JW returns...

[HolyInnocent]

adelore, Yellowbird is right… they are not permitted to accept stuff from us… they are taught not to ever accept literature. Part of why they travel in twos is to make sure they don’t. You have done your best to be charitable and to open her eyes, now you need to turn it over to God… the HS is the only one who can change her heart.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The same JW lady I posted about returned today. She brought another lady with her. I was busy taking down my Christmas things when they arrived. I invited them in. She started with a Scripture reading after we talked a bit, then she started to hand me the Watch Tower and Awake Mag.

I smiled and said, “Oh wait a minute I have something for you too.” I went and got a Catholic Mag. and also someone last night posted about the King James Bible from back in 1611, so I went to the links, printed off the information, knowing I’d give it to my JW lady. (you know how the king james Had the “seven missing book” in it back then.)

I handed the Catholic Mag to her friend as she had her hands full with her Bible open, and her JW mags in her other hand. I was ready for her to give it back to me, I just knew that was comming, I would have been shocked, if she would have kept it.

She looked at the cover and polietly said, “Oh I don’t want to take your only mag.” I smiled and said, “It’s not the only one I have, I have 20 more, please feel free to take it.” Meanwhile she had handed me her JW mags. Then she says, “No really I can’t, I Wouldn’t read it anyway, because I KNOW the Truth.”

I looked at her and said, “Oh I’m not trying to convience you to become Catholic, I just thought you’d enjoy learning how we see things, so you could understand me more.” She then handed me back the Catholic Mag, and again says, "NO, I wouldn’t read it anyway. I KNOW the Truth. " She was a little huffy about it.

I then shocked her and handed her back her mags and said, “I thought we were just exchanging mags and trying to learn about each other, but since you feel that way, then here I won’t take these ones either. If that’s how you feel, that you’re not wanting to know what I beleive to understand me, then I don’t need these, because I LIVE the Truth through the Catholic Church.”

Her mought dropped open and then I said, “I’m sorry but I have to get back to work now, you be safe out on the roads.” and I walked them to the door and opened it. And I told them both very nicely to have a nice day, and I shut the door behind them.

My thoughts are these right or wrong but they are still my thoughts. For months I’ve tried being nice to this lady, yes I’ve even taken her mags. So today, I thought since I had a Catholic Mag, I had ordered it and I had ordered 20 copies so I could give them away. I knew before I even gave it to her that she wouldn’t accept it, but I had hopes that since I had been taking hers she would have taken mind. Even if she had no intention of reading it…by all means she should have taken it…goodness how do the JW’s hope to win anyone over, if they themselves can’t/won’t learn how others believe?

I mean after all if two groups are against each other, the wisest thing to do is find out what the other side thinks or feels, then you know how to approach them.

You can get more with understand and a good listening ear, (especially if the other party respects you as a person and is polite and listens) than you can by being stuborn and refusing to even hear what the persons thoughts are that You knocked on My Door. I ddint seek her out.

If she comes again, and I’m sure without a doubt she will, I’m just going to flat out tell her that I’m not intrested in what the Watch Tower has to say and that I really would rather she not come back.

Thank you for letting me ramble…

You handled that very nicely. Well done. :clapping:

 

[maximus]

Hi Adelore,

I can identify with you; I dated a lovely JW for a couple months. At the time I really knew little of my faith, so when I first encounter their material I was shocked and overwhelmed. I was impressed about how much she knew about the Bible and her commitment to her faith. After talking to a priest he told me to be a good example and lent some of me his seminary books on history and I learned about the church fathers. I am grateful for her having made me take my faith seriously and to continuously learn about it. I learned a lot about the JWs, it also flowed into my understanding of the mindset of rabid anti-catholic fundamentalists.

When ever you encounter such hate filled groups like JWs, fundamentalist anti-Catholics, or Atheist and lacking charity no matter how persuasive their arguments can be, just take a step back and look into the materials from fabulous organizations like Catholic Answers and EWTN they always have a better counter argument and there are always charitable. Imagine if our Catholic parishes had a system similar theirs you would study as a group every monthly copy of this Rock; not a bad idea.

Gotta run to mass with my family, God bless all.

