J
James248
Guest
In order to understand the Real Presence, one must have faith. To one who believes, no explanation is necessary. To one that doesn’t, no explanation is possible.
And last time I checked, God transcends reason,
- Status
And last time I checked, God transcends reason,
T
tgGodsway
Guest
lanman87. … What you said here is the gospel truth, unfettered by weight of defiled religion. I could not say it any better!
C
Cathoholic
Guest
lanman87:
Both - A result of our salvation (from grace) and a contribution to our ongoing salvation (likewise from grace but this time with your cooperation).
The Bible talks about BOTH. Why not just affirm ALL the verses?
(I just don’t understand the apparent need to pick and choose one Scripture verse over the other, when with some effort, harmony of BOTH types of verses can be held to.)
Because if you DO need to hold fast to faith, then you are “contributing” to salvation too.
I agree Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, but you must ALSO hold to the verses where WE are told to BELIEVE too.
Faith has a human aspect AND a DIVINE dimension.
Why not affirm BOTH lanman87?
Both - A result of our salvation (from grace) and a contribution to our ongoing salvation (likewise from grace but this time with your cooperation).
The Bible talks about BOTH. Why not just affirm ALL the verses?
(I just don’t understand the apparent need to pick and choose one Scripture verse over the other, when with some effort, harmony of BOTH types of verses can be held to.)
Do you not need to hold to “faith” either?
Because if you DO need to hold fast to faith, then you are “contributing” to salvation too.
I agree Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, but you must ALSO hold to the verses where WE are told to BELIEVE too.
Faith has a human aspect AND a DIVINE dimension.
Also . . . .
C
Cathoholic
Guest
tgGodsway:
Why not affirm Christ is “at WORK IN you” as Scripture explicitly states? (This IS a GRACE. You don’t need to be afraid of this.)
And why not affirm the NECESSITY of Christ WORKING in and through you (this is called a “grace”)?
WHY NOT just believe those verses too?
Why ignore other things St. Paul says about . . . .
faith WORKING in love,
or charity being more important than faith,
or our being saved by belief AND sanctification,
or it is the DOERS of the law who will be justified,
or we MUST suffer WITH Jesus in order to be glorified with Him (I guarantee that if St. Paul had said we must have faith in order to be glorified with Christ in Romans 8:17, we’d be hearing about how that really teaches justification by faith ALONE),
or the fact that we need to WORK out our salvation (with God at work IN US of course),
or failure to WORK WITH Christ can result in receiving grace in vain,
or what counts is “keeping the commandments of God”,
or the fact that we were saved by “hope”,
or “faith” being used in the context of **OBEDIENCE **of faith,
or failure to provide for your family can make you worse than an unbeliever,
or that in Christ you can reap to Eternal Life,
or that woman will be saved through bearing children, IF she continues in faith and love and holiness (this would be pointless to add the need to love and strive for holiness if St. Paul thought we were justified by faith ALONE),
or taking heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so DOING you will save both yourself and your hearers.
or to do good, to be rich in good deeds, . . . . so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed,
or continuing in the teaching which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain,
or as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,
. . . . etc., etc. etc.
WHY not affirm a ALL of the Gospel instead of merely part of it?
**
Why say something St. Paul never says about justification (pretending we are justified by faith ALONE in a broad context)?
Why ignore other things St. Paul says about justification (see above)?
Why say something that flatly CONTRADICTS St. James (you are NOT justified by faith ALONE)?**
Why not affirm Christ is “at WORK IN you” as Scripture explicitly states? (This IS a GRACE. You don’t need to be afraid of this.)
And why not affirm the NECESSITY of Christ WORKING in and through you (this is called a “grace”)?
WHY NOT just believe those verses too?
Why ignore other things St. Paul says about . . . .
faith WORKING in love,
or charity being more important than faith,
or our being saved by belief AND sanctification,
or it is the DOERS of the law who will be justified,
or we MUST suffer WITH Jesus in order to be glorified with Him (I guarantee that if St. Paul had said we must have faith in order to be glorified with Christ in Romans 8:17, we’d be hearing about how that really teaches justification by faith ALONE),
or the fact that we need to WORK out our salvation (with God at work IN US of course),
or failure to WORK WITH Christ can result in receiving grace in vain,
or what counts is “keeping the commandments of God”,
or the fact that we were saved by “hope”,
or “faith” being used in the context of **OBEDIENCE **of faith,
or failure to provide for your family can make you worse than an unbeliever,
or that in Christ you can reap to Eternal Life,
or that woman will be saved through bearing children, IF she continues in faith and love and holiness (this would be pointless to add the need to love and strive for holiness if St. Paul thought we were justified by faith ALONE),
or taking heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so DOING you will save both yourself and your hearers.
or to do good, to be rich in good deeds, . . . . so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed,
or continuing in the teaching which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain,
or as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,
. . . . etc., etc. etc.
