Justify war with the Gospel?

[mlchance]

Could you be a little more specific? Show us where in his Gospel Jesus tells us war is justified?

Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel. Then go on to show me where you get the authority to contradict Church doctrine.

Or we could all just admit that the Church, not you or I, is the final arbiter about what is or is not allowed by the teachings of Jesus. The Church has a doctrine of just war.2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.
QED

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[phantom]

Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel.

The Church, not you, is the final arbiter about what is or is not allowed by the teachings of Jesus. The Church has a doctrine of just war.

QED

– Mark L. Chance.

I never said that I was the “arbiter” of anything. I ask questions so I may better understand. It is odd how you feel threatened by my question to the point you accuse me of heresy. Turn the other cheek. Love and pray for your enemies. And the greatest statement anyone can make…allowing Himself to be brutally beaten and killed when He certainly could have assembled an army and lead a revolution to destroy those who sought to kill Him and His followers. He showed us that nothing in this world was worth fighting for if it kept you from the most desirable goal anyone could attain…resurrection and eternal life. Jesus told us He came so that the law could be fullfilled. He said: It is done.

 

[mlchance]

I never said that I was the “arbiter” of anything. I ask questions so I may better understand. It is odd how you feel threatened by my question to the point you accuse me of heresy.

Now you’re just being silly. I’m no more threatened by you than I am worried about fuzzy red devils lurking beneath my furniture. Nor did I accuse you of heresy, but that you inferred that perhaps speaks volumes.

That aside, I noticed you didn’t actually answer a single one of my questions. Here they are again: Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel. Then go on to show me where you get the authority to contradict Church doctrine.

In brief: Can war be justified within an authentic Christian context? Yes, it can. The Church says so, and the Church has a doctrine of just war. Thus, claiming that there can never be a Christian justification for war contradicts Church teaching and is, therefore, a false statement.

If you don’t like that answer, your argument isn’t with me. It’s with Holy Mother Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Victorious]

thanks for your response and it is a very beautifull answer. My next question would be: Didn’t Jesus tell us in his Gospel that we are to leave parents, spouses, children and even give up our own lives to follow him? So, how can self defense for dependents sake be justified with His Gospel?

This is an example of how excessive literalism in interpreting the Bible can lead to moral paralysis. It’s why we can’t each be our own Magisterium.

The CCC at 2265 is directly on point:

Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

 

[phantom]

This is an example of how excessive literalism in interpreting the Bible can lead to moral paralysis. It’s why we can’t each be our own Magisterium.

The CCC at 2265 is directly on point:

Then why didn’t Jesus assemble an army to wage war against his enemies?

 

[mosher]

Then why didn’t Jesus assemble an army to wage war against his enemies?

He will at His second coming.

 

[phantom]

Now you’re just being silly. I’m no more threatened by you than I am worried about fuzzy red devils lurking beneath my furniture. Nor did I accuse you of heresy, but that you inferred that perhaps speaks volumes.

That aside, I noticed you didn’t actually answer a single one of my questions. Here they are again: Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel. Then go on to show me where you get the authority to contradict Church doctrine.

In brief: Can war be justified within an authentic Christian context? Yes, it can. The Church says so, and the Church has a doctrine of just war. Thus, claiming that there can never be a Christian justification for war contradicts Church teaching and is, therefore, a false statement.

If you don’t like that answer, your argument isn’t with me. It’s with Holy Mother Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

I have no argument with u or the Church. Just show me where in His gospel he shows us or tells us that we should go to war with our enemies. He could have been a great leader here on earth, He could have assembled an army. So, why didn’t He?

 

[mlchance]

Then why didn’t Jesus assemble an army to wage war against his enemies?

Because that wasn’t his mission during his life on earth.

Back to my questions: Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel. Then go on to show me where you get the authority to contradict Church doctrine.

Here’s another one: Jesus in John’s Gospel clearly identifies himself as Yahweh of the Old Testament. Yahweh in the Old Testament orders the Jewish people to wage wars of conquest against pagan nations. Since God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, how is that all of sudden the Son of God changed his mind about war?

I have no argument with u or the Church.

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Victorious]

Then why didn’t Jesus assemble an army to wage war against his enemies?

So, you’re saying that because Jesus didn’t assemble an army to wage war against His enemies, that means we don’t have a legitimate right to use force to defend ourselves?

I’ve seen middle-sized non sequiturs, microscopic non sequiturs and brontosaurus-sized non sequiturs. I’ve seen non sequiturs that whisper gently, and ones that crash and roar like an army of elephants. I’ve seen majestic ones and profane ones, solemn ones and comical ones.

But they all stand aside in awe at this one.

 

[phantom]

Jesus gave us two commandments:1)Love God above all else. 2)Love our neighbor as ourself. If we love the world and its pleasures so much that we are willing to KILL our neighbors to preserve it for us are we guilty of the sin of idolatry?

