Justify war with the Gospel?

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Jesus taught us to love God and our neighbors as our selves. He told us to turn the other cheek when we are wronged. He died on the cross because He wanted to show us that giving up everything in this world for the Truth would give us eternal happiness with God. So, how can war be compatible with His gospel?
 
A war of agression for personal or national selfish gain CAN’T be justified. One can make the case that even self defense maybe ought to be foresworn by those free to give their lives (no dependents such as missionaries, priests, nuns, singles, etc) if the sacrifice glorifes God.

But self defense for those who have dependents and leaders charged with the safety of others has always been affirmed as a right and a duty by the church.

The trick is discerning the line between self-defense and retribution. As we all well know!
 
manualman said:
A war of agression for personal or national selfish gain CAN’T be justified. One can make the case that even self defense maybe ought to be foresworn by those free to give their lives (no dependents such as missionaries, priests, nuns, singles, etc) if the sacrifice glorifes God.

But self defense for those who have dependents and leaders charged with the safety of others has always been affirmed as a right and a duty by the church.

The trick is discerning the line between self-defense and retribution. As we all well know!
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thanks for your response and it is a very beautifull answer. My next question would be: Didn’t Jesus tell us in his Gospel that we are to leave parents, spouses, children and even give up our own lives to follow him? So, how can self defense for dependents sake be justified with His Gospel?
 
phantom said:
thanks for your response and it is a very beautifull answer. My next question would be: Didn’t Jesus tell us in his Gospel that **we are to leave parents, spouses, children and even give up our own lives to follow him? ** So, how can self defense for dependents sake be justified with His Gospel?
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Where did he tell us to do that?

In Luke 22:36 he told Peter to sell his coat and buy a sword. If that was not for self defence then what was the sword for?
 
phantom said:
thanks for your response and it is a very beautifull answer. My next question would be: Didn’t Jesus tell us in his Gospel that we are to leave parents, spouses, children and even give up our own lives to follow him? So, how can self defense for dependents sake be justified with His Gospel?
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I believe that you are ultimately correct. A person who has truly given everything over to God would not pick up a weapon and kill another person for any reason.

However, until I am in the position where I travel from place to place, eating only what I am offered, speaking of God’s kingdom to any who will listen, I must admit that I fall short of that total committment.

While I have a wife and children who depend on me, I would try to stop a person who was determined to kill them. If the only way I could do it was to kill that person, I think I could keep peace with God even if I could not claim to be a disciple of Jesus.

That kind of situation is really a very rare thing. In this time or any other. People who live generous lives in touch with Jesus’s message about God’s kingdom will not likely have to make such decisions

Jim
 
Remember that even the Gospel must the seen in the light of the whole of the Revelation of God. When we do this we can see that Jesus did not demand that we lay down our lives for any cause but rather that we lay down our life for Him and Him alone. Thus in the face of persecution it is a virtue to escape that persecution but it is a act of heroic virtue to give witness to Christ in ones own death. However, this does not extend to lives that are not our own. Thus, through the use of the virtue of prudence and courage we find that there are times when we are in fact called to take up the sword and there are times when we are called to lay it down. Even among the most peaceable Saints of the Church St. Frances desired to fight in the just cause of the Crusades as did many other Saints. However, each of them, as exemplified in St. Ignatius of Loyola knew when to put down the sword and take up the Cross.
 
thistle said:
Where did he tell us to do that?

In Luke 22:36 he told Peter to sell his coat and buy a sword. If that was not for self defence then what was the sword for?
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I don’t know why Jesus told Peter to buy a sword, that is a good question. Jesus did say that anyone who wanted to be his follower had to leave all else behind. He told one man to follow him, the man said let me bury my father first and Jesus said “let the dead bury the dead” anyone who does not leave all else to follow me cannot be my desciple. I am looking for the justification for war and I don’t see it in Jesus’s Gospel. I do not consider myself a pacifist. The Gospel seems to say that anyone who does not leave all else to follow Jesus is guilty of idolatry…how will we be judged? I have no idea. Jesus says it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom, but with God all things are possible. He also says Happy are the poor in spirit… Which answers how the rich man will get to heaven. I don’t see anywhere in his Gospel that he justifies war, in fact he shows us that everything we have here on earth should be foresaken in order to attain eternal life.
 