WHY not affirm a ALL of the Gospel instead of merely part of it?
**
Why say something St. Paul never says about justification (pretending we are justified by faith ALONE in a broad context)?
Why ignore other things St. Paul says about justification (see above)?
Why say something that flatly CONTRADICTS St. James (you are NOT justified by faith ALONE)?**
R
rcwitness
Guest
Let me ask you this…
Are works done through faith our works or God’s?
I think you are concerned about Merit, right? Here is the Catechism’s Teaching about Merit:
MERIT
You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006The term “merit” refers in general to therecompense owed*by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.
2007*With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact thatGod has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61"Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. ..*. Our merits are God’s gifts.**"62
2010Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace,no one can merit the initial graceof forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity,we can then meritfor ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
S
seanman611
Guest
Thank you for sharing this quote with me. I will look more into this distinction.
T
tgGodsway
Guest
T
tgGodsway
Guest
When we study the word “salvation” or “saved,” it is interesting to know how the word is used. Many people use it in a knee jerk reaction. In other words, for them salvation in any context is all about salvation from hell unto heaven. But with a little work reading the pre-context, and con-text, and the overall theme of any given book, you will learn that salvation is used both eternally and temporally.
blessings.
blessings.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
tgGodsway:
JAMES 2:14, 24 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? . . . 24 You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
The answer of course to this rhetorical question is NO! This guys “faith” cannot SAVE him.
Why?
Because he refuses to WORK with that faith that’s WHY.
You have to invent “saving” this guy from not “impressing” other people (and call this “justification before men”—an invented term in this context to prop up an invented doctrine–justification by faith ALONE).
James goes on in this same vein eventually telling us that if we can bring people to truth we can save our soul (something else tgGodsway would deny. This of course could only be done united to the GRACE of Christ).
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This stuff causes the justification by faith ALONE mindset to go “tilt”.
But the faithful Catholic happily affirms these verses (and ALL the verses).
TgGodsway isn’t going to be able to believe this passage without doing more violence to the text.
I want to challenge others reading this thread to go back and read James and re-read it in context.
TgGodsway is inventing this “justification” in the context of “saving” and “faith” to mean mere examples before men only.
There is not a shred of evidence to this theological invention of tgGodsway.
TgGodsway HAS to do this if TgGodsway is going to hold to the folk-religion of justification by faith ALONE.
Justification by faith ALONE is not taught ANYWHERE in Scripture.
TgGodsway is going to HAVE to keep ADDING the word “ALONE” to many texts when its not there.
TgGodsway is going to have to replace words with “faith” when it’s not there. (So much for all that “belief”)
Eat my flesh and drink by blood morphs into “believe”.
WORK out your salvation morphs into “believe”.
Confess with your lips AND believe in your heart morphs into believe in your heart ALONE.
Charity being more important than faith, morphs into faith being more important than charity because we are justified by faith ALONE.
And the subtle Scripture denials go on and on and on.
What YOU don’t want to be true is that God WORKS in you and through you.
And that this WORKING IS a GRACE (a NECESSARY grace that you are free to reject).
There is COOPERATION too—with GRACE.
And St. Paul warns you (in 2nd Corinthians 6:1) if you refuse to cooperate with this grace and WORK together with Him, you can accept grace (notice he is addressing people who have “accepted grace”) IN VAIN!
You don’t want it to be true because it forces accountability upon YOU and you also refuse to assert the glory of being a son or daughter of God.
This isn’t pride. It is truth. We can’t take any credit for this in the full sense.
But you make that objection up and put it in the mouth of the Catholic because it makes your denials of St. Paul more palatable so you can hold fast to the tradition of men of justification by faith ALONE.
**That’s WHY you HAVE to keep mixing up people working APART from grace with people who are working IN GRACE.
That’s WHY you HAVE to keep mixing up people in the Old Covenant dispensation of mere WORKING in “law” (such as circumcision) APART with people who are working IN GRACE too.**
And you refuse to acknowledge the NECESSITY of WORKING in grace.
You pay lip service to it (such as with “suffering” and the “importance” of works).
But when I try to pin you down on these things you DENY the NECESSITY of them—something that flatly contradicts St. Paul (as well as St. James).
So in Matthew 25 when Jesus gives us the parable of the sheep and goats you are forced to do violence to the text and pretend when Jesus says you didn’t feed me (Matthew 25 is the text that St. James is probably referring to in James 2 by the way) or clothe me so off to where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25 becomes for you . . .
“You didn’t have faith in me, and you didn’t have faith in me, and you didn’t have faith in me.”
Instead of just asserting what Jesus said (something you do the exact same thing with James too–do violence to the texts).
Then you post up here about how the natural man can’t understand such things but the spiritual man CAN (inferring that YOU are the “spiritual man” and anybody else is . . . . as long as . . . . as long as they agree with you).
You are making much of this up tgGodsway.
This is a partial truth. It concerns being “SAVED”—St. James says so contextually with the rhetorical question concerning “faith alone”.
