Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[JonNC]

Ok so works are necessary to have a saving faith and a saving faith is necessary for justification. My inner Spock is very confused.

So - what is the solution for James audience? Perform works or increase/reestablish their faith ?

Paul clears it up: a faith that works through love. Of this, Luther expresses the obvious, to think that since Works do not justify let us do no Works is to despise the gospel, to despise grace.
We perform good works out of joyful compliance to His command that we to so, in service to our fellow man out of love for him.

 

[ajcstr]

Luther expresses the obvious, to think that since Works do not justify let us do no Works is to despise the gospel, to despise grace.

“since works do not justify us” - Luther

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James

 

[ajcstr]

I have recommended this before - to both Catholics and Protestants. This is the best discussion I have heard on the topic. In the first talk, Dr. Pitre gives an overview of the New Perspective on Paul and in the 2nd talk walks through the Catholic doctrine of justification as defined in the council of Trent and the CCC. For under $10 its really worth it.

store.catholicproductions.com/products/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved-the-new-perspective-on-paul-and-the-catholic-doctrine-of-justification?variant=&variant=16598547841&variant=16706816705

 

[AugustTherese]

Of this, Luther expresses the obvious, to think that since Works do not justify

Who honestly cares what Luther expresses or thinks?! No offense, but if you want to use Scripture alone, go to Scripture alone and not to what Luther thought of what Scripture alone says.

Luther: “Works do not justify”.

Bible alone: “You see that a person is justified by works”.

This part of Saint James’ epistle is not written in hyperbole, allegory, or idiom. It is not meant to be a riddle, parable, or symbolic revelation. This is an explicit and unambiguous exhortation that means what its states, “a person is justified by works”.

 

[ajcstr]

lanman87 posted this on another thread - he may have cracked the case…

*I’ve also learned that Catholics don’t think like Protestants. Protestants tend to think in binary terms. You are either saved or lost, you either have faith or you don’t, you either sin or you don’t. You’re either forgiven or your not. You’ve been given the gift of grace or you haven’t.

Catholics, on the other hand, tend to think in layers. You don’t just have grace, you identify different kinds of grace, you don’t just have sin, you identify different levels of sin. You’re not saved or lost, but you on a journey where you hope to be saved in the end. God doesn’t just give you grace because of faith but He provides different avenues by which He offers you grace… *

Though I would argue that his last sentence is probably not correct, this “Mars/Venus” probably has a lot of validity (ie. faith OR works vs. faith AND works)

 

[pablope]

Paul clears it up: a faith that works through love.

We perform good works out of joyful compliance to His command that we to so, in service to our fellow man out of love for him.

So, based on your highlighted statement, works then are like an auto response, not out of an inward change and growth in man to do good works?

 

[ajcstr]

We perform good works out of joyful compliance to His command that we to so, in service to our fellow man out of love for him.

Again, going back to James, is the “takeaway” to

1. go out and perform works that will demonstrate faith
   or
2. reexamine your faith if it is not producing works

 

[JonNC]

Who honestly cares what Luther expresses or thinks?! No offense, but if you want to use Scripture alone, go to Scripture alone and not to what Luther thought of what Scripture alone says.

.

No offense taken, but as soon as you make such a dismissive comment, you cut off conversation.

Additionally, you have to know who you are talking with. As I said, I am not particularly tied to Lutheran teaching anymore, but I think I have a decent grasp of it, and your use of a rather un-Lutheran definition of Sola scriptura doesn’t help either.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Who honestly cares what Luther expresses or thinks?! No offense, but if you want to use Scripture alone, go to Scripture alone and not to what Luther thought of what Scripture alone says.

Luther: “Works do not justify”.

Bible alone: “You see that a person is justified by works”.

This part of Saint James’ epistle is not written in hyperbole, allegory, or idiom. It is not meant to be a riddle, parable, or symbolic revelation. This is an explicit and unambiguous exhortation that means what its states, “a person is justified by works”.

So, it is easy to find the Lutheran view of James 2, and it stays at 123 in the article on Love in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

"From James 2:24 they cite: Ye see, then, how by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone. Nor is any other passage supposed to be more contrary to our belief. But the reply is easy and plain. If the adversaries do not attach their own opinions concerning the merits of works, the words of James have in them nothing that is of disadvantage."

