S
ShanPO
Guest
So what happens if you bring up the fact that just yesterday you (and the organization) believed something completely opposite to what you are supposed to believe today?
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J
Jomann
Guest
You would be disfellowed.
You would be shunned. Nobody would even say a hello to you.
You would be shunned. Nobody would even say a hello to you.
W
Waynec
Guest
They believe the soul is what animates us and the spirit goes back to God’s memory. They do not believe in an immortal soul/spirit
W
Waynec
Guest
Actually I think they may make changes every 5 or 10 years or so. And it is true they can only get their writings from about 10 years back. At least that is for the average Witness. I am sure the governing body has access from the beginning.
L
Logically
Guest
I have browsed through the posts on this subject.
The conversation seems to have degraded from:
1.“Where did the JW’s book get:Jerome was the fist one to teach Jesus brothers were actually cousins?”
“By the 3rd century the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary had become well established; important early Christian theologians such as Hippolytus (170-235), Eusebius (260/265-339/340) and Epiphanius (c. 310/320-403) defended it. … Eusebius and Epiphanius held that these men were Joseph’s sons from (an unrecorded) former marriage.[7][12] … James and his siblings were not children of Mary but were children from a previous marriage. Joseph’s first wife died; many years later, at the age of eighty, “he took Mary (mother of Jesus)”. … Origen (184-254) also wrote that “according to the Gospel of Peter the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary”.[37]
Jerome (c.347-420), another important early theologian, also held the perpetual virginity doctrine, but argued that these adelphoi were sons of Mary’s sister, whom Jerome identified as Mary of Cleopas.[7][38] …”
Wikipedia has all the references if you want to research them. But basically it sounds like what the JWs said. = Jerome is the first one (that we know of) to argue the brothers of Jesus were his cousins.
(except the JWs left out that earlier Church theologians tried the rather ridiculous excuse that “Joseph was married before and Jesus brothers were his children to someone else, plus he was 80 when he married Mary”
)
It strikes me as amazing that you all immediately dismiss the JW’s evidence as fake and biased, and accuse JW’s of just believing whatever the WT says without question
Various, contradicting ideas had to be floated to explain this with the later (always virgin) church teaching.
Logically these fellows (Origen, Jerome, Hippolytus, Epiphanus etc…) were just proposing their own ideas!
That’s why they contradict!
I have no idea which ones of these or their peers first also added the ‘certainty’ that Mary stayed a Virgin all here life, (not until hundreds of years after Jesusat any rate) but I would be surprised if it was based on any better evidence than opinion and tradition.
The thing I like about the JW’s is they don’t let the opinion and tradition of later philosophers supersede God’s word.
Even if their own heros (like Tyndale, Newton, C.T. Russel, and J. F. Rutherford) said something, if it is later found that evidence from the Bible contradicts what they thought, God’s word, the Bible takes presedence.
The conversation seems to have degraded from:
1.“Where did the JW’s book get:Jerome was the fist one to teach Jesus brothers were actually cousins?”
- to
- A general tirade of assuring each other: “JW’s just make things up all the time and have to swallow it without thinking!”
“By the 3rd century the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary had become well established; important early Christian theologians such as Hippolytus (170-235), Eusebius (260/265-339/340) and Epiphanius (c. 310/320-403) defended it. … Eusebius and Epiphanius held that these men were Joseph’s sons from (an unrecorded) former marriage.[7][12] … James and his siblings were not children of Mary but were children from a previous marriage. Joseph’s first wife died; many years later, at the age of eighty, “he took Mary (mother of Jesus)”. … Origen (184-254) also wrote that “according to the Gospel of Peter the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary”.[37]
Jerome (c.347-420), another important early theologian, also held the perpetual virginity doctrine, but argued that these adelphoi were sons of Mary’s sister, whom Jerome identified as Mary of Cleopas.[7][38] …”
Wikipedia has all the references if you want to research them. But basically it sounds like what the JWs said. = Jerome is the first one (that we know of) to argue the brothers of Jesus were his cousins.
(except the JWs left out that earlier Church theologians tried the rather ridiculous excuse that “Joseph was married before and Jesus brothers were his children to someone else, plus he was 80 when he married Mary”
)It strikes me as amazing that you all immediately dismiss the JW’s evidence as fake and biased, and accuse JW’s of just believing whatever the WT says without question
- yet you all seem to automatically believe without question what the church later says! (ie. Mary was always a virgin and Jesus was her only child)
Various, contradicting ideas had to be floated to explain this with the later (always virgin) church teaching.
