D
drblank1
Guest
Faith THEN works.
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drblank1
Guest
I think you are correct that we believe salvation comes at different points.
Tell me if I am wrong but typical Catholic theology would say:
faith+worka+workb+…workn = salvation then more works?
We believe the Biblical position that:
faith = salvation then here come the good works. We would not call Joe a Christian.
I’ve said it before in this thread. Salvation is a singular event. One is saved or not saved. You are or are not adopted into God’s family. You are sealed with he Holy Spirit or you are not. You have eternal life or you do not. Do these promises apply to a Catholic? And if so, when? They apply to Protestants at the moment we come to authentic faith in Jesus Christ’s perfect sacrifice and resurrection. James is not saying that faith and works will save you. When you read the entire chapter, James is saying, you have been saved through faith, NOW GET TO WORK!!!
Remember, this book was written to believers, not unbelievers.God bless
P
PRmerger
Guest
Wait…what?
Today when someone reads the Bible it’s because he’s already saved?
Or are you talking about only the first century Christians?
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Yes, redemption is a one time deal. We agree there.I think you are correct that we believe salvation comes at different points.
Tell me if I am wrong but typical Catholic theology would say:
faith+worka+workb+…workn = salvation then more works?
We believe the Biblical position that:
faith = salvation then here come the good works. We would not call Joe a Christian.
I’ve said it before in this thread. Salvation is a singular event. One is saved or not saved. You are or are not adopted into God’s family. You are sealed with he Holy Spirit or you are not. You have eternal life or you do not. Do these promises apply to a Catholic? And if so, when? They apply to Protestants at the moment we come to authentic faith in Jesus Christ’s perfect sacrifice and resurrection. James is not saying that faith and works will save you. When you read the entire chapter, James is saying, you have been saved through faith, NOW GET TO WORK!!!
God bless
Justification is a process, though.
We all get issued our wedding garments at redemption - and we go on sinning in this life getting them all dirty. Some of us even take the garments off and end up in hell.
James is echoing both the Catholic and Protestant position. That only true faith saves. And true faith involves works.
J
James248
Guest
Faith AND works.
J
James248
Guest
Yep. You’re wrong.
Initial justification is grace and no works. But, once you receive this initial justification, you still have to cooperate with God and persevere in good works. Justification is a process.
Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.
A
ajcstr
Guest
And if you don’t perform these duties do you get fired or does someone tell you that you were never really hired in the first place?
A
ajcstr
Guest
Ephesians 2 10 tell us we are created for good works that God prepared for us and that we should walk in them. But these works are not for wages.
Yes that is a fallible biblical interpretation based on your reformed tradition.
Salvation is a singular event only in that it occurs at the end of life. During our life salvation is a process. Major difference in our theologies. Paul and James point to two different times in Abraham’s life and say he was justified by those respective events. Not a one time event.
If James can make a distinction between faith and works and describe a person who has faith but not works then this must be possible. You would say this person has no faith but that’s not what James is describing. Again, if the person does not get to work, is he still saved under your model? If no, then the difference is works.James is not saying that faith and works will save you. When you read the entire chapter, James is saying, you have been saved through faith, NOW GET TO WORK!!!
God bless
S
spina1953
Guest
I was reading Matthew 20;1-15 And while I’m sure one can read different things in it, My thought is Jesus is saying in a sense faith and good works or deeds work together. In the story, the owner hires throughout the day workers for his vineyard and at the end of the day he pay them all the same. Some complained about those who did not work all day being paid the same.it seems to me that some do good works and deeds all their lives while others do some at different times in their lives and lastly some do good works or deeds at the end of their lives. This I think is also true of faith. Faith like good works or deeds can come at different times to those who are open to it. So faith and good works or deeds may come to those at various times in one’s life but one does not do one without the other sense jesus also said to store up treasures in heaven. So what could these treasures be? I like to think its good works and deeds that one does in their life along with faith. Jesus in all of the Gospels tells us that doing good is important, its all good and fine to say one has faith, but if one does nothing with it as James pointed out what good is it then? yet, Jesus says also that doing good works or deeds just for recognition or praise so that everyone can see thinking they somehow merit or earned does not count. That seems to me to be saying faith is all I need is not going to save, just sa saying i do good works or deeds so all can see does not save either.
