Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[steve-b]

Can you commit on this article.

Does James Contradict Paul? | Desiring God

Re: that link

There is only one place in all of scripture where “by faith alone” legitimately appears.
NOT is in front of it.

"You see that a man is justified by works and “not by faith alone”. Jas 2:24

And works spoken of is “good works” NOT “works of law”

Paul and James aren’t disagreeing with each other. The distinction is made between “good works” and “works of law”

Did converts to the Church need to be circumcised and follow the 613 mosaic laws http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm? NO

So the answer to the Judaizers of the day, who wanted circumcision and in extension, works of law, to be the ongoing practice was… NO.

Good works NOT works of law, is the prescription to go along with faith

 

[AugustTherese]

Can you commit on this article.

Does James Contradict Paul? | Desiring God

This is where Piper gravely errs on his commentary:

"Look at Galatians 5:6, a crucial text in seeing Paul and James in harmony with each other. “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.” So when Paul dealt with the abuse of his doctrine of justification by faith alone, he said: It’s not added works like circumcision that will win God’s favor. What then? It is “faith working through love.” Notice very carefully what he says. What counts with God? “Faith.” But what kind of faith? Faith that “works through love.” He does not say that what counts with God is “faith” plus a layer of loving works added to faith. He says that what counts with God is the kind of faith that by its nature produces love. But it is faith that gives us our right standing with God. The love that comes from it only shows that it is, in fact, real living, justifying faith."

Protestant theology frequently ascribes works of love as only mere byproducts of faith and not as working together with faith to justify us. Scripture alone clearly states: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works”. According to Protestant theology, this verse should read: “Was not Abraham our father justified by [faith alone]”.

If Saint James was simply reechoing Saint Paul’s “faith alone” doctrine (according to Piper), then he used the worst possible choice of words and examples in his Epistle.

 

[ajcstr]

It is only because he has no works that we human beings cannot literally see his faith.

Why do human beings need to see faith? Which human beings saw Abraham’s faith when he offered his son?

I have to say, this is one concept (justification before men) that I don’t get at all.

 

[Cathoholic]

By the way . . .

This spoof about “James contradicting Paul” is a Protestant notion–not a Catholic one Ianmam87. At least as it concerns the heresy of sola fide.

Here is Protestantism’s spiritual protégé Martin Luther on this subject (with emphasis and parenthesis added) . . . .

.

Martin Luther – In the first place it (the Epistle of James) is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]. It (again, the Epistle of James) says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac [2:21]; though in Romans 4[:2-22] St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15[:6].

• Luther’s Works, Vol. 35, pages 395 – 396

.

Sola fide proponents often propose one of these anti-James arguments:

James uses the word “justification” to mean something other than “justification”. James teaches “justification before men” and Paul is teaching “justification before God”.

James uses the word “faith” to mean something other than “faith”.

Don’t fall for it.

 

[lanman87]

Which human beings saw Abraham’s faith when he offered his son?

You and I and everyone else who has read Genesis sees the evidence of Abraham’s faith in this passage.

Romans 4 puts it this ways No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also Romans 4:23-24a

 

[lanman87]

James uses the word “justification” to mean something other than “justification”. James teaches “justification before men” and Paul is teaching “justification before God”.

I’ve read two Greek Lexicons for the word used for Justified. Dikaioo

Both give these definitions for Dikaioo

to render righteous or such he ought to be
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo is used in Matthew 11:19 Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds. ESV other translations say Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds_ NASB But wisdom is proved right by her deeds NIV

I say that to say that there is precedent of the use of the word Dikaioo for it to mean “to be shown right” or to “show evidence that one is right”. From what I can tell the Reformed/Protestant/Evangelical position is that Dikaioo in the context of James 2 means to “be shown to be right” "or “to give evidence of righteousness”.

 

[ajcstr]

I will just tell you what I was taught. That faith is surrendering your life to Christ. That is someone truly surrenders their life to Christ then they will be obedient to Christ, they will Love the Lord and Love their neighbor, they will help the poor and the sick and so on.

Ok, so I don’t think any Catholic would disagree with this. I think where the hair is split though, Catholics would be argue that someone can have faith in Christ and a desire to follow him but not be fully surrendered to Christ. This could be because of particular selfish attachments or whatever barrier there is. You would probably see this as a lack of true faith (I would guess) but the concept is the same, the person has not surrendered to Christ. I would lean to say that the person is not living his faith and that’s what I think James is saying.