JAMES 2:14, 24 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? . . . 24 You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
The answer of course to this rhetorical question is NO! This guys “faith” cannot SAVE him.
Why?
Because he refuses to WORK with that faith that’s WHY.
You have to invent “saving” this guy from not “impressing” other people (and call this “justification before men”—an invented term in this context to prop up an invented doctrine–justification by faith ALONE).
James goes on in this same vein eventually telling us that if we can bring people to truth we can save our soul (something else tgGodsway would deny. This of course could only be done united to the GRACE of Christ).
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This stuff causes the justification by faith ALONE mindset to go “tilt”.
But the faithful Catholic happily affirms these verses (and ALL the verses).
TgGodsway isn’t going to be able to believe this passage without doing more violence to the text.
I want to challenge others reading this thread to go back and read James and re-read it in context.
TgGodsway is inventing this “justification” in the context of “saving” and “faith” to mean mere examples before men only.
There is not a shred of evidence to this theological invention of tgGodsway.
TgGodsway HAS to do this if TgGodsway is going to hold to the folk-religion of justification by faith ALONE.
Justification by faith ALONE is not taught ANYWHERE in Scripture.
TgGodsway is going to HAVE to keep ADDING the word “ALONE” to many texts when its not there.
TgGodsway is going to have to replace words with “faith” when it’s not there. (So much for all that “belief”)
Eat my flesh and drink by blood morphs into “believe”.
WORK out your salvation morphs into “believe”.
Confess with your lips AND believe in your heart morphs into believe in your heart ALONE.
Charity being more important than faith, morphs into faith being more important than charity because we are justified by faith ALONE.
And the subtle Scripture denials go on and on and on.
No TgGodsway.
What YOU don’t want to be true is that God WORKS in you and through you.
And that this WORKING IS a GRACE (a NECESSARY grace that you are free to reject).
There is COOPERATION too—with GRACE.
And St. Paul warns you (in 2nd Corinthians 6:1) if you refuse to cooperate with this grace and WORK together with Him, you can accept grace (notice he is addressing people who have “accepted grace”) IN VAIN!
You don’t want it to be true because it forces accountability upon YOU and you also refuse to assert the glory of being a son or daughter of God.
This isn’t pride. It is truth. We can’t take any credit for this in the full sense.
But you make that objection up and put it in the mouth of the Catholic because it makes your denials of St. Paul more palatable so you can hold fast to the tradition of men of justification by faith ALONE.
**That’s WHY you HAVE to keep mixing up people working APART from grace with people who are working IN GRACE.
That’s WHY you HAVE to keep mixing up people in the Old Covenant dispensation of mere WORKING in “law” (such as circumcision) APART with people who are working IN GRACE too.**
And you refuse to acknowledge the NECESSITY of WORKING in grace.
You pay lip service to it (such as with “suffering” and the “importance” of works).
But when I try to pin you down on these things you DENY the NECESSITY of them—something that flatly contradicts St. Paul (as well as St. James).
So in Matthew 25 when Jesus gives us the parable of the sheep and goats you are forced to do violence to the text and pretend when Jesus says you didn’t feed me (Matthew 25 is the text that St. James is probably referring to in James 2 by the way) or clothe me so off to where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25 becomes for you . . .
“You didn’t have faith in me, and you didn’t have faith in me, and you didn’t have faith in me.”
Instead of just asserting what Jesus said (something you do the exact same thing with James too–do violence to the texts).
Then you post up here about how the natural man can’t understand such things but the spiritual man CAN (inferring that YOU are the “spiritual man” and anybody else is . . . . as long as . . . . as long as they agree with you).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
tgGodsway:
TgGodsway refuses to believe the verses about after you receive that free gift, then MUCH is REQUIRED (with even MORE GIFTS of GRACE of course–These WORKING graces are too a free gift. A free gift that tgGodsway will refuse to acknowledge in their full context).
(Those MORE graces is what tgGodsway subtly denies)
TgGodsway refuses to believe that he didn’t EARN his faith either (but correctly admits that “faith” is NECESSARY for salvation).
WHY do you need “Faith” tgGodsway? I thought salvation was a free gift and all of that??
(It IS a free gift but tgGodsway misrepresents the fullness regarding this)
TgGodsway:
But tgGodsway’s ministers tell him something different (just like my old Baptist ministers did).
They tell them that works are “necessary” for receiving “crowns”. (That is almost certainly what tgGodsway is alluding to here and is a partial truth).
The NEED for works to the sola fide mindset is NOT for attaining via cooperation unto eternal life.
tgGodsway (with emphasis mine) . . .
Don’t you think Jesus got the job done on Calvary?
WHY TgGodsway do you admit there are ANY “REQUIREMENTS”??
(Could it be possible that there are other “requirements” too? And likewise those “requirements” don’t infringe upon God’s place in justification either?)
Hold his feet to the fire.