The issue is not works. The issue, for the Lutheran, is the issue of merit attached to works.
I have brought this up on a few occasions on this thread, with little response.
If justification is of grace, freely given, then even if justification comes by faith and works, we cannot claim merit for any growth in grace or justification.
James never claims that our works merit forgiveness of sins or merit grace.

So, again, the Lutheran if he is true to the confessions, can accept that justification is of both faith and works if the Catholic can be true to James by not claiming our works merit forgiveness of sin and grace.

bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php

 

[JonNC]

Again, going back to James, is the “takeaway” to

1. go out and perform works that will demonstrate faith
   or
2. reexamine your faith if it is not producing works

Why not both?

 

[JonNC]

So, based on your highlighted statement, works then are like an auto response, not out of an inward change and growth in man to do good works?

Where do you get that? In fact, it is remarkably contrary to what Luther states:

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

 

[spina1953]

I have to say JonNC that you have been making a lot of sense in how you are understanding what we Catholic’s say as well as the Lutheran point of view.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yes, when you quote this verse in a vacuum, it appears to condemn faith alone. But when you read the verse in the context of the entire chapter, the verse takes on an entirely new meaning. Just going back to v.14 is enough to put v.24 into context.

vs 14-16 are summed up in v.17 “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Another good word to use for dead is FALSE.

v. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James is saying his works are a RESULT and PROOF of his faith.

Read verse 19: even the devil knows FIRST HAND that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Yet is he saved? Knowing or just saying that you believe it is not the same as a God-given true faith.

vs. 21 to 23 James speaks of Abraham’s faith decades into his faith walk with God. (Genesis 22) It was a test (and boy was it a test!!!) of his faith from God. Then James and Paul (in Romans 4) jump back to when Abraham was converted and tells us he was saved due to his faith. Genesis 15:6

James is summarizing that anyone who professes to be a Christian but produces no works has a dead or false faith.

When we are born-again, God makes us a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and because of that and our love and devotion to Jesus, we a COMPELLED to work in God’s Kingdom and produce the fruit He reserves for us (Galatians 5:22-24). So I entirely agree with James when he says faith is false if it doesn’t produce works/fruits. True faith is proven by our Kingdom works.

Our works are proof of our living faith. As John TB said in Matthew 3:8, “Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.”

God bless you my friend.

What I take from the above is that if works are proof of our faith, then those without works do not have a living faith.

We do works then to have a living faith, by which we are saved.

Works then save us.

Or, lack of works equals lack of faith equals lack of salvation.

Or, lack of works equals lack of salvation.

 

[mackbrislawn]

This is not a book on faith but a practical guide on living a Christian life. James 2:24 is not a theological statement on salvation but a practical statement to the believer on living out one’s faith. It is a reminder that Jesus wants us engaged with our brothers and sisters in Christ and the world around us.

Okay, so why is living a Christian life important? If we are already saved and going to heaven, and James is not a theological statement on salvation, why bother doing what Jesus wants us to do?

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. You said (here with emphasis mine). . . .

The issue is not works. The issue, for the Lutheran, is the issue of merit attached to works.

I have brought this up on a few occasions on this thread, with little response.

If justification is of grace, freely given, then even if justification comes by faith and works, we cannot claim merit for any growth in grace or justification.

**James never claims that our works merit forgiveness of sins or merit grace. **

JonNC. I am absolutely nonplussed that you would say such a thing.

Let’s look at this in pieces.

The issue, for the Lutheran, is the issue of merit attached to works.
I have brought this up on a few occasions on this thread, with little response.

My biggest concern was I was putting up waaayyy too MUCH information here concerning Merit.

• I went into merit in post 221 (here).
• I went into merit in post 229 (here).
• I went into merit in post 230 (here).
• I went into merit in post 234 (here).

Is this REALLY “little response”?

Occasionally I take criticism for saying too much here.

I have lots MORE “stuff” on merit.

What would you like me to do? I don’t want to overtake the thread, but I don’t want to be neglectful either.

JonNC. You said . . . .

James never claims that our works merit forgiveness of sins or merit grace.

Yet we see that is EXACTLY what St. James says.

JAMES 1:12 12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

JonNC. I’ll have you know I am totally incapable of “saving my soul” and “covering sins” on my own.