Logically these fellows (Origen, Jerome, Hippolytus, Epiphanus etc…) were just proposing their own ideas!
That’s why they contradict!I have no idea which ones of these or their peers first also added the ‘certainty’ that Mary stayed a Virgin all here life, (not until hundreds of years after Jesusat any rate) but I would be surprised if it was based on any better evidence than opinion and tradition.
The thing I like about the JW’s is they don’t let the opinion and tradition of later philosophers supersede God’s word.
Even if their own heros (like Tyndale, Newton, C.T. Russel, and J. F. Rutherford) said something, if it is later found that evidence from the Bible contradicts what they thought, God’s word, the Bible takes presedence.
L
Logically
Guest
You sound far better read on these early Theologians than me!
But a question that might make your above question irrelevant is:
"Which Church Theologians first proposed that Mary was always a virgin?"
If it wasn’t believed until long after Jesus, what does it matter when Jeromes solution to the Jesus siblings problem came along?
L
Logically
Guest
With respect, You are making a huge differentiation here:
On one hand you say* the regular everyday JW is honest and faith filled*,
but on the other hand you announce the “leaders” are intentionally deceiving and lying!
These “leaders” (as you call them) are just as honest and faith filled as the average JW (more so infact).
They have done the hard yards as volunteer preachers, missionaries and small congregation elders. Having sacrificed decades of their lives for what they genuinely belive to be true, (average JW characterics on steroids) they have gradually been given more and more (unpaid) responsibility until they are now in the group that oversees the entire organisation. (and now work more than full time, still unpaid, in caring for the hugh Bible teaching organisation)
At what point in this process did they transform from being genuine, honest, faith filled and generous - to being wicked, liars and selfish deceivers?
(Imagine this ridiculous scene:* “Come in and sit down Brother Smith. Well, you quit your high paying career and have spent 35 years full time teaching the Bible and helping congregations in the third world becuase you are so convinced what the JW’s teach is the truth.
Its time we told you the men in this room made it all up and it is an elaborate hoax to mislead the sort of people you have dedicated your life to help. Would you like to become a part of the hyrarchy that justifies all our falsehoods? We have a vacancy.!” *
)How is it that all these average JW’s are honest and faith filled (who expell wrongdoers from their congregations) when their leaders are evil liars and decievers?
Wouldn’t those wicked traits of their leaders filter down to the congregations?
Please explain how this all works.
L
Logically
Guest
Actually I have done some brief research and answered my own question. Wikipedia again (i know it isn’t infallible, but usually pretty accurate) has anarticle on “perpetual virginity of Mary.”…
"Which Church Theologians first proposed that Mary was always a virgin?"
If it wasn’t believed until long after Jesus, what does it matter when Jeromes solution to the Jesus siblings problem came along?
I quote in part (emphasis mine):
"*A second-century document that paid special attention to Mary’s virginity … this text does not explicitly assert Mary’s perpetual virginity after the birth of Jesus.
There was no full consensus on the doctrine of perpetual virginity within the early Church by the end of the second century, e.g. Tertullian (c.160 – c.225) did not teach the doctrine (although he taught virgin birth), but Irenaeus (c.130 – c.202) taught perpetual virginity, along with other Marian themes.[35] Origen (185-254) was emphatic on the issue of the brothers of Jesus, and stated that he believed them to have been the children of Joseph from a previous marriage.[43] However, wider support for the doctrine began to appear within the next century.[35]
Some writers from 4th century, Helvidius and Eunomius of Cyzicus… after Jesus’ birth, and that James, Joses, Jude, and Simon were the biological sons of Mary and Joseph, …
By the 4th century, the doctrine of perpetual virginity had been well attested.[46] For example, references can be found in the 3rd century writings of Hippolytus of Rome,…4th century works of Athanasius,[48] Epiphanius,[49] Hilary,[50] Didymus,[51] Ambrose,[52] Jerome,[53] and Siricius[54] continued the attestations to perpetual virginity – a trend that gathered pace in the next century.[4][5]*"
So:
It seems to me that the doctrine has a similar history to the Trinity.
It isn’t taught in the Bible, but it slowly evolved over hundreds of years and through many controversies and debates until it was eventually adopted into the Church.
(and afterwards, anyone who questioned it was labelled a heretic no doubt)
With this “truth” decided, and the Bible saying Jesus had siblings, Jerome taught that these siblings are infact cousins and not Mary’s other children at all!
(a better explaination than the idea that Mary was Josephs second wife)1700 years later JW’s correctly mention Jerome (without satisfactory quotes according to some) as being the first one to teach the cousin theory. (several posters on a discussion website decry JW’s as just swallowing whatever they are told without doing any research!