Keep asking where the “ONLY” is.
Don’t worry. It isn’t ANYWHERE in Scripture. There won’t be any surprise verses. Sola fide is a tradition of men and not a Biblical doctrine so you don’t have to worry about anyone being able to pull out a verse with the “ONLY” in it concerning “justification” (and they will almost always avoid James 2 unless you bring it up).
Sola fide folks will SAY “ONLY” (just like tgGodsway just did in the quote).
opcorn:.
This is another spoof from sola fide folks.
That’s WHY sometimes you will see signs in end zones being held up that say John 3:16. But don’t be intimidated by that. John 3:16 does not teach justification by faith ALONE. Nor does any other passage in John or anywhere else in Scripture.
Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.
That’s right. It IS a free gift (but it’s not a cheap gift).
TgGodsway refuses to believe the verses about after you receive that free gift, then MUCH is REQUIRED (with even MORE GIFTS of GRACE of course–These WORKING graces are too a free gift. A free gift that tgGodsway will refuse to acknowledge in their full context).
(Those MORE graces is what tgGodsway subtly denies)
TgGodsway refuses to believe that he didn’t EARN his faith either (but correctly admits that “faith” is NECESSARY for salvation).
WHY do you need “Faith” tgGodsway? I thought salvation was a free gift and all of that??
(It IS a free gift but tgGodsway misrepresents the fullness regarding this)
TgGodsway:
If you mean the inheritance of eternal life I’d be OK with that.
But tgGodsway’s ministers tell him something different (just like my old Baptist ministers did).
They tell them that works are “necessary” for receiving “crowns”. (That is almost certainly what tgGodsway is alluding to here and is a partial truth).
The NEED for works to the sola fide mindset is NOT for attaining via cooperation unto eternal life.
tgGodsway (with emphasis mine) . . .
WHY? WHY are there ANY “REQUIREMENTS”?
Don’t you think Jesus got the job done on Calvary?
WHY TgGodsway do you admit there are ANY “REQUIREMENTS”??
(Could it be possible that there are other “requirements” too? And likewise those “requirements” don’t infringe upon God’s place in justification either?)
I want to challenge readers here to go back and keep asking tgGodsway where the verse is that says “ONLY” to believe?
Hold his feet to the fire.
Keep asking where the “ONLY” is.
Don’t worry. It isn’t ANYWHERE in Scripture. There won’t be any surprise verses. Sola fide is a tradition of men and not a Biblical doctrine so you don’t have to worry about anyone being able to pull out a verse with the “ONLY” in it concerning “justification” (and they will almost always avoid James 2 unless you bring it up).
Sola fide folks will SAY “ONLY” (just like tgGodsway just did in the quote).
But the word “ONLY” or “ALONE” is ADDED to Scripture (in their mind).
You show me where St. John uses the word “ONLY” in regards to faith saving you tgGodsway
opcorn:.This is another spoof from sola fide folks.
That’s WHY sometimes you will see signs in end zones being held up that say John 3:16. But don’t be intimidated by that. John 3:16 does not teach justification by faith ALONE. Nor does any other passage in John or anywhere else in Scripture.
Justification by faith ALONE is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.
S
spina1953
Guest
This “Only Believe” and you are justified and saved does not make any sense. its like saying I can go out and murder and commit sins day and night but sense I only have to believe I am therefore saved and justified. At least that is how it sounds to me. This only have faith and you are saved sounds to me one does not need to do anything because one only needs faith in order to be saved.
Some point to Abraham that he was justified by faith alone. its true Abraham when prompted by God to believe in Him as one God only and left to go to where God wanted him to go he did, but was that not a test and also when the time came and God asked Abraham to offer his son to God Abraham started to act on what God asked of him even though it was his only son and when God saw that Abraham was going to, did not Abraham past the test?
What I see about the story of Abraham is that while he did have faith that faith in a sense he had to prove it by action otherwise what good would it been just to say I have faith God but I am not going to offer my only son to you because all I needed is to have faith and I do not need to do anything to show I have faith
James in his Epistle speaks of the faith of Abraham showing that Abraham’s faith was not empty words but his faith was proven by his actions not just words alone. James had the problem that Jerusalem Pharisees were going around teaching and preaching that one did not need to do anything no good works or deeds in order to be saved, one only needed faith nothing more. This is what James spoke against, its not enough just to say one has faith if one is not going to do anything with it it becomes a dead faith. To me anyone can say I have faith but if they do nothing with it then its nothing more then words without meaning.
Some point to Abraham that he was justified by faith alone. its true Abraham when prompted by God to believe in Him as one God only and left to go to where God wanted him to go he did, but was that not a test and also when the time came and God asked Abraham to offer his son to God Abraham started to act on what God asked of him even though it was his only son and when God saw that Abraham was going to, did not Abraham past the test?