Yet there it is in James in some sense!

What “sense” could James be talking about?

This can ONLY be IN CHRIST!

And in fact THAT is what James ALSO said . . . .

JAMES 1:16-17 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

This is talking about “grace”.

Cooperating in grace you can “cover sin”, “save your soul”, calling upon “Elders” or “presbyters” to anoint and hear your Confession for the “forgiveness of sins”, etc.

St. James teaches the exact same thing as St. Paul.

St. Paul is a little less explicit concerning the word “ALONE” and you have to look around to get it all, but its all there. The exact same teaching as James.

 

[Cathoholic]

Primary source of good works = charity (Charity which is a SUPERNATURAL virtue. Charity is a grace).

CCC 1853c . . . in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS “Charity is the form, mover, mother, and root of all the virtues.”

Merit (yet another example):

1st CORINTHIANS 9:16b-17, 23 Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward; but if not of my own will, I am entrusted with a commission. . . . . . 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

---

For readers of this thread (Typo alert!):

I said in post 506 . . .

Catholics will see Abraham as believing AND OBEYING BEFORE Genesis 15 in Genesis 12 (and thus being justified there in Genesis 12-- see Hebrews 11), believing in Genesis 15 (again being justified there too–see St. Paul in Romans 4), and acting in Genesis 22 (and being justified there as well–see St. James in Romans 2).

I meant to say . . . .

Catholics will see Abraham as believing AND OBEYING BEFORE Genesis 15 in Genesis 12 (and thus being justified there in Genesis 12-- see Hebrews 11), believing in Genesis 15 (again being justified there too–see St. Paul in Romans 4), and acting in Genesis 22 (and being justified there as well–see St. James in James 2).

My apologies.

---

Recapitulation of another point . . . .

Sy Carl was positing justification by faith ALONE and was using Abraham in Genesis 15 (from St. Paul in Romans 4) to exemplify it.

I pointed using THAT SAME line of thinking, Hebrews 11 tells us Abraham was justified (because after all, Abraham was EXPLICITLY described as having had “faith” AND by the way, he also had “obedience”) in Genesis 12 (3 chapters BEFORE Genesis 15).

I told Sy Carl I agree that Abraham WAS justified in Genesis 15. But it seems Sy Carl is DENYING Abraham is justified in Genesis 12.

James tells us Abraham was justified in Genesis 22 (Sy Carl tried to DENY that too. Sy Carl denied that by ADDING to the verse in James 2 that Abraham was merely “justified before men” there).

Using that logic, Abraham would have ONLY been justified “before men” from St. Paul’s teaching in Romans 4 too.

AugustTherese (appropriately) brought up that . . . . attempts at justification before men may even be “an abomination in the sight of God.” (here).

“And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15 ESV

Why think Abraham is merely being justified “before men” if the Bible doesn’t say such a thing. (Interpreting it into the text was not persuasive).

GREAT POINT on the “justification before men” issue AugustTherese.

Yet Sy Carl apparently is sticking with his (her?) Abraham merely being “justified before men” theory even though the Scriptures don’t say that.

---

***To readers of this thread . . . ***

If you AFFIRM (as I do) that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, and that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, and that Abraham was justified in Genesis 22, what do you have?

You have a very good illustration that justification is a PROCESS instead of a MERE moment.

(Justification IS a moment, but not a **MERE **moment. Justification is a moment followed by a process. A lifelong process.)

COUNCIL OF TRENT He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;

REVELATION 22:11b (DRV) he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.

Justification is a process.

---

• WHY say something about Abraham, that St. Paul never says (faith “ALONE”)?
• And WHY ignore other things about Abraham? (Like Hebrews 11)
• And WHY say something that ADDS to what St. James says about Abraham? (Like this merely “justification before men” tradition)

My suggestion? Just believe ALL the verses about Abraham.

Believe Paul in Romans 4.
Believe Hebrews in Hebrews 11.
Believe James in James 2.

And DON’T ADD in the phrase **justification “before men” **when its NOT in the passage!

The problem is, if you do that, if you believe ALL the verses for what they say . . . The verses lead you to . . . . Catholic doctrine.

And THAT’S the real issue.

---

 

[JonNC]

JonNC. You said (here with emphasis mine). . . .