)Maybe someone else had the idea before Jerome and he just published it, but regardless, the belief Mary stayed a virgn through her married life hadn’t become doctrine yet, so when the explainations of how that worked came along seems kind of irrelevant to me.
The JW insight book quoted at the begining of this article by Wayntec looks accurate and stands up to research. Good.
Thanks for building my faith in that.
M
Michael68
Guest
First of all, the Watchtower is extremely anti-Catholic and a real waste of time. I have talked with these people and read their literature and have concluded that I won’t waste time, except for this brief message of warning, on them
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Logically
Guest
Well they used to believe just that!
JW’s celebrated Christmas and birthdays until the 1920’s! The cross was on the WT until about then.
(The Trinity was clearly not a Bible teaching from the start however and wasn’t taught by the church until hundreds of years after Jesus - The burden of proof lies with those who teach it, not with those who don’t.)
Yet when the JW’s came out and changed their belief on these things, it was along with extensive evidence. (They didn’t just say, lets change that for a lark)
Example. They published articles and *explained in great detail the evidence that December 25 wasn’t the birthday of Jesus and the customs and celebrations that go with it were of pagan origin.
*So, sincere ones accepted that and changed without their faith shattering. Faith is based on evidence after all.
(the ridiculous alternative would be to continue to believe something that you now know is false
)But here I think it gets funny: At the time the JW’s brought out their evidence, the main churches cried out: " Wrong! Jesus was born on 25 December and all the customs are Christian! (there was a Christmas tree in the manger and Santa Claus arrived just after the shepherds
) We will continue celebrating this because the JWs evidence is flawed and they are deciving people!" Ok.But now, - everyone knows Decemebr 25 and the customs are all pagan! Any encyclopedia will tell you that. - Yet (here is the ironic bit) the churches now say: *“Yes, yes. We know it is based on pagan celbrations, but it doesn’t matter because of the following excuses…”
*
And people accuse the JW’s of not being honest!
JW’s are never afraid to change their beliefs if they realise they are wrong. That’s a mark of honesty, not deception.
To keep teaching something after you have realised it is wrong, that is really dishonest.
J
juliamajor
Guest
Who are these wrongdoers? Why expel them instead of helping them? what about mercy and compassion?With respect, You are making a huge differentiation here:
On one hand you say* the regular everyday JW is honest and faith filled*,
but on the other hand you announce the “leaders” are intentionally deceiving and lying!
These “leaders” (as you call them) are just as honest and faith filled as the average JW (more so infact).
They have done the hard yards as volunteer preachers, missionaries and small congregation elders. Having sacrificed decades of their lives for what they genuinely belive to be true, (average JW characterics on steroids) they have gradually been given more and more (unpaid) responsibility until they are now in the group that oversees the entire organisation. (and now work more than full time, still unpaid, in caring for the hugh Bible teaching organisation)
At what point in this process did they transform from being genuine, honest, faith filled and generous - to being wicked, liars and selfish deceivers?
(Imagine this ridiculous scene:* “Come in and sit down Brother Smith. Well, you quit your high paying career and have spent 35 years full time teaching the Bible and helping congregations in the third world becuase you are so convinced what the JW’s teach is the truth.
Its time we told you the men in this room made it all up and it is an elaborate hoax to mislead the sort of people you have dedicated your life to help. Would you like to become a part of the hyrarchy that justifies all our falsehoods? We have a vacancy.!” *
How is it that all these average JW’s are honest and faith filled (who expell wrongdoers from their congregations) when their leaders are evil liars and decievers?
Wouldn’t those wicked traits of their leaders filter down to the congregations?
Please explain how this all works.
how about love.?
who are these wrongdoers? what terrible thing have they done to be expelled, shunned, disenfranchised from their fellows? did the ask to many questions? were they seen with non JWs? did they contradict those in the Watchtower? those perfect ones , ones of the 144,000 .
I’ve been around a lot of JWs, had some as “friends”, as much of a friend as they can be with one of the unchosen , I have seen the organization destroy marriages, families that didn’t conform to the JW view… and I’ve seen a lot leave. the trouble is that you are not allowed to think, or read or interact with anyone or a anything that is not Watchtower approved.
my friend has been married for many years to a JW for many years. he berated her and preached at her for years, trying to"convert her", she never did and won’t leave him or convert. She went to a very good Bible study and learned how to defeat JW doublespeak.
she is a good strong Catholic woman, with the patience greater than Job, who really wasn’t that patient. if it was me - i would have left or hit him with a frying pan:thumbsup:
L
Logically
Guest
L
Logically
Guest
The 144,000 are not perfect. Jesus instructions to expell unrepentant wrong doers (as mentioned in my last post) was to ones who may have been of those 144,000.