What I see about the story of Abraham is that while he did have faith that faith in a sense he had to prove it by action otherwise what good would it been just to say I have faith God but I am not going to offer my only son to you because all I needed is to have faith and I do not need to do anything to show I have faith
James in his Epistle speaks of the faith of Abraham showing that Abraham’s faith was not empty words but his faith was proven by his actions not just words alone. James had the problem that Jerusalem Pharisees were going around teaching and preaching that one did not need to do anything no good works or deeds in order to be saved, one only needed faith nothing more. This is what James spoke against, its not enough just to say one has faith if one is not going to do anything with it it becomes a dead faith. To me anyone can say I have faith but if they do nothing with it then its nothing more then words without meaning.
L
lanman87
Guest
Believing and faith aren’t the same thing. Belief is part of faith, a huge part. But faith is not just an intellectual understanding of who Christ is and is not just an emotional response where you proclaim your belief.
When I say someone is saved by faith alone then I’m saying that God changed them. They are not the same person. Their inmost being has been changed. And because their inmost being (heart if you will) has been changed then their life and actions are being changed as well. So if someone says they believe then go out and commit murder and continues is sin without any sorrow or contrition then they are liars.
1 John 2: 4 says "Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
and 1 John 3:9 says "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus judges two sets of people who refer to Him as “Lord”.
Jesus discusses in this passage how they lived their life concerning . . . . visiting the downtrodden (the sick and imprisoned) and feeding the hungry, clothing the naked.
Jesus discusses
We will see St. James discuss two sets of people too (Just like Jesus did).
St. James discusses visiting the downtrodden (in this case, widows and orphans). St. James also goes on to discuss . . . (surprise) . . . . feeding the hungry and clothing the naked!
St. James discusses
Jesus in Matthew 25 judges two sets of people who refer to Him as “Lord”.
Jesus discusses their response in life concerning feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the downtrodden (the stranger and sojourner, and the sick and imprisoned).
Jesus does NOT discuss their “justification before men”. Jesus is JUDGING them based upon their WORKS. And its much more than a matter of “crowns” going on here.
Let’s look at what our Lord Jesus says . . . . .
Matthew 25:31-46 (with some format changes by me) . . . . .
MATTHEW 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand,
**'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; **
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me,
naked and you did not clothe me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer,
LORD, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46 And **they will go away into eternal punishment, **
but the righteous into eternal life."
(So much for mere “crowns”. There are “crowns” involved, but not merely “crowns”)
Jesus discusses in this passage how they lived their life concerning . . . . visiting the downtrodden (the sick and imprisoned) and feeding the hungry, clothing the naked.
Jesus discusses
- Visiting the downtrodden
- Feeding the hungry
- Clothing the naked
We will see St. James discuss two sets of people too (Just like Jesus did).
St. James discusses visiting the downtrodden (in this case, widows and orphans). St. James also goes on to discuss . . . (surprise) . . . . feeding the hungry and clothing the naked!
St. James discusses
- Visiting the downtrodden
- Feeding the hungry
- Clothing the naked
Jesus in Matthew 25 judges two sets of people who refer to Him as “Lord”.
Jesus discusses their response in life concerning feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the downtrodden (the stranger and sojourner, and the sick and imprisoned).
Jesus does NOT discuss their “justification before men”. Jesus is JUDGING them based upon their WORKS. And its much more than a matter of “crowns” going on here.
Let’s look at what our Lord Jesus says . . . . .
Matthew 25:31-46 (with some format changes by me) . . . . .
MATTHEW 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand,
**'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; **
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me,
naked and you did not clothe me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer,
LORD, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46 And **they will go away into eternal punishment, **
but the righteous into eternal life."
(So much for mere “crowns”. There are “crowns” involved, but not merely “crowns”)
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Now let’s look at St. James. He is not directly quoting Jesus, but I would suggest he is echoing much of this very teaching of Jesus that we just saw in Matthew 25.
James is going to talk about “holding the faith”. St. Paul does this too in Romans (St. Paul calls it the “obedience of faith”).
And St. James (just as we have seen St. Paul tell us too), discusses the NEED to “persevere” in these WORKS.
JAMES 1:23-25, 27, 2:1, 8, 12, 15-18, 21-26 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer,
he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law,
the law of liberty,
AND perseveres,
being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this:
to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
1 My brethren, show no partiality as you
hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
8 If you really fulfil the royal law,
according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under
the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy;
yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?
**Can his faith save him? **
15 If a brother or sister is **ill-clad **
and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,”
without giving them the things needed for the body,
what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well.
. . . 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works . . .
24 **You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith ALONE. **
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
so faith apart from works is dead.
Jesus discussed
James is going to talk about “holding the faith”. St. Paul does this too in Romans (St. Paul calls it the “obedience of faith”).
And St. James (just as we have seen St. Paul tell us too), discusses the NEED to “persevere” in these WORKS.