 

[T_More]

"So let me get this right, God would allow a lie (Catholic teaching) to exist for some 1800 years until your guy came along with the truth I mentioned something like this to her, but only I said, "over 2,000 years and it wasn’t until Russle started their Religion before they existed.

She informed me that No, their Religon was one of the First Wittness back when Jesus walked the earth. Now this is the Very first time I had heard that from a JW. She said it wasn’t Russle who started them, that **their Religioin was one of the First Wittness **to Jesus. I guess this is a new teaching by the Watch Tower now. As over the years I’ve never heard this from Any JW.

Actually this is not all that new. I remember hearing this around the time I left about 15 years ago, specifically at one of their district conventions (their large, once a year gatherings). It’s really an absurd line of reasoning. The International Bible Students (they later changed their name to JW’s) when founded, believed alot of things that were more in line with most Protestant groups then and today. Then, they believed Christ dies on a Cross, everyone had a heavenly hope (they just believed 144,000 would reach a higher realm of heaven), etc, etc.

In response to their bible being the oldest, it’s interesting to note that during the first half of their existence they used the KJV and the American Standard in their ministries. So, at least in the first half of their existence, they used a much older and more correct version than what they use now.

Adelore, the only way to make head way yourself, in addition to of course relying on the HS to soften her heart, is to get them to look at the beginings of their own religion. This is tough, since they are told not to read any of their early publications. But, I feel this is the best way to get them to make progress. They first must question their own sects origins. Where it came from, who Russell was, how he reached his wild conclusions and so forth. The timing is probably very good right now, as they have recently “adjusted” their stance on their cornerstone belief on the 1914 generational doctrine teaching and I suspect that there will be quite a few that will start questioning the WTS. Hope this helps.

 

[adstrinity]

Adelore, the only way to make head way yourself, in addition to of course relying on the HS to soften her heart, is to get them to look at the beginings of their own religion. This is tough, since they are told not to read any of their early publications. But, I feel this is the best way to get them to make progress. They first must question their own sects origins. Where it came from, who Russell was, how he reached his wild conclusions and so forth. The timing is probably very good right now, as they have recently “adjusted” their stance on their cornerstone belief on the 1914 generational doctrine teaching and I suspect that there will be quite a few that will start questioning the WTS. Hope this helps.

Wait, wait, wait. I knew they cannot accept any literature from the people they witness to, but, they’re told not to read any of their earlier publications? Seriously? How is that justified? REALLY?!!!

 

[T_More]

Wait, wait, wait. I knew they cannot accept any literature from the people they witness to, but, they’re told not to read any of their earlier publications? Seriously? How is that justified? REALLY?!!!

Yes. Really. They are “strongly discouraged” from reading the early publications, ie the pubs from Russell and early Rutherford tenures as leaders of the religion. It’s considered “old light” by them. From their perspective, it makes sense, as there so many teachings that are totally opposite from what they teach now that it would lead to some serious confusion and doubt. But really, isn’t that the point?

 

[Vasian]

You are “casting your pearls before swine”.
Let it go. You will never convince any of them to accept anything in printed form especially in front of their “brothers and sisters” as they would be “turned in” as it were.
Nonetheless, If you are that interested in getting any information into their hands you will be more successful in doing so in private.
Be it via an an email address, and linking them to their own old, and many times weird writings or that of the Catholic Church, or by a mailing address.
Most of them are in so much fear of what the Church may expose to them about their faith that they will never look at anything.
Keep in mind that if their entire family is in the WTS and they were to step out, they wil lose all of their family as they will be disowned even by their husbands, wives, and children.
That is one very powerful reason to not read anything except what is authorized/accepted by the WTS.

 

[adstrinity]

Yes. Really. They are “strongly discouraged” from reading the early publications, ie the pubs from Russell and early Rutherford tenures as leaders of the religion. It’s considered “old light” by them. From their perspective, it makes sense, as there so many teachings that are totally opposite from what they teach now that it would lead to some serious confusion and doubt. But really, isn’t that the point?

