Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[spina1953]

I happen to agree with you posts Cathoholic! it seems to me when James wrote his Epistle the converted Pharicees in Jerusalem were preaching and teaching that in order to be saved nothing more was needed but faith. One no longer needed to do any good works only have faith which is what James spoke out against. James clearly stated that if one has faith then one does good works. Seems easy to understand to me which is why I wonder about those who seem to think all one needs if faith but has no need to do any good works. faith alone does not save and good works alone does not save, it takes both doing the will of God.

When one reads the Gospels one can see that Jesus was doing good works at every turn and in Acts we see the Apostles and the Disciples were doing plenty of good works along with their faith Something to think about.

 

[drblank1]

Response. The word grew in all of those soils. In this scenario, three souls didn’t produce fruit.

Your question is irrelevant. All the people who Jesus said their faith had saved them performed acts of faith. In Zacchaeus’s situation, his repentance, (A WORK), prompted Jesus to say, “Salvation has come to this house.” Faith made him come up the tree. His repentance gained him salvation.

Faith grew in those 3 soils but died. False/superficial/vain faith. Only one of those faith “good soil” is true faith that produces good works. How do we know those faiths are false? “And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” Philippians 1:6

And the question is most relevant in this faith+works salvation discussion:

“9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, *because *this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” Emphasis added

Zacchaeus’ was saved BECAUSE he had the faith of Abraham. Notice how Jesus didn’t say he was saved because of his works of recompense.

BTW - His repentance wasn’t repaying those he cheated. Repentance means to change one’s mind/turn from sin.

 

[drblank1]

I happen to agree with you posts Cathoholic! it seems to me when James wrote his Epistle the converted Pharicees in Jerusalem were preaching and teaching that in order to be saved nothing more was needed but faith. One no longer needed to do any good works only have faith which is what James spoke out against. James clearly stated that if one has faith then one does good works. Seems easy to understand to me which is why I wonder about those who seem to think all one needs if faith but has no need to do any good works. faith alone does not save and good works alone does not save, it takes both doing the will of God.

When one reads the Gospels one can see that Jesus was doing good works at every turn and in Acts we see the Apostles and the Disciples were doing plenty of good works along with their faith Something to think about.

I think you are close. Genuine faith saves and produces good works. Works are not necessary for salvation but will be produced when salvation is worked by Holy Spirit in a genuine believer.

The uniqueness of James is that it is a book written to believers. There is not any mention of the cross, the resurrection, or Holy Spirit and Jesus is only mentioned twice. It is not a book about faith and how to attain salvation but much like the book of Proverbs that teaches believers practical everyday life lessons.

 

[ajcstr]

Sorry I’m late to respond but am very busy these days:

You totally miss the point of what Jesus was asking of the rich young ruler. This was not a good work that would merit him salvation. Jesus was asking the young man to empty himself; give up his faith in his riches and put all his faith in Jesus. This is a prime example of Jesus’ teaching that faith saves. The young man executed the 10 commandments very well but it wasn’t enough. What the young man “lacked” was faith in Jesus!!!

And of course emptying himself by selling everything he had and giving it to the poor is not a good work … It’s an “act of faith”

AND>>> I never said the good work would MERIT him salvation because then he could boast.

 

[ajcstr]

I think you are close. Genuine faith saves and produces good works. Works are not necessary for salvation but will be produced when salvation is worked by Holy Spirit in a genuine believer.

The uniqueness of James is that it is a book written to believers. There is not any mention of the cross, the resurrection, or Holy Spirit and Jesus is only mentioned twice. It is not a book about faith and how to attain salvation but much like the book of Proverbs that teaches believers practical everyday life lessons.

So then you argue James message to believers is that if they are not performing good works then they have no faith. So what would their solution be, to have more/better faith? Is that what James is suggesting to them?

 

[AugustTherese]

His works would be part of his sanctification which Reformed treat separately from justification.

Please, please do me a favor. Look at what Scripture alone says and use your God-given reason to understand what it is saying:

“Was not Abraham our father ***justified ***by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; *and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.*You see that a person is ***justified ***by works and not by faith alone.*And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute ***justified ***by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?” - James 2:21-25 ESV

Do me another favor; do not go to a Protestant commentary, do not even go to a Catholic and/or Orthodox commentary. Do not go to a Catechism or Confession of some sort. Simply look at what the Bible alone states. If you see the word, ‘sanctification’ instead of ‘justification’ in the passage I included from a Protestant Bible, then I will concede.