JAMES 1:23-25, 27, 2:1, 8, 12, 15-18, 21-26 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer,
he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law,
the law of liberty,
AND perseveres,
being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this:
to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
1 My brethren, show no partiality as you
hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
8 If you really fulfil the royal law,
according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under
the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy;
yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?
**Can his faith save him? **
15 If a brother or sister is **ill-clad **
and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,”
without giving them the things needed for the body,
what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well.
. . . 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works . . .
24 **You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith ALONE. **
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
so faith apart from works is dead.
Jesus discussed
- Visiting the downtrodden
- Feeding the hungry
- Clothing the naked
- Visiting the downtrodden
- Feeding the hungry
- Clothing the naked
C
Cathoholic
Guest
lanman87:
Unfortunately if you tell your minister a saved person’s “inmost being has been changed” she will tell you that you are merely “covered” by the righteousness of Christ.
You also said . . . .
But people are free to reject these graces (and they sometimes do reject them–even definitively).
These people CAN lose their gift of faith.
St. Paul in his letters to Timothy makes just this warning.
And if you DO throw away your faith and not repent, are you saved anyway? No! Sacred Scripture (and the CCC 161) says:
HEBREWS 11:6a 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, . . .
AND . . . . Some of these people KEEP their faith . . . . but choose to throw away their charity (even while keeping their faith!).
This results in a real “faith”, but it is now a “dead faith” as St. James warns in James 2:17.
The Council of Trent gives us the same admonition.
COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XXVIII If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian; let him be anathema.
thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
Also from Trent . . .
That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith.
COUNCIL OF TRENT In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.
thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
St. Paul gives the same warning in 1st Corinthians 13 about people who have “FAITH” to move mountains but have not “charity”.
That’s a LOT of faith.
And we know it is NOT a false faith because St. Paul warns that they need to ABIDE in it (“abide these three—faith, hope, and charity).
Jesus gives us the same warning implicitly in Matthew 25 talking to people who refer to Jesus as their “LORD” yet refused to “work”. They ended up condemning themselves.
Jesus warns about this too in Matthew 7:21 when He says . . . .
MATTHEW 7:19-21 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down
and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who **DOES THE WILL **of my Father who is in heaven.
lanman87. You are not far from the kingdom. You are so close. Keep up the great work, study, and prayer (and pray for me too please).
And I will pray for you too lanman87.
We are over 1000 posts here and I sense this thread will soon come to an end (so I wanted to ask you to pray for me here lanman87).
This is so good lanman87.
Unfortunately if you tell your minister a saved person’s “inmost being has been changed” she will tell you that you are merely “covered” by the righteousness of Christ.
You also said . . . .
And this is correct too. The Holy Spirit now prompts them, and works in and through them.
But people are free to reject these graces (and they sometimes do reject them–even definitively).
These people CAN lose their gift of faith.
St. Paul in his letters to Timothy makes just this warning.
- Some have “wandered away (from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith)” (1st Timothy 1:6)
- Some have “shipwrecked their faith” (1st Timothy 1:19)
- Some “abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” (1st Timothy 4:1)
- Some have “denied the faith” (1st Timothy 5:8)
- Some have “wandered from the faith” (1st Timothy 6:21)
- Some have “wandered away from the truth” (2nd Timothy 2:18)
And if you DO throw away your faith and not repent, are you saved anyway? No! Sacred Scripture (and the CCC 161) says:
HEBREWS 11:6a 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, . . .
AND . . . . Some of these people KEEP their faith . . . . but choose to throw away their charity (even while keeping their faith!).
This results in a real “faith”, but it is now a “dead faith” as St. James warns in James 2:17.
The Council of Trent gives us the same admonition.
COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XXVIII If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian; let him be anathema.
thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
Also from Trent . . .
That, by every mortal sin, grace is lost, but not faith.
COUNCIL OF TRENT In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost; thus defending the doctrine of the divine law, which excludes from the kingdom of God not only the unbelieving, but the faithful also (who are) fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of divine grace, they can refrain, and on account of which they are separated from the grace of Christ.
thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
St. Paul gives the same warning in 1st Corinthians 13 about people who have “FAITH” to move mountains but have not “charity”.
That’s a LOT of faith.
And we know it is NOT a false faith because St. Paul warns that they need to ABIDE in it (“abide these three—faith, hope, and charity).
Jesus gives us the same warning implicitly in Matthew 25 talking to people who refer to Jesus as their “LORD” yet refused to “work”. They ended up condemning themselves.
Jesus warns about this too in Matthew 7:21 when He says . . . .
MATTHEW 7:19-21 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down
and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who **DOES THE WILL **of my Father who is in heaven.
lanman87. You are not far from the kingdom. You are so close. Keep up the great work, study, and prayer (and pray for me too please).
And I will pray for you too lanman87.
We are over 1000 posts here and I sense this thread will soon come to an end (so I wanted to ask you to pray for me here lanman87).