 

[ajcstr]

You and I and everyone else who has read Genesis sees the evidence of Abraham’s faith in this passage.

And this is what you mean by justification before men? (Talking about Genesis 22 here)

 

[lanman87]

hink where the hair is split though, Catholics would be argue that someone can have faith in Christ and a desire to follow him but not be fully surrendered to Christ.

I think one of the major differences is that Evangelicals doctrine is that, because of our sinful nature, we are at times more faithful to God than at other times in our life. At times we are truly seeking God with all our heart and at other times we are going through the motions. Maybe it is stress or sickness or a life situation or even our on sin that causes these ups and downs. However, the difference is that we (I) believe that even in our moments of weakness that God is faithful to us. He lovingly disciplines us and corrects us as a Loving Father seeks to correct and support a child who is misbehaving. God isn’t a cold taskmaster or vindictive tyrant to His Children.

However, if someone truly has a saving faith then they will respond to the discipline and correction of our Loving Father. If they don’t respond then it is an indication that their faith was not sincere and that they haven’t been made a new creation in Christ.

 

[AugustTherese]

However, if someone truly has a saving faith then they will respond to the discipline and correction of our Loving Father. If they don’t respond then it is an indication that their faith was not sincere and that they haven’t been made a new creation in Christ.

May I ask where in Scripture you get this from?

 

[lanman87]

And this is what you mean by justification before men? (Talking about Genesis 22 here)

The Greek word for Just/Justify/Justification has basically the same meanings as the English word. When it is used by a court or judge it is “To declare someone is just”. “The judge declared that Joe was justified in killing the intruder”. In this case Joe was declare just by a higher authority. What he did was right and correct and lawful.

However it can also be used to present evidence of something. For instance. “Joe justified his stance on gun control with crime statistics.” In this case Joe was using crime statistics to show or prove his stance on gun control.

James 2:24 says You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. …

The position taken by Protestants/Evangelicals is that justified in this context is evidential. In verse 18 it says Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Both works (what we do) and our faith(what we believe and profess to believe) are evidences that we are Children of God. If we profess faith alone, without works, then we don’t have any evidence that our faith is a real saving faith that has brought forth a change in our hearts and life by the work of the Holy Spirit in our life. James is imploring us to not be made right by our works but to “Show you my faith by my works”. The implication in Verse 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? is that there is a faith that cannot save. What kind of faith doesn’t save? An intellectual faith and a dead/useless faith. Those are kinds of faith but they aren’t the kind of faith that changes a person from death to life, from being an enemy of God to becoming a Child of God. So James is saying that if we have a true living(saving) faith then our works are evidence of that faith.

This concept is further affirmed and fleshed out in 1 John. Many places in the book talks about how if we don’t have love and obedience we are liars and not really children of God. But verse 3:10 says

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Practicing righteousness and loving our brother are evidence that we are children of God.

 

[steve-b]

Cathoholic:

James uses the word “justification” to mean something other than “justification”. James teaches “justification before men” and Paul is teaching “justification before God”.

I’ve read two Greek Lexicons for the word used for Justified. Dikaioo

Both give these definitions for Dikaioo

to render righteous or such he ought to be
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo is used in Matthew 11:19 Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds. ESV other translations say Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds_ NASB But wisdom is proved right by her deeds NIV

I say that to say that there is precedent of the use of the word Dikaioo for it to mean “to be shown right” or to “show evidence that one is right”. From what I can tell the Reformed/Protestant/Evangelical position is that Dikaioo in the context of James 2 means to “be shown to be right” "or “to give evidence of righteousness”.

Ianman,

Here is the context in Jas 2 on "faith alone’

Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24 Non-Catholic Religions

Re: that link There is only one place in all of scripture where “by faith alone” legitimately appears. NOT is in front of it. "You see that a man is justified by works and "not by faith alone". Jas 2:24 And works spoken of is “good works” NOT “works of law” Paul and James aren’t disagreeing with each other. The distinction is made between “good works” and “works of law” Did converts to the Church need to be circumcised and follow the 613 mosaic laws http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm? NO So t…

There are “works” as in good works, and there are “works” as in the Mosaic “works of law” being referenced by James who is distinguishing between the 2. James was dealing with Judaizers. They were steeped in the OT Mosaic "law"and The necessity of following all 613 laws by everyone. THAT’s NOT the NT prescription tied to faith being taught by the apostles. It is Faith + good works, Not faith + works of law.