Faith and good works and or deeds go together, but in a way that is not boastful and not looking for praise and recognition for doing so. yet, we are to be a light that shines so that those who do see will give praise and thanks to God the Father. I also believe one can’t do and good works or deeds or even have faith unless God first prompts us and we accept that prompting. So in the end, its how we look at it and how we respond to faith and good works or deeds we do.
One other thing, it does not matter how much good works or deeds one does, its more what God decides what those good works or deeds are that it is it done with love or not.
Faith and good works and or deeds go together, but in a way that is not boastful and not looking for praise and recognition for doing so. yet, we are to be a light that shines so that those who do see will give praise and thanks to God the Father. I also believe one can’t do and good works or deeds or even have faith unless God first prompts us and we accept that prompting. So in the end, its how we look at it and how we respond to faith and good works or deeds we do.
One other thing, it does not matter how much good works or deeds one does, its more what God decides what those good works or deeds are that it is it done with love or not.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
ajcstr to drblank1:
St. Paul also makes the same distinction in 1st Corinthians 13. We looked at that phenomenon with St. Paul earlier.
The Council of Trent asserted this exact same possibility too (and anathematized those who deny it).
drblank1. Why do you keep divorcing sanctification from salvation?
(I’ve already shown that St. Paul explicitly ties these together. Why not just think of them the SAME way as St. Paul??)
Good insight here ajcstr.
St. Paul also makes the same distinction in 1st Corinthians 13. We looked at that phenomenon with St. Paul earlier.
The Council of Trent asserted this exact same possibility too (and anathematized those who deny it).
drblank1. Why do you keep divorcing sanctification from salvation?
(I’ve already shown that St. Paul explicitly ties these together. Why not just think of them the SAME way as St. Paul??)
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless James and every readers of the CAF.
The Catholic teachings on predestination is clear.
As it is Dogma of the Catholic Church, it is high level teachings.
**CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION
EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:
(a) one to heaven …
(b) one to the pains of hell …
However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation”, so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the reprobation of the wicked.
This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.
The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:
(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell.
In order to emphasize how mysterious and unapproachable is Divine election, the Council of Trent calls predestination “hidden mystery”.
Why is it that Peter the Apostle rose again after his fall and persevered till his death, while Judas Iscariot, his fellow-Apostle, hanged himself and thus frustrated his salvation?
Though correct, the answer that Judas went to perdition of his own free will, while Peter faithfully co-operated with the grace of conversion offered him, DOES NOT CLEAR UP THE ENIGMA.
FOR THE QUESTION RECURES:
Why did not God give to Judas the same efficacious, infallibly successful grace of conversion as to St. Peter, whose blasphemous denial of the Lord was **a sin no less grievous than that of the traitor Judas? **
To all these and similar questions the only reasonable reply is the word of St. Augustine (loc. cit., 21): “Inscrutabilia sunt judicia Dei” (the judgments of God are inscrutable).
Continue
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LatinRight
Guest
Continuation
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS HEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
All of the above excerpts taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Predestination.
THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS CONFIRMS THE ABOVE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”
Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange says that “in every good work, we do not begin.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.
SUMMARY
**The Catholic position on predestination to hell: **
With Catholic terminology, decree the Divine reprobation, which means; negative predestination to hell.
Only those predestined to hell from all eternity who are rejecting God and His grace.
Positive predestination to hell is heresy.
According to positive predestination, God predestines people to hell unconditionally.
God bless James and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS HEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
All of the above excerpts taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Predestination.
THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS CONFIRMS THE ABOVE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION
John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”
2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”
Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”
John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
Similarly, the Council of Orange says that “in every good work, we do not begin.” (#329.2)
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.
SUMMARY
**The Catholic position on predestination to hell: **
With Catholic terminology, decree the Divine reprobation, which means; negative predestination to hell.
Only those predestined to hell from all eternity who are rejecting God and His grace.
Positive predestination to hell is heresy.