L
lanman87
Guest
Because the harmony in the Bible is that when we place faith in Christ the Holy Spirit changes us into a new creation. All our cooperation, our obedience, our pursuit of righteousness are a result of us being born of the Spirit. Our works do not earn us grace. Our works are a result of us living in the grace and Spirit we have been freely given and are continuing to be freely given as adopted Children of God. To say that our works earn grace or eternal life makes grace and eternal life no longer free. If something is free it can’t be earned and if it is earned it can’t be free.
Our works and service and obedience are evidence that we have truly been born of the Spirit, that we know Christ and the power of His resurrection, and the the Love of God is in our Hearts. In other words, our works (external actions) shows our faith (which is internal)
I agree that faith has a human aspect and a divine aspect. But I’ve learned that the divine aspect is way bigger and way more powerful that I ever imagined. When the Holy Spirit convicts someone of the fact that they are sinners and separated from God and as a result they “Call on the Name of the Lord”. God begins a work in them, fills them with the Holy Spirit, adopts them, seals them unto the day of redemption, and begins molding them into His image and makes them a new creation and gives them the free gift of eternal life. As a result they begin to seek more and more after God and the fruit of the Spirit becomes more and more evident in their lives.
L
lanman87
Guest
Thank you for your prayers.
You may not agree, but I am in the Kingdom. I placed my total faith in Christ and He is working in me and my life.
I will also be praying for you.
And yes, my guess is this thread will be closed soon. Everyone keep saying the same things over and over again.
J
James248
Guest
So I would agree faith alone saves if faith means accepting Christ as your Savior and obeying all that He teaches. Apparently that’s not the definition I’m seeing from tggodsway.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
lanman87:
Then we were made a “new creation” when we were “born again” or “born anew” or “born from above” and saved.
Belief is certainly associated with that. Faith is ALWAYS associated with that as a matter of fact.
But we are made a “new creation” when we are born of “water and the Spirit” as Jesus says.
Neither does our faith “earn us grace”. OK?
Yet faith is still necessary. Likewise (eventually) works (for those who CAN work).
I don’t know how many times I will have to differentiate works done in grace vrs works in the flesh but I will continue to make this distinction.
Your works cannot earn grace only if you imagine your works on your own are the same as works done in the Spirit.
Think about it lanman87.
GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Reading this would you say . . .
a. Works sown in the Spirit can reap eternal life?
or
b. Works sown in the Spirit cannot reap eternal life?
NOT GALATIANS 6:7-8 but a phantom verse 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, well his “works do NOT earn us grace”. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit NOT reap eternal life because then even in the GRACE of the Spirit, this would no longer be grace. That comes from faith ALONE.
lanman87.
What if a guy has “faith to move mountains” but refuses to “work”? Then what? (to see the answer to this see 1st Corinthians 13)
What if a guy is a “son of the Father”? Will his faith FORCE him to remain alive in the Father. Or can he take his inheritance and squander it on “loose living”?
And if he sqanders his inheritance, do you think this son is “alive” or “dead” (for the answer, see Luke 15:24).
What if people who have God as their Father (notice they have a RELATIONSHIP with God as their Father), refuse to forgive their brother (other people or “brothers” who ALSO have a relationship with God)? They could have only got this “relationship;;” with faith right? But if they now REFUSE to “forgive your brother”, then what? Are they saved anyway? Does their LACK of forgiveness “manifest their faith” too? (for the answer to this see Matthew 6:15).
What if a guy is IN Christ? And Christ is IN HIM? But he refuses to “bear fruit”? Then what? Is he saved anyway? Does his “faith” that put him in Christ to begin with (because you cannot get into Christ without faith) FORCE him to do good works? Or can he be cut off from the Vine and get thrown into the fire? (For the answer to this see John 15:6)
What if a guy is a servant of Jesus. And Jesus is his Master? And the Master Jesus “forgives him his debt”? Then what? Will his faith automatically FORCE him to do good works? What if this guy (who was FORGIVEN his debt) decides to REFUSE to forgive the debts of people who owe him? Then what? Is his forgiveness a done deal or is it provisional and can and will be REMOVED? (For the answer to this see Matthew 18:23-35)
What if a guy has Jesus for his Master? And then the Master Jesus puts him in charge of His people? Will his “faith” FORCE him to do good? Remember he has a relationship with Jesus). What if this guy begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and eat and get drunk on his watch? Do you think this is impossible to fall like this because of his faith? What do you think will happen to this guy sans repentance? If he is put with the “unbelievers” (See NIV Luke 12:46) do you think “unbelievers” get to go to Heaven?? (if they remain in their unbelief)? (For the answer see Luke 12:42-48).
If people are meeting together in an assembly of authentic worship, will their faith that brought them here, FORCE them to “hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering” and continue to meet together in worship?
Or CAN they decide to “sin deliberately” in the context of “neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some” (they neglect the Eucharistic Assembly, they decide to blow-off Mass) do you think a “sacrifice for sin remains” for them?