The sacrifice of Isaac is described as a test of Abraham after which God told Abraham that He now knew he feared Him. God did not need to test Abraham to know this.

“Oh, let the evil of the wicked come to an end,
****and may you establish the righteous—
you who test the minds and hearts,
****O righteous God!” Psalm 7:9 ESV

“I know, my God, that you test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness.” 1 Chronicles 29:17 ESV

“**ut just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” 1 Thessalonians 2:4 ESV

“Prove me, O Lord, and try me;
****test my heart and my mind.” - Psalm 26:2 ESV

That fits in with the view, that in James, Abraham’s justification before men was what was being dealt with.

“And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15 ESV

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 6:1 ESV

In light of these two verses of Scripture, how can you purport, “Abraham’s justification before men was what was being dealt with”?**

 

[drblank1]

And of course emptying himself by selling everything he had and giving it to the poor is not a good work … It’s an “act of faith”

AND>>> I never said the good work would MERIT him salvation because then he could boast.

My apologies.

 

[spina1953]

James was being confronted by converted Pharicees in Jerusalem who had been teaching that in order to be saved one only needed to have faith and nothing more no works, or good deeds. james spoke out against this saying that faith alone did not save and was a dead faith. Faith and good works or good deeds went together.

Paul on the other hand was being confronted by converted Pharicees who were teaching that in order to be saved the converted Gentiles had to follow the laws of Moses and be circumcised etc. in order to be saved. This is what paul spoke against, that the laws of Moses is not going to save anyone but faith in Christ Jesus. Paul did not say that one did not or no longer needed to do any works or good deeds since in Acts we see that Paul besides preaching was doing good works and or deeds.

Only Christ knows if one has genuine faith and so will judge, we can’t know with certainty whether anyone has genuine faith. One can certainly say they have faith and one can certainly do good works of one kind or another but its in the action that faith comes out while never boasting about it. At least it seems that way to me.

 

[drblank1]

So then you argue James message to believers is that if they are not performing good works then they have no faith. So what would their solution be, to have more/better faith? Is that what James is suggesting to them?

No, I am not making that argument at all and neither is James.

James taught faith endures in the midst of trials, call on God for wisdom, control the tongue, sets aside wickedness, visits orphans and widows, do not play favorites, etc… He teaches the life of faith is comprehensive, impacting every area of our lives and drives us to truly engage in the lives of other people in the world. James even recognized that believers can stumble (James 3:2). He also taught faith should not coexist with people who look down on others, ignore those who need help. This is not a book on faith but a practical guide on living a Christian life. James 2:24 is not a theological statement on salvation but a practical statement to the believer on living out one’s faith. It is a reminder that Jesus wants us engaged with our brothers and sisters in Christ and the world around us.

 

[ajcstr]

My apologies.

LOL, I didn’t mean it like that - no apology needed.

 

[ajcstr]

No, I am not making that argument at all and neither is James.

James taught faith endures in the midst of trials, call on God for wisdom, control the tongue, sets aside wickedness, visits orphans and widows, do not play favorites, etc… He teaches the life of faith is comprehensive, impacting every area of our lives and drives us to truly engage in the lives of other people in the world. James even recognized that believers can stumble (James 3:2). He also taught faith should not coexist with people who look down on others, ignore those who need help. This is not a book on faith but a practical guide on living a Christian life.James 2:24 is not a theological statement on salvation but a practical statement to the believer on living out one’s faith. It is a reminder that Jesus wants us engaged with our brothers and sisters in Christ and the world around us.

I read this twice and while I agree 100%, I just can’t comprehend how you could state this so eloquently and yet deny that our works, our application of our faith, have nothing to do with our justification.

James 2:24 is not a theological statement on salvation but a practical statement to the believer on living out one’s faith. It is a reminder that Jesus wants us engaged with our brothers and sisters in Christ and the world around us.

I had to repeat this thought. Again, how we apply our faith. I think it has much to do with our salvation and I believe that is James point. Jesus was never fond of hypocrites.

 

[drblank1]

I read this twice and while I agree 100%, I just can’t comprehend how you could state this so eloquently and yet deny that our works, our application of our faith, have nothing to do with our justification.

I had to repeat this thought. Again, how we apply our faith. I think it has much to do with our salvation and I believe that is James point. Jesus was never fond of hypocrites.

Easy, think of it this way: the book of James could be titled, “You’re hired! Now what?”