According to positive predestination, God predestines people to hell unconditionally.
God bless James and every readers of the CAF.
LatinRight
J
James248
Guest
You could simply keep it simple:
God desires all men to be saved and through the death of His Son has drawn all to Him. However, we can refuse to accept His gift of forgiveness. God knows who will accept Him and who will not.
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless James and every readers of the CAF.
**I don’t believe **it is good idea to bury the treasure Christ given to us.
Matt.28:19-20;
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
God bless.
LatinRight
A
ajcstr
Guest
Here is what I have gleamed from this thread as far as the protestant argument.
Works are not necessary for justification
Justification is by faith alone and per James it must be a saving faith vs a dead faith
Works are evidence of a saving faith
Works are not necessary for justification
Justification is by faith alone and per James it must be a saving faith vs a dead faith
Works are evidence of a saving faith
I would change the second line to that justification is not accessed by works.
And the last line : Works are necessary and are evidence of a saving faith
C
Cathoholic
Guest
I said in post 459 to SyCarl:
Before I get started I want to say most of this came from Steve Ray’s excellent items on this topic.
Steve Ray does the best job that I have heard unpacking the Abraham/justification issue.
See here and here and here.
catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AbrahamFaithAlone.pdf
steveraysstore.com/cd-born-again-faith-alone-what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/
lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/abraham-revealing-the-historical-roots-of-our-faith
SyCarl in post 435 stated . . . . .
SyCarl is intimating that when St. Paul talks about Abraham in Romans 4 (where St. Paul is drawing upon Genesis 15) is when Abraham was REALLY justified and ONLY HERE.
SyCarl implies that St. James on the other hand references Genesis 22 which comes later than Genesis 15, for Abraham’s justification (at the time of the offering of Isaac on Mount Moriah).
Since St. James said Abraham was justified in Genesis 22, . . . .
. . . . . but St. Paul said Abraham was justified earlier, in Genesis 15, . . . .
. . . . St. Paul MUST be correct and St. James MUST be . . . well . . . not “wrong” but according to SyCarl’s logic, James SHOULD have added the words justified “before men” to his text because Abraham was merely being justified before men according to SyCarl.
(Correct me if I am wrong SyCarl).
Buuut. Since St. James DIDN’T put “before men” in the text, SyCarl can really add that implication into the text.
SyCarl would say its because of the “context”.
I would say Sy Carl NEEDS to say that because of SyCarl’s PRESUPPOSITION that salvation is a MOMENT ALONE (whereas the Church teaches salvation is a moment followed by a process. A lifelong process)…
SyCarl in post 435 . . . .
Sy Carl insists . . . .
SyCarl??
***Continued . . . . ***
***For readers of this thread that want to know more on this Abraham/justification topic . . . . ***
Before I get started I want to say most of this came from Steve Ray’s excellent items on this topic.
Steve Ray does the best job that I have heard unpacking the Abraham/justification issue.
See here and here and here.
catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AbrahamFaithAlone.pdf
steveraysstore.com/cd-born-again-faith-alone-what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/
lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/abraham-revealing-the-historical-roots-of-our-faith
SyCarl in post 435 stated . . . . .
Let’s look at that because it is a partial truth.
SyCarl is intimating that when St. Paul talks about Abraham in Romans 4 (where St. Paul is drawing upon Genesis 15) is when Abraham was REALLY justified and ONLY HERE.
SyCarl implies that St. James on the other hand references Genesis 22 which comes later than Genesis 15, for Abraham’s justification (at the time of the offering of Isaac on Mount Moriah).
Since St. James said Abraham was justified in Genesis 22, . . . .
. . . . . but St. Paul said Abraham was justified earlier, in Genesis 15, . . . .
. . . . St. Paul MUST be correct and St. James MUST be . . . well . . . not “wrong” but according to SyCarl’s logic, James SHOULD have added the words justified “before men” to his text because Abraham was merely being justified before men according to SyCarl.
(Correct me if I am wrong SyCarl).
Buuut. Since St. James DIDN’T put “before men” in the text, SyCarl can really add that implication into the text.
SyCarl would say its because of the “context”.