“Strongly discouraged.” What does that mean? Will they be shunned or disfellowshiped? Will they be passive-agressively mocked? What will happen? AND, if they DO read these things, surely there is some theological explination or damage control of how to make concord of this discord.

I was taken aback with, “old light,” but, this does make sense because if they can recieve revelation almost 2000 years after Christ, what’s to stop them from constantly updating it…

 

[T_More]

You are “casting your pearls before swine”.

Somewhat true, Vasian, but somewhere along the line we had a pearl put before us, right?

Keep in mind that if their entire family is in the WTS and they were to step out, they wil lose all of their family as they will be disowned even by their husbands, wives, and children.
That is one very powerful reason to not read anything except what is authorized/accepted by the WTS.

**Alas, tis true. The fear factor keeps most from ever taking that first step. **

 

[T_More]

“Strongly discouraged.” What does that mean? Will they be shunned or disfellowshiped? Will they be passive-agressively mocked? What will happen? AND, if they DO read these things, surely there is some theological explination or damage control of how to make concord of this discord.

This would depend on the elders of the particular congregation. All these are possibilites that you mention. The damage control is to tell them not to read it because they know that once someone does, they’ll possibly see the “man behind the curtain”. I know, I’m here aren’t I?

I was taken aback with, “old light,” but, this does make sense because if they can recieve revelation almost 2000 years after Christ, what’s to stop them from constantly updating it…

Bingo! They have and they do keep updating. This is how they cover their tracks. (I was going to say cover something else, but you get the idea.

 

[agent_grey]

Sad isn’t it.

They deny that the son is God almighty. That isn’t much of a big deal as a blasphemy against the son can be forgiven but they deny that the Holy Spirit is the Almighty God. I am not so sure there is anyway back on that one.

 

[jlhargus]

Oh I forgot to mention we talked about the King James Bible, as I handed her the computer print out of the information on it, that the King James Bible back in 1611 did have the books of the Apocrypha in 1611. I also asked her if she knew that the New Testament did have reference’s to the Apocrypha. She said, no it doesn’t, as I handed her the papers, I said, well here’s the proof, you may look it up for yourself.

She did take the computer print outs that I gave her, but not before she asked “What website it came from.” When I showed her that it wasn’t from a “Catholic Website” she was then willing to take it. The other lady was interested in it too. Then after that was when the Catholic Mag was given back.

Hmmm…now that I think of it, maybe if/when she does come back I should be patient one more time…because I’d like to know, what she thought about the computer print outs.

I’m so glad that I can vent my stress on here and get advice before…she shows up again. I pray the Lord will give me more patience.

JL: I would be supprised if those computer printouts were not thrown away without being read.

Since she would not read your material I would ask her to leave all her material just inside your door, for safe keeping, except for her bible. Then suggest that you and she study the bible only, for 1 hour, each month she comes. Start with Matthew 1:1 or whatever book. You read the first chapter from your bible, have her read the next chapter from her bible. Continue till you have read the entire book, then choose another book.

If there is anything either wishes to bring out in those chapters do so. Then continue with the following chapters for 1 hour. The next month continue from were you left off. I doubt she would do this as they are not allowed to read the scriptures alone. If she agrees that would be great at lest she would be exposed to real scripture and not just WT out of context verses.

 

[jlhargus]

JL: TMore and Vasian

I would love to hear more about your journey with the WT. For instance, how did you get there? what convinced you? How long did you stay? What brought you out, was it over a long period and many things or one quick thing? Had you ever studied scripture before you became JW? Why and how did you come back to the Catholic faith or other? Did you ever miss the Church at times when you were JW? Did you find it difficult to believe any church after you lost your belief in the WT? Do you still struggle with certain things? As a JW did you ever read the bible on your own or were you even allowed? When you teach a home bible study, do you use the bible of WT books that tell you what the bible says? Ok I’ll stop with the questions. You might have to start another line, I think your info would be very interesting and informative.

 

[maximus]

Like jhargus I would be interested in TMore and Vasian’s journeys; however, I understand that their journey has probably been wrought with much pain for both of you.

I attended quite a few of JW magazine studies and had their Bible study. I knew little of my faith then and they got to me, but I could never buy into Christ not being divine. Christianity makes no sense unless Christ is divine. In my area the JWs rarely appear maybe once every 2 years, and when they do they do they seem to be quite in a hurry.