Or do you that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins for them but a fiery judgment for these people who once had confidence to “enter the sanctuary”? (For the answer to this see Hebrews 10:19-29).
If some guy knows the way of righteousness and knows Jesus as his personal “Lord and Savior” (see NIV 2nd Peter 2:20) who was formerly “entangled in the world” do you think his “faith” will force him to remain in the Spirit apart from the world”? Or do you think that this guy who knows Jesus as his personal “Lord and Savior” MAY get entangled in the world again and his second state (Remember. This is a guy who “escaped the defilements of the world” and knew Jesus as “Lord and Savior”) will be WORSE than the first where he didn’t ever know Jesus? (For the answer to this see 2nd Peter 2:19-22)
I thought we were given enough faith to draw . . . . “all men unto myself"–Jesus.
Then we were made a “new creation” when we were “born again” or “born anew” or “born from above” and saved.
Belief is certainly associated with that. Faith is ALWAYS associated with that as a matter of fact.
But we are made a “new creation” when we are born of “water and the Spirit” as Jesus says.
Our works do NOT earn us grace.
Neither does our faith “earn us grace”. OK?
Yet faith is still necessary. Likewise (eventually) works (for those who CAN work).
First of all I am not saying OUR works can earn anything.
I don’t know how many times I will have to differentiate works done in grace vrs works in the flesh but I will continue to make this distinction.
Your works cannot earn grace only if you imagine your works on your own are the same as works done in the Spirit.
Think about it lanman87.
GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Reading this would you say . . .
a. Works sown in the Spirit can reap eternal life?
or
b. Works sown in the Spirit cannot reap eternal life?
NOT GALATIANS 6:7-8 but a phantom verse 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, well his “works do NOT earn us grace”. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit NOT reap eternal life because then even in the GRACE of the Spirit, this would no longer be grace. That comes from faith ALONE.
lanman87.
What if they don’t? Then what?
What if a guy has “faith to move mountains” but refuses to “work”? Then what? (to see the answer to this see 1st Corinthians 13)
What if a guy is a “son of the Father”? Will his faith FORCE him to remain alive in the Father. Or can he take his inheritance and squander it on “loose living”?
And if he sqanders his inheritance, do you think this son is “alive” or “dead” (for the answer, see Luke 15:24).
What if people who have God as their Father (notice they have a RELATIONSHIP with God as their Father), refuse to forgive their brother (other people or “brothers” who ALSO have a relationship with God)? They could have only got this “relationship;;” with faith right? But if they now REFUSE to “forgive your brother”, then what? Are they saved anyway? Does their LACK of forgiveness “manifest their faith” too? (for the answer to this see Matthew 6:15).
What if a guy is IN Christ? And Christ is IN HIM? But he refuses to “bear fruit”? Then what? Is he saved anyway? Does his “faith” that put him in Christ to begin with (because you cannot get into Christ without faith) FORCE him to do good works? Or can he be cut off from the Vine and get thrown into the fire? (For the answer to this see John 15:6)
What if a guy is a servant of Jesus. And Jesus is his Master? And the Master Jesus “forgives him his debt”? Then what? Will his faith automatically FORCE him to do good works? What if this guy (who was FORGIVEN his debt) decides to REFUSE to forgive the debts of people who owe him? Then what? Is his forgiveness a done deal or is it provisional and can and will be REMOVED? (For the answer to this see Matthew 18:23-35)
What if a guy has Jesus for his Master? And then the Master Jesus puts him in charge of His people? Will his “faith” FORCE him to do good? Remember he has a relationship with Jesus). What if this guy begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and eat and get drunk on his watch? Do you think this is impossible to fall like this because of his faith? What do you think will happen to this guy sans repentance? If he is put with the “unbelievers” (See NIV Luke 12:46) do you think “unbelievers” get to go to Heaven?? (if they remain in their unbelief)? (For the answer see Luke 12:42-48).
If people are meeting together in an assembly of authentic worship, will their faith that brought them here, FORCE them to “hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering” and continue to meet together in worship?
Or CAN they decide to “sin deliberately” in the context of “neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some” (they neglect the Eucharistic Assembly, they decide to blow-off Mass) do you think a “sacrifice for sin remains” for them?
Or do you that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins for them but a fiery judgment for these people who once had confidence to “enter the sanctuary”? (For the answer to this see Hebrews 10:19-29).
If some guy knows the way of righteousness and knows Jesus as his personal “Lord and Savior” (see NIV 2nd Peter 2:20) who was formerly “entangled in the world” do you think his “faith” will force him to remain in the Spirit apart from the world”? Or do you think that this guy who knows Jesus as his personal “Lord and Savior” MAY get entangled in the world again and his second state (Remember. This is a guy who “escaped the defilements of the world” and knew Jesus as “Lord and Savior”) will be WORSE than the first where he didn’t ever know Jesus? (For the answer to this see 2nd Peter 2:19-22)
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