I would say Sy Carl NEEDS to say that because of SyCarl’s PRESUPPOSITION that salvation is a MOMENT ALONE (whereas the Church teaches salvation is a moment followed by a process. A lifelong process)…
SyCarl in post 435 . . . .
(emphasis mine)
Sy Carl insists . . . .
Do you mean that Scripture itself SAYING this wasn’t enough
SyCarl??***Continued . . . . ***
C
Cathoholic
Guest
It is true that in Genesis 15 Abraham was declared righteous before Genesis 22 (when Abraham was willing to offer Isaac).
But as we look we will see Abraham was a “Believer” even before Genesis 15 too!
This does not mean Abraham wasn’t “declared righteous” in Genesis 15. He WAS.
But if Abraham was a “believer” before Genesis, then it suggests the PROCESS of Abraham’s justification EVEN using SyCarl’s logic of justification by faith ALONE.
And it ALSO suggests MORE than a mere moment to Abraham’s justification.
So instead of seeing St. Paul and affirming that, but being forced to say something DIFFERENT than what St. James says (which is what SyCarl was forced to do) . . . .
Catholics will see Abraham as believing AND OBEYING BEFORE Genesis 15 in Genesis 12 (and thus being justified there in Genesis 12-- see Hebrews 11), believing in Genesis 15 (again being justified there too–see St. Paul in Romans 4), and acting in Genesis 22 (and being justified there as well–see St. James in Romans 2).
In other words Catholics affirm ALL the verses and don’t add in the words “before men”.
But wait! There’s more!
SyCarl is going to be forced to pick and choose verses and “interpret away” St. James but saying St. James means something DIFFERENT than what he says.
SyCarl thinks because St. James taught Abraham being justified in the context of his WORKS, that James MUST be teaching Abraham merely was being “justified before men” (instead of the obvious . . . Abraham furthering his PROCESS of justification).
Here is the “more”.
Also SyCarl you ignored the fact that Abraham had faith BEFORE Genesis 15 too!
(Does that mean St. Paul in Romans 4 was only referring to Abraham being “justified before men” too SyCarl?
Or can you only ADD the words “before men” to the Scriptures concerning justification when you need it to fit into your tradition of justification being a moment ALONE?)
SyCarl ignores the fact that Abraham was believing in God BEFORE St. Paul’s reference of Genesis 15.
SyCarl ignores the fact that Abraham was believing in God in Genesis 12!
Don’t buy it.
Why?
Because here is Hebrews talking about this very issue (but it doesn’t fit into SyCarl’s tradition. Why not? Because Hebrews 11 referring to Genesis 12, talks about faith AND WORKS (“obedience”).
So we don’t need to read Genesis 12 and be left with mere speculation. Hebrews settles the issue for us.
Abraham had “faith” and “obeyed” even BEFORE St. Paul’s reference in Romans 4 (concerning Genesis 15).
That fits perfectly with what St. Paul teaches too. That a saving faith NECESSARILY OBEYS.
And THAT OBEDIENT FAITH is the context for all of Romans.
Again . . . . A saving faith is described by that SAME St. Paul in that SAME Letter to the Romans as . . . . an “OBEDIENT” FAITH. (So if we applied St. Paul’s inspired wisdom in our interpretation of Romans 4, we wouldn’t even have needed to have this discussion).
And the reason these works or “obedience” are efficacious, is because Christ is able to STRENGTHEN YOU!
In Summary . . . .
Abraham was justified in Genesis 12.
Abraham was justified in Genesis 15.
Abraham was justified in Genesis 22.
And that’s WHY Catholics believe ALL the verses.
And that’s (part of) why Catholics see justification as a PROCESS and not a mere moment ALONE.
And that’s WHY Catholics believe the verses at face value and don’t have to ADD IN (even in our mind) that Abraham was justified merely “before men” in James 2 when the verse never says such.
Just for reference to save you readers the hassle, I will post the verses for you too.
But as we look we will see Abraham was a “Believer” even before Genesis 15 too!
This does not mean Abraham wasn’t “declared righteous” in Genesis 15. He WAS.
