A: That’s not what the passage says or implies! But let’s read on. Jesus is addressing people who are “already clean.”

JOHN 15:3 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Notice this is addressing people who are “already clean” and IN Jesus.

And in the very next verse, Jesus reminds us these are people who ARE IN HIM. But they MUST “REMAIN” in Jesus.

JOHN 15:3-4 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4** Remain** IN ME, and I will remain in you.

Notice he is IN Jesus! And Jesus is IN him. And Jesus talks about REMAINING in these guys . . . . IF . . . They bear fruit.

And the ONLY way we can bear fruit that KEEPS us IN Jesus is by grace.

JOHN 15:3-5 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Why would Jesus be telling us to “REMAIN” in him if we were never IN HIM in the first place?

Because he’s telling this to people who are “IN JESUS” in the first place.

Jesus doesn’t say they were NEVER IN ME in the first place!

Jesus says these people ARE IN Him!

Q: This means we are just “backsliding,” then we would get to Heaven anyway right?

A: Wrong. Let’s listen to what Jesus says about this. Please listen to Jesus!

JOHN 15:6a 6 If anyone does not remain in me . . . .

Notice you can choose to “not remain in (Jesus) me!”

And now look at the consequences of this choice to not remain in Jesus!

NOT JOHN 15:6 (but a phantom verse) 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that withers and loses crowns; such withered branches are still in me though anyway because once they are IN ME, they can never be thrown aside and burned, but rather they will remain in me anyway.

Is this what our Lord Jesus says? NO!

Now let’s look at what is REALLY in Scripture.

JOHN 15:6 6 If anyone does not remain in me,
he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Does Jesus use this imagery (of being “thrown into the fire” where they “wither” and “burn”) to tell someone he is “saved” and headed for Heaven?

No!

 

[JonNC]

Maybe that’s how you would say that’s how we should understand the Faith Alone doctrine?

In a very basic manner, yes. Works “fit in” to justification as the fruits of faith.
In the orchard, we know what happens to the tree that bears no fruit.
The end of the Athanasian Creed states: “At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.”
Amen

 

[drblank1]

I am looking for a Bible verse where you get this ^^.

It sounds like man-made tradition, frankly.

If you could offer a verse that says being knocked to your knees and collapsing into a heap of crying joy is how you know you’re truly saved, that would be helpful

Sorry, I sometimes forget that I am not conversing with an Evangelical. I cannot cite any scripture on how God dealt with my salvation. But these experiences are common at the moment of salvation for Evangelicals. It’s amazing when the Holy Spirit comes to setup home in us. God touched me with the most tiny/smallest fraction of His glory. When that happens, its amazing and you just know.

You keep calling it an emotional experience. But it was more than that. It was an involuntary emotional, physical, spiritual reaction to God’s Spiritual indwelling.

At that moment, He put truth in my heart. I went from thinking I deserved Heaven because I was a good person to knowing I am a sinner and can never earn it for myself. At that moment, I put my full faith and trust in Jesus to cover me for what no human could ever do for themselves.

Maybe this might help: think about a typical Catholic’s path to salvation. Can you show any specific scripture where an infant was baptized, or someone confessing sins to a priest, or the confirmation process?

 

[drblank1]

Good insight (here) concerning John 15 point ajcstr!

Does Jesus use this imagery (of being “thrown into the fire” where they “wither” and “burn”) to tell someone he is “saved” and headed for Heaven?

No!

Compare this with the 4 soils/seeds parable. And it becomes apparent Jesus is saying those without a genuine faith will not be saved. They won’t take root and grow (seeds). They will not produce fruit (vine branches). And will be thrown into the fire.

 

[James248]

Sorry, I sometimes forget that I am not conversing with an Evangelical. I cannot cite any scripture on how God dealt with my salvation. But these experiences are common at the moment of salvation for Evangelicals. It’s amazing when the Holy Spirit comes to setup home in us. God touched me with the most tiny/smallest fraction of His glory. When that happens, its amazing and you just know.

You keep calling it an emotional experience. But it was more than that. It was an involuntary emotional, physical, spiritual reaction to God’s Spiritual indwelling.

At that moment, He put truth in my heart. I went from thinking I deserved Heaven because I was a good person to knowing I am a sinner and can never earn it for myself. At that moment, I put my full faith and trust in Jesus to cover me for what no human could ever do for themselves.

Maybe this might help: think about a typical Catholic’s path to salvation. Can you show any specific scripture where an infant was baptized, or someone confessing sins to a priest, or the confirmation process?

Jesus instituted the sacrament of confession in John 20. “If you forgive people’s sins they are forgiven.”

In Acts 8, Peter and John confirm several Samaritans.

And in Acts 10, Peter baptizes Cornelius and "his whole household t

 

[James248]

Compare this with the 4 soils/seeds parable. And it becomes apparent Jesus is saying those without a genuine faith will not be saved. They won’t take root and grow (seeds). They will not produce fruit (vine branches). And will be thrown into the fire.

Faith needs to be supplemented with virtue. Jesus is talking about those who didn’t supplement their faith with virtue.

 

[AugustTherese]

In a very basic manner, yes. Works “fit in” to justification as the fruits of faith.

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

 

[ajcstr]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

I believe it is for those in the reformed tradition. Really can’t reconcile that with Sola Fide.

Look at the debates spawned by the “new perspective on Paul”

 

[James248]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

Don’t play yourself.

 

[susanlo]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

I don’t think the debate is whether genuine Christians should have both faith and works. The difference is a slightly different view of the role faith and works.