Some chapter titles could include:

• How do you interact with the Boss?
• Training guide and your path to promotion
• What is your role within the company?
• What are you duties?
• Respecting your team and customers
• Expectations and preforming at a high level

I do not believe our works contribute to our salvation because I believe that salvation is a singular event. I believe in the promises of God to we believers: that I have passed from death to life, that I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of Christ, that I am an adopted child of God, that I have eternal life through my faith in Jesus Christ, and the many other promises. We as Christians have these promises. Now what are we going to do in response to these gracious promises?

 

[ajcstr]

Easy, think of it this way: the book of James could be titled, “You’re hired! Now what?”

Some chapter titles could include:

• How do you interact with the Boss?
• Training guide and your path to promotion
• What is your role within the company?
• What are you duties?
• Respecting your team and customers
• Expectations and preforming at a high level

Hmmm - all work related

I do not believe our works contribute to our salvation because I believe that salvation is a singular event. I believe in the promises of God to we believers: that I have passed from death to life, that I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of Christ, that I am an adopted child of God, that I have eternal life through my faith in Jesus Christ, and the many other promises. We as Christians have these promises. Now what are we going to do in response to these gracious promises?

Well, do you think that our works contribute to our sanctification then? I’ve asked this question several times in this thread but have not gotten an answer yet.

 

[ajcstr]

I think you are close. Genuine faith saves and produces good works. Works are not necessary for salvation but will be produced when salvation is worked by Holy Spirit in a genuine believer.

In this situation who is performing the work? I keep hearing that good works are produced but that somehow I am not the one producing them. But on the other hand they are my fruits.

 

[drblank1]

Hmmm - all work related

Exactly my point. You’re hired (saved). Now what (time to go to work)

Well, do you think that our works contribute to our sanctification then? I’ve asked this question several times in this thread but have not gotten an answer yet.

Oh, absolutely!!! But those works must be with pure motives and be in God’s will for our individual lives. Then we can grow in Christ, But ONLY at a rate that is at the sole discretion and pleasure of God. Some may do little and be further along the sanctification process than someone who does much.

In James 1, he tells us trials will come and as we endure, our faith grows (sanctification) stronger. The book of James is practical advice to the authentic Christ follower.

 

[drblank1]

In this situation who is performing the work? I keep hearing that good works are produced but that somehow I am not the one producing them. But on the other hand they are my fruits.

Sorry, I just reread my comment and it is confusion.

Christians do the good works and produce the fruit AFTER the Holy Spirit does His work and produces salvation at our coming to faith in Jesus. I hope that is clearer text.

 

[JonNC]

Sorry I’m late to respond but am very busy these days:

You totally miss the point of what Jesus was asking of the rich young ruler. This was not a good work that would merit him salvation. Jesus was asking the young man to empty himself; give up his faith in his riches and put all his faith in Jesus. This is a prime example of Jesus’ teaching that faith saves. The young man executed the 10 commandments very well but it wasn’t enough. What the young man “lacked” was faith in Jesus!!!

 

[ajcstr]

Sorry, I just reread my comment and it is confusion.

Christians do the good works and produce the fruit AFTER the Holy Spirit does His work and produces salvation at our coming to faith in Jesus. I hope that is clearer text.

Seems like we agree with the steps we just insert the salvation part at different points.

So if Joe Christian has no works, Joe Catholic would say he is not justified because he has no works and Joe Reformer would say he is not justified because he has no faith (because he has no works). That pretty much it?

 

[James248]

Exactly my point. You’re hired (saved). Now what (time to go to work)

Oh, absolutely!!! But those works must be with pure motives and be in God’s will for our individual lives. Then we can grow in Christ, But ONLY at a rate that is at the sole discretion and pleasure of God. Some may do little and be further along the sanctification process than someone who does much.

In James 1, he tells us trials will come and as we endure, our faith grows (sanctification) stronger. The book of James is practical advice to the authentic Christ follower.

James is saying Faith plus Works. Simple answer.

 

[James248]

Sorry I’m late to respond but am very busy these days:

You totally miss the point of what Jesus was asking of the rich young ruler. This was not a good work that would merit him salvation. Jesus was asking the young man to empty himself; give up his faith in his riches and put all his faith in Jesus. This is a prime example of Jesus’ teaching that faith saves. The young man executed the 10 commandments very well but it wasn’t enough. What the young man “lacked” was faith in Jesus!!!

Faith plus works.