But if Abraham was a “believer” before Genesis, then it suggests the PROCESS of Abraham’s justification EVEN using SyCarl’s logic of justification by faith ALONE.
And it ALSO suggests MORE than a mere moment to Abraham’s justification.
So instead of seeing St. Paul and affirming that, but being forced to say something DIFFERENT than what St. James says (which is what SyCarl was forced to do) . . . .
Catholics will see Abraham as believing AND OBEYING BEFORE Genesis 15 in Genesis 12 (and thus being justified there in Genesis 12-- see Hebrews 11), believing in Genesis 15 (again being justified there too–see St. Paul in Romans 4), and acting in Genesis 22 (and being justified there as well–see St. James in Romans 2).
In other words Catholics affirm ALL the verses and don’t add in the words “before men”.
But wait! There’s more!
SyCarl is going to be forced to pick and choose verses and “interpret away” St. James but saying St. James means something DIFFERENT than what he says.
SyCarl thinks because St. James taught Abraham being justified in the context of his WORKS, that James MUST be teaching Abraham merely was being “justified before men” (instead of the obvious . . . Abraham furthering his PROCESS of justification).
Here is the “more”.
Also SyCarl you ignored the fact that Abraham had faith BEFORE Genesis 15 too!
(Does that mean St. Paul in Romans 4 was only referring to Abraham being “justified before men” too SyCarl?
Or can you only ADD the words “before men” to the Scriptures concerning justification when you need it to fit into your tradition of justification being a moment ALONE?)
SyCarl ignores the fact that Abraham was believing in God BEFORE St. Paul’s reference of Genesis 15.
SyCarl ignores the fact that Abraham was believing in God in Genesis 12!
Now SyCarl will have to try to tell you that we don’t know for sure if Abraham was a believer in Genesis 12.
Don’t buy it.
Why?
Because here is Hebrews talking about this very issue (but it doesn’t fit into SyCarl’s tradition. Why not? Because Hebrews 11 referring to Genesis 12, talks about faith AND WORKS (“obedience”).
Again, here above we see Hebrews talking about Abraham in the context of faith AND WORKS (“obedience”).
So we don’t need to read Genesis 12 and be left with mere speculation. Hebrews settles the issue for us.
Abraham had “faith” and “obeyed” even BEFORE St. Paul’s reference in Romans 4 (concerning Genesis 15).
That fits perfectly with what St. Paul teaches too. That a saving faith NECESSARILY OBEYS.
And THAT OBEDIENT FAITH is the context for all of Romans.
Again . . . . A saving faith is described by that SAME St. Paul in that SAME Letter to the Romans as . . . . an “OBEDIENT” FAITH. (So if we applied St. Paul’s inspired wisdom in our interpretation of Romans 4, we wouldn’t even have needed to have this discussion).
And St. Paul tells us the SAME thing in Romans 16 too.
And the reason these works or “obedience” are efficacious, is because Christ is able to STRENGTHEN YOU!
In Summary . . . .
Abraham was justified in Genesis 12.
Abraham was justified in Genesis 15.
Abraham was justified in Genesis 22.
And that’s WHY Catholics believe ALL the verses.
And that’s (part of) why Catholics see justification as a PROCESS and not a mere moment ALONE.
And that’s WHY Catholics believe the verses at face value and don’t have to ADD IN (even in our mind) that Abraham was justified merely “before men” in James 2 when the verse never says such.
Just for reference to save you readers the hassle, I will post the verses for you too.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
**(Part of) The PROCESS of the Justification of Abraham. **
Abraham was justified in Genesis 12
So which set of verses do you believe?
If you are Catholic you believe ALL the verses. And don’t add the word justified “before men” to any of them.
Abraham was justified in Genesis 12
Abraham was justified in Genesis 15
Abraham was justified in Genesis 22
So which set of verses do you believe?
If you are Catholic you believe ALL the verses. And don’t add the word justified “before men” to any of them.
A
ajcstr
Guest
Ok so works are necessary to have a saving faith and a saving faith is necessary for justification. My inner Spock is very confused.
So - what is the solution for James audience? Perform works or increase/reestablish their faith ?
- Status