Justify war with the Gospel?

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mosher said:
To pose the question is not a denial of the same. Rather such moral principles need to be constantly reviewed for their validity.

Love is the impetus to fight a just war. The position that you advocate is contrary to the view of the Church when it took up this issue formally in the Early Church. Upon reflection it was determined that the command to love has within itself the command to fight even in combat if necessary for the sake of love. Hence to separate love and the defense of others is to distort love at its very foundation.
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I’m sorry mosher but you are mistaken. Even in the early church the topic was moot between two schools of thought; those that felt the battle should be purely spiritual, and waged in the monastaries and convents and Churches and those who thought that physical action was the answer justified as has been mentioned here by ‘laying down your life for your Christian brother’ but also, by another piece of Scripture no one has yet cited, that of Jesus and the Roman Soldier (Matthew 8:5-15)

I can see that war is a tremendous sacrifice for those who fight- those who don’t want to, but feel it is necessary to protect their families, their families freedoms and indeed in many cases their lives. But war is always a defeat for humanity. It represents a failure; and this is how the Church clearly represents it. There is no ambiguity in Church teaching in this regard.
 
Victorious said:
If these are the Pope’s words, this is him asking whether we ought to consider re-thinking the existence of a just war. To say that this is the Pope denying that there is such a thing as a just war is a mischaracterization.There are times when civilized means of solving conflicts break down, and we must resort to arms. How much love can we honestly say we have for the innocent when we let evil, violent people run roughshod over them?

I see an awful lot of people confusing love with misplaced compassion.
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Consider the evidence- yes war happens, but it is always wrong and always undesirable.

Consider Paul VI, crying out before the United Nations in 1965: War No More, War Never Again!

Consider Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, he said that a “war of aggression” is a crime against peace.

Consider John Paul the Great’s words. John Paul said. “Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of man.”

He didn’t say “There are times when civilized means of solving conflicts break down, and we must resort to arms.”
 
phantom said:
Why do you believe that it is impossible for the just war doctrine to be a product of the institution of the Catholic Church and not be present in the Gospel of Jesus?
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Can Jesus and His Church be separated?
 
I cannot see there is any debate about what the Church teaches in regards to war:
…Certainly, war has not been rooted out of human affairs. As long as the danger of war remains and there is no competent and sufficiently powerful authority at the international level, governments cannot be denied the right to legitimate defense once every means of peaceful settlement has been exhausted. State authorities and others who share public responsibility have the duty to conduct such grave matters soberly and to protect the welfare of the people entrusted to their care. But it is one thing to undertake military action for the just defense of the people, and something else again to seek the subjugation of other nations. Nor, by the same token, does the mere fact that war has unhappily begun mean that all is fair between the warring parties.GAUDIUM ET SPES
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As recently as the turmoil over the Pope’s recent speech, the Church’s message has been reiterated by the Holy father who stated:

“I wished to explain that it is not religion and violence, but religion and reason that go together.”

That means Faith in God and violence are not compatible. War is violence, therefore war and faith in God are not compatible!

Q.E.D.

🙂
 
FightingFat said:
As recently as the turmoil over the Pope’s recent speech, the Church’s message has been reiterated by the Holy father who stated:

“I wished to explain that it is not religion and violence, but religion and reason that go together.”

That means Faith in God and violence are not compatible. War is violence, therefore war and faith in God are not compatible!

Q.E.D.

🙂
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Self defense is not violence as the word is often intended to mean.
 
I can’t find the passage, but Jesus compares the cost of discipleship to a general who gauges if he has enough of an army to overcome the enemy. Now, one may quibble that this is a parable not about just war, but I contend that Our Lord would not use the analogy if it was about something that was intrinsicly wrong. Imagine a parable in which the cost of discipleship was like an abortionist who calculated how much it would cost to build an abortion clinic. It don’t work, and not just because their were no abortion clinics back then.
 
There’s more than one way to defend, but not with the forces of arms and murdering people, denying them a chance to repent. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Even Jesus said those that live by the sword die by the sword.
 
FightingFat said:
His exacts words-

today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war."

More from him on the subject-

Now don’t get me wrong (often happens here) I understand perfectly that it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor, and that that is the Churches position, but the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals. To pretend otherwise is wholly misleading, and certainly, Jesus doesn’t teach us to fight in the Gospel, he teaches us to LOVE.
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You tell them!! War, regardless of reason, is evil, and is never the answer @ all. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If we die, we die, at least we did as mrtyrs for Jesus’ sake.
 
Neo_Canaan said:
You tell them!! War, regardless of reason, is evil, and is never the answer @ all. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If we die, we die, at least we did as mrtyrs for Jesus’ sake.
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You are correct that two wrongs do not make a right. War in itself is not intrinsically evil. However, there are many common issues surrounding war that easily make it evil. For instance in our current situation I would argue that our intent in engaging war with Afghanistan was unjust as it was perpetuated by an intention of vengeance which is one aspect that will make a war unjust. However, war itself under the proper guidelines is not only just but rather is a virtue.
FightingFat said:
I’m sorry mosher but you are mistaken. Even in the early church the topic was moot between two schools of thought; those that felt the battle should be purely spiritual, and waged in the monastaries and convents and Churches and those who thought that physical action was the answer justified as has been mentioned here by ‘laying down your life for your Christian brother’ but also, by another piece of Scripture no one has yet cited, that of Jesus and the Roman Soldier (Matthew 8:5-15)

I can see that war is a tremendous sacrifice for those who fight- those who don’t want to, but feel it is necessary to protect their families, their families freedoms and indeed in many cases their lives. But war is always a defeat for humanity. It represents a failure; and this is how the Church clearly represents it. There is no ambiguity in Church teaching in this regard.
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While it is true that it is a failure just as any act of protection is a failure of humanity in that an aggressor under any circumstance has failed humanity. However, it is a reality and the reality of the issue is that when war is upon us it is a virtue to act accordingly.
 
War is not always wrong. Anyone who says so is in direct opposition to sacred scripture and sacred tradition. There is no argument that has to be made. A wee bit of reading will suffice.
 
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