Logically, they can sin aswell and would suffer the same discipline if they do.
What does your church do if members break God’s commands?
M
Michael68
Guest
M
Michael68
Guest
The JWs claim Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael! This alone should make anyone flee this this false system
L
Logically
Guest
Logically;14003880:
Wow! That is a change of subject.
Here is a link to our official explaination and the scriptures that makes us think so:
jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/
Have a look and see what conclusion you come to.
M
Michael68
Guest
Michael68;14003891:
Have a look and see what conclusion you come to.Wow! That is a change of subject.
Here is a link to our official explaination and the scriptures that makes us think so:
jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/
I’ve seen all I need to see in the literature your door knockers hand out. There is no explanation for this error.
L
Logically
Guest
Logically;14003928:
Ok then.
J
juliamajor
Guest
actually what you’ve said is a lot of horse hockey. this hang up with holidays and stuff is really silly. hate to tell you but many things in everyday use came from pagans. if you are concerned with all those pagan things than get rid of the days of the week, (gosh all those pagan god names) and start calling them and months of the year…you can maybe start naming them after Russel, rutherford, miller etc. you get the idea. then the obsession with blood- that’s very pagan. the Jews were not the only culture to associate blood with life, power ,sanctity. it was quite common the importance of blood in worship within pagan society.Israelites, knowing no other way,adopted and adapted. it became something much better and more profound than the rites of polytheism.it was the only way they knew how to honor God. But they knew YHWH did not eat, or had to be fed by that sacrifice. they knew HaShem has no face or form. Same with Passover… Passover was adopted and adapted from pagan feast dealing with bringing in the lambs, a feast for the shepherds. along with thanksgiving festival for thw wheat - the farmers feast;. again it became much greater and more important. even the places of worship were modeled closely after the Canaanite shrine .the horns on the altar,in canaan look remarkably like the Israelite version…Well they used to believe just that!
JW’s celebrated Christmas and birthdays until the 1920’s! The cross was on the WT until about then.
(The Trinity was clearly not a Bible teaching from the start however and wasn’t taught by the church until hundreds of years after Jesus - The burden of proof lies with those who teach it, not with those who don’t.)
Yet when the JW’s came out and changed their belief on these things, it was along with extensive evidence. (They didn’t just say, lets change that for a lark)
Example. They published articles and *explained in great detail the evidence that December 25 wasn’t the birthday of Jesus and the customs and celebrations that go with it were of pagan origin.
*So, sincere ones accepted that and changed without their faith shattering. Faith is based on evidence after all.
(the ridiculous alternative would be to continue to believe something that you now know is false
But here I think it gets funny: At the time the JW’s brought out their evidence, the main churches cried out: " Wrong! Jesus was born on 25 December and all the customs are Christian! (there was a Christmas tree in the manger and Santa Claus arrived just after the shepherds
But now everyone knows Decemebr 25 and the customs are all pagan! Any encyclopedia will tell you that. - Yet (here is the ironic bit) the churches now say: *“Yes, yes. We know it is based on pagan celbrations, but it doesn’t matter because of the following excuses…”
*
And people accuse the JW’s of not being honest!
JW’s are never afraid to change their beliefs if they realise they are wrong. That’s a mark of honesty, not deception.
Xmas is also one of those big bugaboos you all like to push. but it is just that.
those same theories about Christian holidays you espoused are the same things atheists quote! the problem is most of it is outdated propaganda from secularists in 19th and 20th century,who were trying to discredit Christianity. Archaeolgists say they calculated the feast of the annunciation counted nine months and got December. Xmas was not celebrated early in the church but Easter was…Again a garbage can of rubbish that says that Easter was from some goddess named Estrea or ostrea or something like that. the problem is that no such 'goddess exists- just in the fevered mind of protestant , who pushed this as a mode of anti- Catholicism.(it’s good you want to keep those old traditions!) Anyway , what is commonly called Easter is known in the church as the Paschal feast.in many non English speaking countries they keep that -therefore you have “Pasch”, “Pasqua” etc. why we got stuck with Easter is beyond me and I never found a suitable answer. but it shows how much baloney some people believe because it suits their agenda. I’ve said it many times , that sometimes you got stop being a turtle and stick your head out. the world is more than just one group.
J
juliamajor
Guest
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