Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[AugustTherese]

So to say Faith alone doesn’t mean Faith without works. Faith includes works.

That is Catholic doctrine. That is not Protestant doctrine. Protestant doctrine defines ‘faith alone’ as only faith justifies and nothing else is required to obtain the grace of justification:

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. - Council of Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 9

 

[lanman87]

That is Catholic doctrine. That is not Protestant doctrine. Protestant doctrine defines ‘faith alone’ as only faith justifies and nothing else is required to obtain the grace of justification:

Not exactly. I’ve been reading many of the historic great preachers in Evangelical History. It is clear to me that when they speak of faith they are speaking of a complete surrender of oneself to the Lordship to Christ. So to the mind of someone who truly understands the historic protestant position, they would understand faith to necessarily include all those things we do (repent, obedience, charity, giving, worship, witness…) as a result of surrendering ourselves to Christ. If our claims of faith don’t include those things then it isn’t (despite our claims) a saving faith. So, if the minds of those preachers, we are saved by faith alone, but that faith must include works of faith or else it doesn’t meet the definition of a saving faith.

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

That is Catholic doctrine. That is not Protestant doctrine. Protestant doctrine defines ‘faith alone’ as only faith justifies and nothing else is required to obtain the grace of justification:

Not exactly. I’ve been reading many of the historic great preachers in Evangelical History. It is clear to me that when they speak of faith they are speaking of a complete surrender of oneself to the Lordship to Christ. So to the mind of someone who truly understands the historic protestant position, they would understand faith to necessarily include all those things we do (repent, obedience, charity, giving, worship, witness…) as a result of surrendering ourselves to Christ. If our claims of faith don’t include those things then it isn’t (despite our claims) a saving faith. So, if the minds of those preachers, we are saved by faith alone, but that faith must include works of faith or else it doesn’t meet the definition of a saving faith.

Would you agree with the following:

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14)?

 

[lanman87]

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14)?

I was shocked the first time I read that quote from Pope Benedict. His definition of faith is very much like the definitions of faith I’ve heard in sermons and classes my entire life. Of course, He disagrees with the hows and what’s of looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ and conformed to Christ. But to hear a Pope recognize that “faith alone” means more than “belief alone” is very encouraging.

 

[STMgtd]

This happened in 1999, and was ratified by other churches later up until 2017:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

The Church considers the matter has been decided as an issue of people simply talking across purposes. There’s no real issue of division.

 

[AugustTherese]

Does Saint James in James 2 teach that we are justified by faith alone?

 

[lanman87]

Does Saint James in James 2 teach that we are justified by faith alone

I have answered this above:

Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24 Non-Catholic Religions

The Greek word for Just/Justify/Justification has basically the same meanings as the English word. When it is used by a court or judge it is “To declare someone is just”. “The judge declared that Joe was justified in killing the intruder”. In this case Joe was declare just by a higher authority. What he did was right and correct and lawful. However it can also be used to present evidence of something. For instance. “Joe justified his stance on gun control with crime statistics.” In this …

 

[AugustTherese]

I have answered this above

With all due respect, you did not answer the question. You must first answer with a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’, then follow up with a rebuttal. Some questions aren’t designed for for a ‘yes’/‘no’ response; they are referred to as open-ended questions. However, the question I asked was a closed-ended question that calls for a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

“…anything more comes from the evil one.” Luke 5:37

 

[AugustTherese]

James is imploring us to not be made right by our works but to “Show you my faith by my works”

That is a most interesting interpretation. Because, when I read Scripture alone, “James” IS saying we are “made right”, i.e made righteous/justified by our works.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Also, you are taking that “show you my faith” to a context that isn’t there. Look at verse 20: “Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?” He is not using the word “shown” in the sense of what we can see with our eyes. If so, then that verse would make no sense; how can we be “shown faith without works”? How can one see faith without works?

 

[lanman87]

With all due respect, you did not answer the question. You must first answer with a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’, then follow up with a rebuttal. Some questions aren’t designed for for a ‘yes’/‘no’ response; they are referred to as open-ended questions. However, the question I asked was a closed-ended question that calls for a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

Yes, we are justified by works. If you use the proper definition of justified in context of the paragraph. Which is evidential. As a James said earlier in the paragraph, “I will show you my faith by my works”. Our works justify (give evidence) of our faith. They are us “showing our faith by our works”.

 

[lanman87]

He is not using the word “shown” in the sense of what we can see with our eyes. If so, then that verse would make no sense; how can we be “shown faith without works”? How can one see faith without works?

Correct, he is using shown in verse 20 to indicate understanding. The NLT translates it this way, 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Which is the point of the paragraph. Faith without works is dead, it isn’t alive, it can’t save you. A truth faith has works. The works give evidence(dikaioo) of our faith. They are ways others see our faith. Works are how we express our faith.