 

[mlchance]

I have no argument with u or the Church.

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I have no argument with u or the Church. Just show me where in His gospel he shows us or tells us that we should go to war with our enemies. He could have been a great leader here on earth, He could have assembled an army. So, why didn’t He?

Because the time had not yet come for this battle. As Mosher said above, His plan for this battle will be the end for all earth’s kingdoms but His own. First Christ will build his Church, and then the end. Don’t put the cart before the horse.

 

[phantom]

So, you’re saying that because Jesus didn’t assemble an army to wage war against His enemies, that means we don’t have a legitimate right to use force to defend ourselves?

I’ve seen middle-sized non sequiturs, microscopic non sequiturs and brontosaurus-sized non sequiturs. I’ve seen non sequiturs that whisper gently, and ones that crash and roar like an army of elephants. I’ve seen majestic ones and profane ones, solemn ones and comical ones.

But they all stand aside in awe at this one.

Why do you think Jesus’ enemies wanted him dead and one of his followers turned him in to his enemies? They feared his teachings would cause their country to be destroyed. Judas wanted Jesus to stand up to his enemies and fight. He didn’t understand that Jesus’ goal was not of this world.

 

[Victorious]

Jesus gave us two commandments:1)Love God above all else. 2)Love our neighbor as ourself. If we love the world and its pleasures so much that we are willing to KILL our neighbors to preserve it for us are we guilty of the sin of idolatry?

I give you the CCC at 2264:

Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

 

[mlchance]

Why do you think Jesus’ enemies wanted him dead and one of his followers turned him in to his enemies? They feared his teachings would cause their country to be destroyed. Judas wanted Jesus to stand up to his enemies and fight. He didn’t understand that Jesus’ goal was not of this world.

Once again:

I have no argument with u or the Church.

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war. Right?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[phantom]

Because that wasn’t his mission during his life on earth.

Back to my questions: Show me where in the Gospel Jesus tells us war is never justified. More importantly, show me in the Gospel where Jesus says he personally taught everything about every issue in the Gospel. Then go on to show me where you get the authority to contradict Church doctrine.

Here’s another one: Jesus in John’s Gospel clearly identifies himself as Yahweh of the Old Testament. Yahweh in the Old Testament orders the Jewish people to wage wars of conquest against pagan nations. Since God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, how is that all of sudden the Son of God changed his mind about war?

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war.

– Mark L. Chance.

I gave you how I believe Jesus answered your questions in my post #22. Clearly Jesus fullfilled the law in his Gospel. He said He came so that the old law could be fullfilled. He said the old law was based on fear and sacrifice, but what he wants is love and mercy. So there was a kind of spiritual evolution from the old testament to Jesus’ Gospel. He discounted the “eye for an eye” philosphy and replaced it with love your enemies. His life was an act of love and mercy and his death was an act of love and mercy. He told us part of what Moses taught in the old testament was because we were so unruly. This is not my interpretation…this is what he said. I don’t think there is any heresy in it.

 

[mlchance]

You keep dodging. You claimed:

I have no argument with u or the Church.

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war. Right?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Victorious]

I gave you how I believe Jesus answered your questions in my post #22. Clearly Jesus fullfilled the law in his Gospel. He said He came so that the old law could be fullfilled. He said the old law was based on fear and sacrifice, but what he wants is love and mercy. So there was a kind of spiritual evolution from the old testament to Jesus’ Gospel. He discounted the “eye for an eye” philosphy and replaced it with love your enemies. His life was an act of love and mercy and his death was an act of love and mercy. He told us part of what Moses taught in the old testament was because we were so unruly. This is not my interpretation…this is what he said. I don’t think there is any heresy in it.

But you are not merely giving us what Jesus said: you’re giving us your own spin on it. And you persist in this interpretation even in the face of the passages from the CCC that you have been presented with. They squarely contradict the blanket prohibition against the use of force that you seem to be espousing.

2 Peter 1:20-21:

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

[phantom]

Once again:

Then you must admit that there can be such a thing as a just war. Right?

– Mark L. Chance.

Yes, if the Church says it is so, then it is so. But I don’t see it in His Gospel unless you consider when he tells us Moses gave us divorce because we were so unruly as a suggestion of why we see contridictions. Jesus told us He was our teacher and we are His students and every good student should strive to be like His teacher. He chose not to fight for the things of this world and I believe He did that because he placed more value in eternal life than in the things of this world. He knew there would be a resurrection and His followers at that time did not. I think He showed us what the BEST path was. Whether we are capable of accepting that same path is not as important as us admitting that it is the best path. We can never expect to fully accept the Truth if we don’t have the courage to admit what the Truth is.

 

[mlchance]

Yes, if the Church says it is so, then it is so. But…

Nope, not “buts.” The Church says that war can be just (indeed that war can even be obligatory), and she does so as a matter of doctrine.

– Mark L. Chance.