phantom said:
Jesus taught us to love God and our neighbors as our selves. He told us to turn the other cheek when we are wronged. He died on the cross because He wanted to show us that giving up everything in this world for the Truth would give us eternal happiness with God. So, how can war be compatible with His gospel?
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It’s not. Well done! 👍
 
phantom said:
I don’t know why Jesus told Peter to buy a sword, that is a good question. Jesus did say that anyone who wanted to be his follower had to leave all else behind. He told one man to follow him, the man said let me bury my father first and Jesus said “let the dead bury the dead” anyone who does not leave all else to follow me cannot be my desciple. I am looking for the justification for war and I don’t see it in Jesus’s Gospel. I do not consider myself a pacifist. The Gospel seems to say that anyone who does not leave all else to follow Jesus is guilty of idolatry…how will we be judged? I have no idea. Jesus says it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom, but with God all things are possible. He also says Happy are the poor in spirit… Which answers how the rich man will get to heaven. I don’t see anywhere in his Gospel that he justifies war, in fact he shows us that everything we have here on earth should be foresaken in order to attain eternal life.
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Here Jesus is talking about the spiritually dead.

And to help with your main question Jesus said in John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down’s one life for one’s friends”
 
thistle said:
Where did he tell us to do that?

In Luke 22:36 he told Peter to sell his coat and buy a sword. If that was not for self defence then what was the sword for?
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Jesus’ final words make it clear that circumstances are changing. Opposition to the disciples is rising. Where before Jesus had sent them out empty-handed yet they were provided for (9:1-6; 10:3-4), now they will have to take provisions and protection for their travel. They will have to procure a sword. Scripture such as Isaiah 53:12 is finding its fulfillment in Jesus. Jesus is rejected; he is numbered with the transgressors.
The disciples take Jesus’ remarks literally and incorrectly. They note that they have two swords, but Jesus cuts off the discussion. Something is not right, but it is too late to discuss it. As the arrest will show, they have misunderstood. They draw swords then, but Jesus stops their defense in its tracks. He is not telling them to buy swords to wield in physical battle. They will have to provide for themselves and fend for themselves, but not through the shedding of blood. They are being drawn into a great cosmic struggle, and they must fight with spiritual swords and resources. The purchase of swords serves only to picture this coming battle. This fight requires special weapons (Eph 6:10-18). Humility, dependence, promise of authority and reward, warnings about opposition and the pursuit of faithfulness are the topics of Jesus’ final testament meal. Luke assumes that disciples will engage the larger world and face a great cosmic battle. But they are not to withdraw or be afraid. Rather, with humility and looking to God, they can face suffering and the world bravely and effectively. Jesus is about to exemplify the walk of the innocent before a hostile world. His success is not indicated by his withdrawal or even his survival; it is indicated by his faithfulness (1 Pet 2:21-25).
 
thistle said:
Jesus said in John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down’s one life for one’s friends”
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He goes on to say-
“You are my friends if you do what I command you. I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, 6 because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.” [Slaves . . . friends: in the Old Testament, Moses (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/deuteronomy/deuteronomy34.htm#v5”]Deut 34:5), Joshua (Joshua 24:29), and David (Psalm 89:21) were called “servants” or “slaves of Yahweh”; only Abraham (Isaiah 41:8; 2 Chron 20:7; cf James 2:23) was called a “friend of God.”]

Nowhere does Jesus instruct us to go to war.
 
thistle said:
Here Jesus is talking about the spiritually dead.

And to help with your main question Jesus said in John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down’s one life for one’s friends”
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You believe that to “lay down one’s life for one’s friend” is a justification of war? In the passage about Jesus telling the man to let the dead bury the dead, the man’s father and entire family may be spiritually dead but Jesus still says any man who will not leave everything of this world to follow him cannot be his desciple. Maybe we all just see what we want to see. I know Popes have issued statements of “just wars” throughtout history and I am sure not going to say they were wrong, but I just don’t see it in Jesus’ Gospel. Jesus could have been a great leader on this earth and he could have taught us many things. He could easily have assembled an army to protect him from Rome and the Hebrews and led a revolution, instead he would rather be sacrificed on the cross to attain eternal life in heaven. He told us he was our teacher and we are his students and every good student should strive to be like his teacher. In my own mind, I don’t see any contradictions in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I sure see alot of contradictions in the way his Gospel has been interpreted by all of us ever since he died and was raised.
 