JonNC. I am absolutely nonplussed that you would say such a thing.

Let’s look at this in pieces.

My biggest concern was I was putting up waaayyy too MUCH information here concerning Merit.

• I went into merit in post 221 (here).
• I went into merit in post 229 (here).
• I went into merit in post 230 (here).
• I went into merit in post 234 (here).

Is this REALLY “little response”?

Occasionally I take criticism for saying too much here.

I have lots MORE “stuff” on merit.

What would you like me to do? I don’t want to overtake the thread, but I don’t want to be neglectful either.

JonNC. You said . . . .

Yet we see that is EXACTLY what St. James says.

JonNC. I’ll have you know I am totally incapable of “saving my soul” and “covering sins” on my own.

Yet there it is in James in some sense!

What “sense” could James be talking about?

This can ONLY be IN CHRIST!

And in fact THAT is what James ALSO said . . . .

This is talking about “grace”.

Cooperating in grace you can “cover sin”, “save your soul”, calling upon “Elders” or “presbyters” to anoint and hear your Confession for the “forgiveness of sins”, etc.

St. James teaches the exact same thing as St. Paul.

St. Paul is a little less explicit concerning the word “ALONE” and you have to look around to get it all, but its all there. The exact same teaching as James.

Let me rephrase my comment, as you are correct, you have responded to this, at least in part. My apologies for the way I phrased it.

COUNCIL OF TRENT If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, - if so be, however, that he depart in grace, - and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. – Council of Trent — Canon 32

The good works of one that is justified…

Again, how does one read Trent here? Good works come from one who IS justified.
But even at that, we cannot work to earn justification. Justification is a work of the living God in us. As such, faith and good works are a gift. They have to be if justification is a free gift of grace. One cannot earn a gift. One can’t merit forgiveness of sin

JAMES 1:12 12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

And you see this as meriting forgiveness? Question: can one do this on their own? If yes, then grace is merited.

Quote:
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Again, who is doing this action on their own, such that they merit. ?

Is not James speaking to the justified?

More later

 

[lanman87]

Okay, so why is living a Christian life important? If we are already saved and going to heaven, and James is not a theological statement on salvation, why bother doing what Jesus wants us to do?

I’ll try and answer this from what I was taught as a Southern Baptist. When we are born again we become children of God. We enter into a relationship with God through Jesus then God becomes “Our Father”. Therefore, as His children, and because of our love for Him and the sacrifice He made on our behalf we seek to do His will. We want to be obedient children and grow in our faith and love of God. We understand that being obedient, by fleeing from a sinful lifestyle, sharing our faith, serving those in need and allowing the Holy Spirit to produce the fruits of the spirit in our life not only keeps us from falling under the discipline of Our Father but also protects us from the consequences of sin here on earth. We also understand that by being obedient we are storing up treasures in Heaven. In addition, we have the joy of seeing others be influenced by the Gospel message by our testimony (what we say) and witness (how we live).

In other words, we don’t see obedience as something we have to do be “saved” we see it as something we get to do joyfully because we have been “saved” and continue to be “saved”, by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling within us.

 

[ajcstr]

Why not both?

Both is fine. My point is (1) implies synergism, while (2) by itself implies monergism.

The issue is not works. The issue, for the Lutheran, is the issue of merit attached to works.

That’s not entirely true. yes it is an issue and in my opinion a more controversial issue than this. The issue with James 2:24 from a Lutheran point of view - and I’m not putting words in your mouth, you can tell me if I am off base - to me deals with depravity and synergism. Man’s will is incapable of performing ANY good work to cooperate with God’s grace. So any good works are by Grace through faith alone with no cooperation of the individual.

 

[AugustTherese]

So, it is easy to find the Lutheran view of James 2, and it stays at 123 in the article on Love in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

The issue is not works. The issue, for the Lutheran, is the issue of merit attached to works.
I have brought this up on a few occasions on this thread, with little response.
If justification is of grace, freely given, then even if justification comes by faith and works, we cannot claim merit for any growth in grace or justification.
James never claims that our works merit forgiveness of sins or merit grace.

So, again, the Lutheran if he is true to the confessions, can accept that justification is of both faith and works if the Catholic can be true to James by not claiming our works merit forgiveness of sin and grace.

Please define, ‘merit’.