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James248
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It is.
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Not when it a part of an ongoing discussion.
Correct, which is why the term Protestant has no value in this type of discussion
No, it isn’t a behemoth. Protestant is a very general term used in a general way to generally categorize western Christian communities that are not in communion with Rome. In many cases, some may have a closer direct tie to Rome than to reach other
Jon
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PRmerger
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We’ll have to agree to disagree here, friend.
This is an obscenity/monstrosity/behemoth.
And this is only a drop in the bucket.
For it doesn’t include the independent corner churches which are popping up on every street corner in every city in the world.
Like this:
And this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23987&d=1496408974
Nor does it count the independent churches which are meeting in homes. In fact, my next door neighbors have started their own church, with 5 family members, with their own “Biblical” beliefs.
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lanman87
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An outward sign of an inward grace was taught by Saint Augustine and I’ve seen it all over Catholic literature
I apologize, you are correct, I should have said *most *Protestants. There are a few protestant traditions in which the teachings on grace are similar to the RCC teachings.
Well, as I’m Baptist and we don’t baptize infants I would say baptizing infants is neither an outward sign of an inward grace nor a merit of grace.
Baptist (and many protestants) believe that grace is received by faith. That faith in Christ is the only vehicle of grace that the Bible teaches. Everything we do as Christians is a response to having already received grace and not something done to obtain/merit additional grace. We worship, give, serve, take communion, study, witness, repent, confess, and even love because God has adopted us and made us new creations. He adopted us because we have accepted the gift of grace by our faith in Jesus and what Jesus did for us on the cross and though His resurrection. This is a subtle but distinct difference between Baptist (and many protestants) and the RCC. We believe that our positions as Children of God is what keeps us in a state of Grace. And our sanctification is a response of having received grace and sonship.
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PRmerger
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Then you are not a Bible Alone advocate?
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lanman87
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I believe Augustine and other church fathers should be listened to just as we would listen to any teacher of the Gospel. The early church fathers were not Apostles and their words are not inspired scripture so therefore we must test what they said against scripture. Because they were not writing God Breathed scripture then we must realize that their teachings are influenced by experiences, circumstances, culture, philosophy, personal prejudices, and what they had been taught by others.
Baptist confirm that baptism is *an outward sign of an inward grace *because we believe it confirms a biblical teaching. That God does a work in us by grace and we express that work through Baptism.
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PRmerger
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Just as a point of teaching, Ian, the Catholic Church is not Roman.
The Roman, or Latin rite, of the universal Catholic Church is just but one of many rites/churches.
That’s why our Catechism isn’t called the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, but rather just plain Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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You’re switching your arguments here a bit, Ian.
You initially were proposing that Catholics say that grace must be merited.
I gave an example of baptism of infants, which demonstrates that grace is given without merit. This contradicts your objection to Catholicism.
What say you to this?
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PRmerger
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So…through cooperation with God. One assents to what God desires.
I think clearly this is contradicted by any Christian who has sinned.
That is, every Christian on earth today above the age of reason.
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PRmerger
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Fair enough.
Then you are ok with Catholicism professing teachings that the ECFs proclaimed, such as the Assumption of Mary, purgatory, praying to Saints?
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lanman87
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My understanding of Catholic theology is that initial grace isn’t merited but after initial grace then sanctifying grace is merited by cooperating with God through the sacraments and good works. That God isn’t limited by the sacraments but the sacraments, in particular the Eucharist, are the primary way to merit sanctifying grace. So the infant would not be meriting grace at baptism but would be meriting grace once she is old enough to take the Eucharist and live a virtuous life.
The Baptist position (I’ll stop saying protestant) is that all grace is a free gift accepted by faith. There is no difference between initial grace and sanctifying grace and that sanctification and a virtuous life is a response to having received grace and the corresponding adoption, being made a new creation, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit that results from accepting the gift of grace by placing faith in Christ.
Like I said, it is a subtle difference. Both a devout Catholic and a devout Baptist will seek to serve Christ and live a virtuous life. The difference is a Catholic will do so in order to merit sanctifying grace and the Baptist will do so because they have been changed, by the grace of God, through faith in Christ.
If I am wrong about Catholic teaching then I apologize. I have been reading about Catholic theology and what I have described seems consistent to what I’ve read and been told by others on this forum.
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lanman87
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As I said, this is a disagreement between Baptist and Catholics.
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PRmerger
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How can a Christian sin if he is in God’s grace?