The fruit vine is a great example. Good fruit are the outcome of a branch that is well connected to a nourishing trunk/vine. The vine (Jesus) will be the source of good fruit (works) in all who stay connected by faith. A disconnected branch can not try very hard to grow good fruit in hopes that the good fruit will cause a connection to the vine. Neither can somebody go out with a long list of do’s and don’ts and think if he checks off more do’s then don’ts, that this will bring him closer to Jesus. Faith causes works. Works do not cause faith. If a Christian isn’t living a life characterized by the fruit of the Spirit, then that indicates a lack of true faith. If one trusts his entire life to the will of Jesus, the fruit of the Spirit will begin to grow and flourish. That is how I always understood it at least.

 

[AugustTherese]

I don’t think the debate is whether genuine Christians should have both faith and works. The difference is a slightly different view of the role faith and works.

The fruit vine is a great example. Good fruit are the outcome of a branch that is well connected to a nourishing trunk/vine. The vine (Jesus) will be the source of good fruit (works) in all who stay connected by faith. A disconnected branch can not try very hard to grow good fruit in hopes that the good fruit will cause a connection to the vine. Neither can somebody go out with a long list of do’s and don’ts and think if he checks off more do’s then don’ts, that this will bring him closer to Jesus. Faith causes works. Works do not cause faith. If a Christian isn’t living a life characterized by the fruit of the Spirit, then that indicates a lack of true faith. If one trusts his entire life to the will of Jesus, the fruit of the Spirit will begin to grow and flourish. That is how I always understood it at least.

Hi Susanlo,

I agree with much of what you’ve said and I think you’re on the right track in terms of justification. Your words echo what Trent promulgated, “If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

However, we have to allow God to work through us, in us, and with us for justification in which I think you beautifully illustrated with your words paraphrasing John 15. Just remember, those works that the Vine produces in Its branches, those are the works that justify us as the branches can do nothing without the Vine.

 

[Porknpie]

In a very basic manner, yes. Works “fit in” to justification as the fruits of faith.

Hello Jon!

You would agree that faith is made complete by works?

Curious, has your view on justification changed from being an LCMS to Anglican? If so, how?

 

[James248]

Hi Susanlo,

I agree with much of what you’ve said and I think you’re on the right track in terms of justification. Your words echo what Trent promulgated, “If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

However, we have to allow God to work through us, in us, and with us for justification in which I think you beautifully illustrated with your words paraphrasing John 15. Just remember, those works that the Vine produces in Its branches, those are the works that justify us as the branches can do nothing without the Vine.

According to the words of our first Pope himself:

2 Peter 1

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Remember the parable of the Talents. The servants didn’t earn their talents, but they still had to work to double them. We don’t earn grace, but we still have to work to double it.

Bless up!!!

 

[MichaelP3]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

Nah you are hoping for too much. Protestants hold to the idea of persevering to the end.

 

[MichaelP3]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

Actually, now that I think about it and I am not sure if this was asked before?

Do you actually believe your good works (and I am also wondering what that actually is, is it something extraordinary or just the normal things expected of a human being. Think of a work performance evaluation… Will it give you a normal rating or a exceptional rating. Just doing what’s expected won’t empress anyone) will merit you in any way on your way to heaven. Do you believe in some kind of Grace meter? Point system? What can you do to get to heaven or impress God?

Regards

 

[AugustTherese]

Actually, now that I think about it and I am not sure if this was asked before?

Do you actually believe your good works (and I am also wondering what that actually is, is it something extraordinary or just the normal things expected of a human being. Think of a work performance evaluation… Will it give you a normal rating or a exceptional rating. Just doing what’s expected won’t empress anyone) will merit you in any way on your way to heaven. Do you believe in some kind of Grace meter? Point system? What can you do to get to heaven or impress God?

Regards

Why do you call them, “[Y]our good works”, as if they are solely mine through my merit alone? You are referring to a heresy knows as Pelagianism that was anathematized in the sixth century.

God produces good works in us, through us, and with us. They are his merits, not ours. We simply allow Him, through our freedom of will, to produce works in us:

“Lord, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us.” (Isaiah 26:12 NKJV)

“make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ.” (Hebrews 13:21 NKJV)

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6 NKJV)

“it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20 NKJV)

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV)

 

[JonNC]

Is it really that hard to plainly say that we are justified by works? I mean, the Bible plainly says we are, why cannot you? :ehh:

From the Lutheran perspective, the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify.
Therefore, it is not a plain saying that we are justified by Works. We are, instead, justified by grace, not by anything we do, and we access it through faith. And from that gift of grace, we are freed to do the good works He places before us to do.

 

[JonNC]

Nah you are hoping for too much. Protestants hold to the idea of persevering to the end.

If you are talking about Calvin’s perseverance of the saints, not all Protestants hold to it.

 

[JonNC]

Hello Jon!

You would agree that faith is made complete by works?

Curious, has your view on justification changed from being an LCMS to Anglican? If so, how?

I wouldn’t necessarily phrase it that way. I certainly believe our listening to the Spirit who guides us into good works is important in our growth in grace.

Hi Pork
My view of justification altered quite a while back, probably in the time of the JDDJ. I think Protestants (generally speaking) miss James’ strong link of works to justification, while I reject the Catholic phrase “faith and works”, unless they clearly state that good works are as much a gift of grace as faith itself.
So, Paul’s phrase that before Christ the only thing that matters is faith working through love seems to describe justification.

Jon

 

[spina1953]

From the Lutheran perspective, the interpretation of James is not a saying that works justify.
Therefore, it is not a plain saying that we are justified by Works. We are, instead, justified by grace, not by anything we do, and we access it through faith. And from that gift of grace, we are freed to do the good works He places before us to do.

Hi JonNC, I tend to agree with you but I think first God prompts us with grace then then we believe which moves us to faith and with faith we do good works in that we really allow God to do His work through us which then justifies us. So in that sense we are partners with God in doing of the good works with Him but never without God.