 

[lanman87]

May I ask where in Scripture you get this from?

Proverbs 3:11-12
My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline
or be weary of his reproof,
for the Lord reproves him whom he loves,
as a father the son in whom he delights.

The write of Hebrews comments on those verses:

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:7-11

The idea is that God uses circumstances and even persecution to train/discipline His children. But that if God isn’t training/disciplining someone then they aren’t are legitimate Child of God. The implication is that when God disciplines us he isn’t punishing us just for the sake of punishment. He is using the circumstances to train us in righteousness.

 

[lanman87]

There are “works” as in good works, and there are “works” as in the Mosaic “works of law” being referenced by James who is distinguishing between the 2. James was dealing with Judaizers. They were steeped in the OT Mosaic "law"and The necessity of following all 613 laws by everyone. THAT’s NOT the NT prescription tied to faith being taught by the apostles. It is Faith + good works, Not faith + works of law.

I think you have your Apostles backwards. Paul was referring to the works of the Law and James to good works. If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? James 2:15-16

Dikaioo, in this context, means to give evidence. Our good works and not faith alone gives evidence of our salvation.

Also, the works of the law contained many “good works”. If as Paul said, we aren’t justified by keeping the works of the law then here are some things that don’t justify us.

To honor the old and the wise
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger
Not to cherish hatred in one’s heart
Not to bear a grudge
To love the stranger
To honor father and mother
Not to do wrong in buying or selling
Not to break a vow
Not to testify falsely
To restore that which one took by robbery
To return lost property
Not to slay an innocent person

I would say all those things (and many more) are the proper Christian thing to do. However, doing (or not doing) those things is not what makes us righteous. It is the righteousness of Christ apart from the works of the law (which include those things I listed) that makes us righteous.

 

[ajcstr]

I’m afraid this thread has become… (without the time limit)

 

[lanman87]

I’m afraid this thread has become… (without the time limit)

LOL, I agree. But I must admit this entire thread has been very helpful to me as it has caused me to look the relationship of faith and works in a way that I never have before. Or I guess I should say, deeper than I ever have before.

 

[AugustTherese]

LOL, I agree. But I must admit this entire thread has been very helpful to me as it has caused me to look the relationship of faith and works in a way that I never have before. Or I guess I should say, deeper than I ever have before.

Wonderful! Do not stop. Pray for the Holy Spirit to open your heart and to receive His love and you will be just fine, lanman87.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

There are “works” as in good works, and there are “works” as in the Mosaic “works of law” being referenced by James who is distinguishing between the 2. James was dealing with Judaizers. They were steeped in the OT Mosaic "law"and The necessity of following all 613 laws by everyone. THAT’s NOT the NT prescription tied to faith being taught by the apostles. It is Faith + good works, Not faith + works of law.

I think you have your Apostles backwards. **aul was referring to the works of the Law and James to good works. **If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?_ James 2:15-16

It’s both and. Just before Jas 2:15-16
look at James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

The law James is speaking of is the 613 Mosaic laws

James is the one associated with the Judaizers. The circumcision party, who wanted everyone to obey the necessity of circumcision, and obey the 613 Mosaic laws http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

In the first council (Acts 15) Peter rose and said “why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear”?

That’s about the 613 laws. James then validated Peter.
Ianman:

Dikaioo, in this context, means to give evidence. Our good works and not faith alone gives evidence of our salvation.

Also, the works of the law contained many “good works”. If as Paul said, we aren’t justified by keeping the works of the law then here are some things that don’t justify us.

To honor the old and the wise
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger
Not to cherish hatred in one’s heart
Not to bear a grudge
To love the stranger
To honor father and mother
Not to do wrong in buying or selling
Not to break a vow
Not to testify falsely
To restore that which one took by robbery
To return lost property
Not to slay an innocent person

I would say all those things (and many more) are the proper Christian thing to do. However, doing (or not doing) those things is not what makes us righteous. It is the righteousness of Christ apart from the works of the law (which include those things I listed) that makes us righteous.

The distinction both James and Paul make, has to do with the distinction between good works and works of law.

 

[ajcstr]

1500 ! Sorry had to post # 1500… faith without works is dead!

 

[lanman87]

1500 ! Sorry had to post # 1500… faith without works is dead!

LOL, No doubt about it!