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James248
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James248 said:
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Clevus
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From NewAdvent/Faith
And at the risk of repetition we must again draw attention to the distinction between faith as a purely intellectual habit, which as such is dry and barren, and faith resident, indeed, in the intellect, but motived by charity or love of God, Who is our beginning, our ultimate end, and our supernatural reward. “Every true motion of the will”, says St. Augustine, “proceeds from true love” (de Civ. Dei, XIV, ix), and, as he elsewhere beautifully expresses it, “Quid est ergo credere in Eum? Credendo amare, credendo diligere, credendo in Eum ire, et Ejus membris incorporari. Ipsa est ergo fides quam de nobis Deus exigit—et non invenit quod exigat, nisi donaverit quod invenerit.” (Tract. xxix in Joannem, 6. — “What, then, is to believe in God? — It is to love Him by believing, to go to Him by believing, and to be incorporated in His members. This, then, is the faith which God demands of us; and He finds not what He may demand except where He has given what He may find.”) This then is what is meant by “living” faith, or as theologians term it, fides formata, viz., “informed” by charity, or love of God. If we regard faith precisely as an assent elicited by the intellect, then this bare faith is the same habit numerically as when the informing principle of charity is added to it, but it has not the true character of a moral virtue and is not a source of merit. If, then, charity be dead — if, in other words, a man be in mortal sin and so without the habitual sanctifying grace of God which alone gives to his will that due tendency to God as his supernatural end which is requisite for supernatural and meritorious acts — it is evident that there is no longer in the will that power by which it can, from supernatural motives, move the intellect to assent to supernatural truths. The intellectual and Divinely infused habit of faith remains, however, and when charity returns this habit acquires anew the character of “living” and meritorious faith.
“Living” and returned from “death”, or refusal to be moved through expression of charity that his belief demands of him. The grace of Faith and the grace of charity combine in the members shared with God to do good works, or Faith truly expressed.
True faith is proven by our Kingdom works.
We no longer are tested in heaven, has those there are beatified and cannot do other than do God’s work with complete joy. Faith has already matured at this point.
And at the risk of repetition we must again draw attention to the distinction between faith as a purely intellectual habit, which as such is dry and barren, and faith resident, indeed, in the intellect, but motived by charity or love of God, Who is our beginning, our ultimate end, and our supernatural reward. “Every true motion of the will”, says St. Augustine, “proceeds from true love” (de Civ. Dei, XIV, ix), and, as he elsewhere beautifully expresses it, “Quid est ergo credere in Eum? Credendo amare, credendo diligere, credendo in Eum ire, et Ejus membris incorporari. Ipsa est ergo fides quam de nobis Deus exigit—et non invenit quod exigat, nisi donaverit quod invenerit.” (Tract. xxix in Joannem, 6. — “What, then, is to believe in God? — It is to love Him by believing, to go to Him by believing, and to be incorporated in His members. This, then, is the faith which God demands of us; and He finds not what He may demand except where He has given what He may find.”) This then is what is meant by “living” faith, or as theologians term it, fides formata, viz., “informed” by charity, or love of God. If we regard faith precisely as an assent elicited by the intellect, then this bare faith is the same habit numerically as when the informing principle of charity is added to it, but it has not the true character of a moral virtue and is not a source of merit. If, then, charity be dead — if, in other words, a man be in mortal sin and so without the habitual sanctifying grace of God which alone gives to his will that due tendency to God as his supernatural end which is requisite for supernatural and meritorious acts — it is evident that there is no longer in the will that power by which it can, from supernatural motives, move the intellect to assent to supernatural truths. The intellectual and Divinely infused habit of faith remains, however, and when charity returns this habit acquires anew the character of “living” and meritorious faith.
“Living” and returned from “death”, or refusal to be moved through expression of charity that his belief demands of him. The grace of Faith and the grace of charity combine in the members shared with God to do good works, or Faith truly expressed.
True faith is proven by our Kingdom works.
We no longer are tested in heaven, has those there are beatified and cannot do other than do God’s work with complete joy. Faith has already matured at this point.
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James248
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I did a post on Abraham. Did you read it?
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lanman87
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yes
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James248
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And your response?
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lanman87
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To be determined.
I’m in the process of learning how and when those things began to be taught and practiced within the church. If they were taught by and practiced by the Apostles then I have no problem with them. If they somehow got introduced at a later date and are not clearly defined in scripture then I’m inclined to be skeptical.
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PRmerger
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They were indeed taught and practiced by the Apostles.To be determined.
I’m in the process of learning how and when those things began to be taught and practiced within the church. If they were taught by and practiced by the Apostles then I have no problem with them. If they somehow got introduced at a later date and are not clearly defined in scripture then I’m inclined to be skeptical.
We know this through Sacred Tradition.
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