 

[AugustTherese]

Yes, we are justified by works

Amen, lanman87! Keep following your heart! <3

 

[spina1953]

In James 1:22-25 He speaks of putting the Word of God into practice. it seems to me james here is speaking of faith in action and not just saying I have faith and that is all I need. james is saying if one has real faith they do something with it. This sounds to me that James is not saying faith alone but a faith where one does something with it like doing good works of come kind. What good is it to say I have faith and I am justified and so I don’t need to do anything Christ did for me, so there is nothing for me to do, that is I have faith in Christ so I am automatically saved and so therefore I do not have to do anything more than just have faith i don’t need to do any good works, Christ already did that for me. That type of thinking makes no sense since faith seems to be a action word so then one does something with it not just saying it. I really do not see anything in James where he says or states that one only needs faith and nothing more… Yet, James is not saying one has to be doing good works only but a combination of faith and good works go together to be justified.

In Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians 19b-13 “You will multiply good works of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God.” This verse seems to point to not just having faith but doing something with it like good works so this ties in in with what James is saying right long. So faith and good works do go together in order to be justified .

 

[lanman87]

james is saying if one has real faith they do something with it.

The Protestant position is that we are saved by a faith that produces works. Any declaration of “I have faith” that doesn’t produce works isn’t the kind of faith that saves. A saving faith is a living faith that produces works of faith, or “Faith working in love”.

Works don’t add to our salvation but they are part of our salvation. Our works don’t make us right with God but they are what happens when we are right with God. If they don’t happen then we don’t have a true saving faith and we are not right with God.

 

[spina1953]

Ianman87: True works alone does not save but i disagree in that I think works do add to one’s salvation if it is done with faith. Just as good works or deens alone does not save neither does faith alone save anyone, they have to go together. That being said, there are many who seem to think faith alone without doing any works or deeds and will be saved. This exactly what James was talking about when the converted Pharisees in Jerusalem were saying one dod not need to do anything just have faith and nothing else and one is saved.

The problem really stems from the time of Luther who decided that Paul was saying its faith alone that saves and that James was saying good works or deeds saves that Paul was correct and james was wrong. However, Both were speaking to two different audiences. In Paul who was speaking to converted Gentiles who the converted Pharisees were teaching and preaching that in order to be saved one had to be circumcised and follow the laws of Moses and so Paul was saying no that the rituals one followed as a Jew no longer applied that it was faith in Christ and not under the Jewish law that under the Jewish law no one was saved.
James on the other hand was referring to the converted Pharisees who were teaching and preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem that one did not need to do any deed or good work just have faith and one is saved which James spoke against that teaching and preaching.
If works do not add to one’s salvation than how can it be a part of salvation? Either it is or its not. If when one comes to be judged by Christ and they Lord Lord but I did in Jesus’s name and they end up in hell because they did nothing with the faith given them, as apposed to those who did deeds and works showing that their faith was active and end up in heaven, according to Matthew’s Gospel 26:31-46. It seems to me works or deeds are a part of salvation just as faith is a part of salvation Good works or deeds without faith is dead just as faith without good works or deeds is dead without faith.
Good works or deeds are done out of love for God expecting no return for doing them. The reason being is when one is doing good works or deeds they really are the instrument of of God doing His work or deed through the person; the person taking no credit for it. It seems to me from what you are saying is works don’t make us right with God but happens when one is right with God. I can understand the thesis of a saving faith is a living faith that produces works, the fact remains that in the end no one know with certainty one is saved till they are judged and are in heaven, otherwise just saying I am saved is a persuasion on one’s part.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87:

.

faith to necessarily include all those things we do (repent, obedience, charity, giving, worship, witness…) as a result of surrendering ourselves to Christ. If our claims of faith don’t include those things then it isn’t (despite our claims) a saving faith.

.
This is good Ianman87 and pretty close. So close I won’t challenge it (I might add “hope” and mention these are graces that we cooperate with, but it seems so good, that I don’t think it necessary for me to do so in this context).

 

[spina1953]

Cathololic: I agree with this you posted!

 

[JonNC]

spina1953:

james is saying if one has real faith they do something with it.

The Protestant position is that we are saved by a faith that produces works. Any declaration of “I have faith” that doesn’t produce works isn’t the kind of faith that saves. A saving faith is a living faith that produces works of faith, or “Faith working in love”.

Works don’t add to our salvation but they are part of our salvation. Our works don’t make us right with God but they are what happens when we are right with God. If they don’t happen then we don’t have a true saving faith and we are not right with God.

And this position is as old as the Reformation. Luther on Galatians 5:6
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

 

[spina1953]

What about Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians 1:9b-13 “You will multiply good works of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God.” Seems to me this verse points to doing works and not just having faith. Its true that Christ’s death opened the for salvation by His grace. we are saved when we are Baptized, yet we can loss it by sin. In the end the only ones who can really say they have been saved are those in heaven

 

[JonNC]

What about Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians 1:9b-13 “You will multiply good works of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God.” Seems to me this verse points to doing works and not just having faith. Its true that Christ’s death opened the for salvation by His grace. we are saved when we are Baptized, yet we can loss it by sin. In the end the only ones who can really say they have been saved are those in heaven

Amen to this. and of course, Colossians isn’t disputed by those who believe in sola fide