Look at the passages I gave you earlier from the CCC. These flatly contradict your position.
That was never my intention of the original post. I asked where IN THE GOSPEL IS WAR JUSTIFIED.
No, I do not disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church and there is no danger in asking a serious question. Where in the Gospel is war justified? The just war doctrine does not appear in the Gospel. What you are trying to do is stifle thought in order to secure yourself. When I was young our parish priest died and we got a temporary pastor from a nearby monastary. He was a faithfull man. One Sunday he was giveing his homily and struggle to get out the words. He paused and then said: “When we become priests, we are young and full of faith. We are ready to die on the cross for the Gospel of Jesus. Then we are placed in a parish and we struggle with how we are going to get the Church’s monthly utility bill paid.” He was struggling with the complex task of living his faith, preaching the Gospel of Jesus and maitaining the institution of the Catholic Church. There are comprises that are made and they are difficult. Why do you believe that it is impossible for the just war doctrine to be a product of the institution of the Catholic Church and not be present in the Gospel of Jesus?
There are multiple places that I could cite but have already been cited. However, I think that you do not understand the nature of war. Without understanding the nature of war itself I can see how you will find trouble with this. A just was is so called because it is the fight for the good. However it is not a “tit for tat” struggle one power to the next. A war in the cause of justice is fundamentally Christian because it is the fight of good against evil itself become manifest in the flesh. For this reason spoke about how he did not come to unite but to divide. Jesus told us that there would be a time when family would be set against family because of Him. He also commanded those who did not have a sword to buy one. Yes, the better way is to avoid such conflict however that is not always possible in a world infected with Original Sin and the consequences thereof. So, for man to fight in a just cause is to take up the Banner of Christ at least in the heart and fight for what is good as He is good not for the love of the vain things of this world but rather for the good that is in the world which we are to reverence for the sake of He who labored over Creation.
The Pope disagrees
The Pope does not disagree that there is something called a Just War. Neither did the Late Holy Father or any other before him. Such a claim is far from the truth.The Pope disagrees
Errr…No it’s not. Pope Benedict, in a recent interview said that it is doubtful that there is such a thing as a just war in the modern world. Want me to get a link for you?
Now don’t get me wrong (often happens here) I understand perfectly that it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor, and that that is the Churches position, but the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals. To pretend otherwise is wholly misleading, and certainly, Jesus doesn’t teach us to fight in the Gospel, he teaches us to LOVE.
Wrong, that is precisely what the just war doctrine exists for, to determine whether or not a war is justified in accordance with Catholic doctrine. Church teaching very clearly contradicts you, so, to point this out again, if you disagree, it’s not with me, but with Holy Mother Church.
My goodness, what a silly accusation! A Catholic clinging to Catholic doctrine! Scandalous! For the record, I have all of the Church’s doctrines, and I do my best to cling to all of them, not just the ones that I find to my liking.
Thank you for a very good response. I have not personally been through a war or fought in a war. My father did. I think there is a difference in our perception of war. I see war as chaos, where innocent men, women and children die and suffer on a routine basis because of the actions of the leaders of the countries involved. You apparantly see it as some type of clean theological event where the evil lose and the good win. It is not the soldier that has to answer the question of whether the war is just, it is the decision makers who wage the war. As citizens we are bound to be obedient to the leaders of our country if we are in military service. The soldiers are innocent victims as much as the civilians who are caught up in the battle. If you believe there is any good in war, then we do disagree on the very nature of war. War is evil. As for dividing us, the teachings of Jesus are capable of dividing us in many ways not just through a war.
If an innocent child were being attacked, would you come to the child’s defense, even if it meant using violence to defend him was necessary? If not, you could be committing a sin yourself, especially if you chose not to get involved, because of your own self interest.
If you have all the Church’s doctrines you must know that they have “evolved” quite alot through the centuries. The Gospel of Jesus has endured because it is pure truth, both philosophically and spiritually. To alter it would be to destroy it.
I do not believe that Jesus was a pacifist, although I suspect that he was accused of being a pacifist and I believe that contributed to his being tortured and killed by his own leaders. He used violence to chase the money changers out of the temple, but he wouldn’t mount a revolution or assemble an army to establish a worldly Kingdom. Jesus always taught obedience to civil authority. He told us not to fear the man who could destroy your body, fear the man who would destroy your soul. So, telling soldiers to abandon service would not have fit with his Gospel. I accept the just war doctrine as a practical matter, but I believe it is very tenuous as far as it being backed up by the Gospel. The just war doctrine is about as weak an endorsement of war as can be written. This actually is a matter that has rather haunted me most of my life…why didn’t Jesus establish a kingdom here on earth…as so many of us who profess to be his followers try to do? He could have been an incredible leader for us. My only conclusion is that for him not to have died on that cross would have been a philosophical contradiction of his teachings. He was so free of idolatry and fear that he new that heavens reward far outweighed anything we have here. He knew about the resurrection and we didn’t, but now we do. He couldn’t tell us to turn the other cheek and then not do so himself. He couldn’t tell us to love our enemies and then waged war against them. I would rather believe you are right, but I just don’t see it.
As one who would have lead men into battle I am very keen on what war is and its ramifications. I understand deeply what it means to sacrifice for the sake of the whole. In fact a good friend of mine just came back from Afghanistan. He is an Officer of Marines and lost eight men under his command. However, even in this we see the good in war. War itself is never desired but when it happens it must be fought and it is indeed a struggle between good and evil. The soldier on the ground is not in any way an innocent victim of the national powers. Rather, he makes an oath to uphold the interests of his nation (in the US this also has an aspect of objection by conscious) and knows that he will one day be called to give his life for the sake of his nation. A willing participant cannot be a victim. Further, even if one is impressed into the military through a draft or conscription they still have that obligation to work for the war effort in so far as they are able in a just war. In a just war all citizens have a moral obligation to support it and to oppose it is in fact a sin.
To pose the question is not a denial of the same. Rather such moral principles need to be constantly reviewed for their validity.
If these are the Pope’s words, this is him asking whether we ought to consider re-thinking the existence of a just war. To say that this is the Pope denying that there is such a thing as a just war is a mischaracterization.
There are times when civilized means of solving conflicts break down, and we must resort to arms. How much love can we honestly say we have for the innocent when we let evil, violent people run roughshod over them?