phantom said:
You believe that to “lay down one’s life for one’s friend” is a justification of war? In the passage about Jesus telling the man to let the dead bury the dead, the man’s father and entire family may be spiritually dead but Jesus still says any man who will not leave everything of this world to follow him cannot be his desciple. Maybe we all just see what we want to see. I know Popes have issued statements of “just wars” throughtout history and I am sure not going to say they were wrong, but I just don’t see it in Jesus’ Gospel. Jesus could have been a great leader on this earth and he could have taught us many things. He could easily have assembled an army to protect him from Rome and the Hebrews and led a revolution, instead he would rather be sacrificed on the cross to attain eternal life in heaven. He told us he was our teacher and we are his students and every good student should strive to be like his teacher. In my own mind, I don’t see any contradictions in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I sure see alot of contradictions in the way his Gospel has been interpreted by all of us ever since he died and was raised.
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I’m talking about self defence. How do you lay down your life for someone if you are not trying to defend them. We are not just talking about war. We are talking about self defence. A just war is self defence on a large scale.
You cannot seriously tell me that if a foreign power invades your country you expect everyone to surrender. How about if a house breaker tries to rape and murder children in their home are you saying the father should just watch and say carry on?
Come on now get real!!
 
Laying down one’s life for a friend can be taken lots of ways. I think the major way, and the way Jesus meant the comment, was that to sacrifice one’s life for others was the greatest love one can show. Your two examples are excellent. I would defend my country from invaders and I would probably be dead before my wife and children were harmed by a robber or if I got lucky the robber would be dead. I believe that the Gospel of Jesus is the only truth that is in this world and it is free of contradiction. But I have a problem when people talk about a “just war” in Christian terms, I just don’t understand where this justification comes from in Jesus’ Gospel. I know you have given a couple good examples of where you see war being justified by the Gospel and that is your interpretation. I suppose my original question is just a philosophical question and maybe it is irrelevent because as a citizen I am obligated to defend my country and my leaders will make the decisions on war. I do believe in the current world political climate we face some questions in comparing our Christian faith to the Muslim faith.
 
FightingFat said:
Jesus’ final words make it clear that circumstances are changing. Opposition to the disciples is rising. Where before Jesus had sent them out empty-handed yet they were provided for (9:1-6; 10:3-4), now they will have to take provisions and protection for their travel. They will have to procure a sword. Scripture such as Isaiah 53:12 is finding its fulfillment in Jesus. Jesus is rejected; he is numbered with the transgressors.
The disciples take Jesus’ remarks literally and incorrectly. They note that they have two swords, but Jesus cuts off the discussion. Something is not right, but it is too late to discuss it. As the arrest will show, they have misunderstood. They draw swords then, but Jesus stops their defense in its tracks. He is not telling them to buy swords to wield in physical battle. They will have to provide for themselves and fend for themselves, but not through the shedding of blood. They are being drawn into a great cosmic struggle, and they must fight with spiritual swords and resources. The purchase of swords serves only to picture this coming battle. This fight requires special weapons (Eph 6:10-18). Humility, dependence, promise of authority and reward, warnings about opposition and the pursuit of faithfulness are the topics of Jesus’ final testament meal. Luke assumes that disciples will engage the larger world and face a great cosmic battle. But they are not to withdraw or be afraid. Rather, with humility and looking to God, they can face suffering and the world bravely and effectively. Jesus is about to exemplify the walk of the innocent before a hostile world. His success is not indicated by his withdrawal or even his survival; it is indicated by his faithfulness (1 Pet 2:21-25).
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Thank you. That is a very beautifull discussion of those passages.
 
When John the Baptist counseled some soldiers after they said “what shall we do?” he told them to be honest in their dealings, but he didn’t say to resign(Lk 3:14).
However, I realize that this is not conclusive evidence, and in fact I don’t think the New Testament spoke in favor of war (though it didn’t speak against it either). The Old Testament did justify war often (as with the revolt during the time of the Maccabees against a foreign tyrant), but perhaps some would dismiss that as a case where the morality of the Old Testament became more perfect in the New. Actually, I base my own view in the matter on the traditional Catholic teaching on just war, which in fact says that war can be moral. Perhaps this is a matter where the Church supplements what the Bible has to say.
However, I would be interested if someone did find evidence in the New Tesatment that war is justified, though I don’t see it myself.
phantom said:
Thank you. That is a very beautifull discussion of those passages.
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Jesus warns us of the end times and says wars must happen. (Lk 21:9) he does not say that they should not happen but the MUST.

with someone breaking in your house and you killing in self deffens. I emagine we all would still ask for forgivness, maybe because we know killing is wrong. and it is not the outcome we wished for the intruder. but of course you would not be as culpable as if you where the intruder who happend to kill.
 
Could you be a little more specific? Show us where in his Gospel Jesus tells us war is justified?
 
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