One thing I learned is that one needs to have good apologetics materials in areas where you interact with many JWs, because if at some time you accepted some of their theology and became acquainted with their small circle the pull back towards them can be very strong.

To me the JW’s system seems to be the logical evolution of the extreme anti-Catholic and end times fundamentalist Evangelicals out there. I have a neighbor that belongs to a Philipino cult (Iglesia ni Cristo) who has an identical theology to the JWs; I always joke that I would love to see them going back and fourth since their theologies are nearly identical, but different leaderships.

God Bless,

 

[T_More]

JL: TMore and Vasian

I would love to hear more about your journey with the WT. For instance, how did you get there?

I was a “cradle JW”. It’s all I knew.

what convinced you?

**I’m assuming you are asking what convinced me that the WTS was at one time right for me? See above. **

How long did you stay?

**Long enough. Let’s just say a long time. Many years. **

What brought you out, was it over a long period and many things or one quick thing?

For me, it was over a period of time (years). I had noticed some inconsistencies in the bible versus what they taught over the years, such as certain scriptures that clearly show the divinity of Christ, one faith=one hope, etc. But the process of leaving was accelerated by the internal issues of the organization. When I really looked at the history of the religion, how it got started, who Russell was, the flip flopping of doctrine, false predictions (prophesying) over the years, etc, etc., that really gave me pause. The total resistance to openly talking about doctrine was a real turn off as I got older. And I came to view the disfellowshipping arrangement as completely unloving. There came to be a very long laundry list for me that I simply could no longer ignore.

Had you ever studied scripture before you became JW?

Studying scripture as I got older is what lead me out of it in the end. That, and seriously studying history, especially early Christianity.

Why and how did you come back to the Catholic faith or other?

I haven’t gone to another religion. Yet. But I’ll give you 3 guesses where my studying is leading me.

Did you find it difficult to believe any church after you lost your belief in the WT?

To a point, but over time, I got over that. JW’s are taught to not believe in anything outside the WTS. When their religious belief is gone, there is a certain sense for many of questioning if there really is a god. That’s a very gradual, seductive process that I could feel myself creeping in after initially leaving. Thankfully, some events in my life recently have led me to believe that the HS wants me wake up and get on with it and stop stalling with my spirituality.

Do you still struggle with certain things?

**In terms with WTS doctrine vs RCC doctrine? Sure, it’s polar opposite, so I’m learning all the time. That’s why I’m here. But, I’m getting there. I just visited a local parish about RCIA last week. If you had told me after I had left the WTS that I would’ve done that, I wouldn’t have believed it. **

As a JW did you ever read the bible on your own or were you even allowed?

Personal bible study was/is encouraged, but the WTS defines for you what the (their) bible teaches and believes through their publications and there is no gray area.

When you teach a home bible study, do you use the bible of WT books that tell you what the bible says?

**Home bible studies were actually studies of one of the WTS publications, with their translation of the bible to back up their teachings in that publication. **

I hope this helps. I think Vasian can add a great deal more than I.

 

[adelore]

TMore & Vasian,

It’s people like you that give me hope, that just maybe, somehow, the Holy Spirit will help me plant the seed to her and others like her in the JW’s.

When I gave her the computer printout, both her, the other lady and I stood side by side and they were looking at it and reading some of the info. As I pointed to where the New Testament indeed did refer back to the 7 omited books. They both looked at it, (the scriptures that did refer back) and said, “I’ve never seen that before.” And the lady thats been here before, said, I’ve studied Bibe History and I’ve never seen anything like this, I’ll have to check this out."

True, maybe they will “pitch” the computer printout…but just maybe, even if not now…could be years from now…just maybe the seed was planted…to at least look. I know they both said they had the internet…so one can only hope. I’ll keep praying.

At 19 I left the Catholic Church, I’m now 52. That’s a lot of years to be away from the Catholic Church. I had studied with another JW for 7 years. When I was told (among other things) that I needed to get rid of my pictures of Jesus and other “Catholic” things, (as having these things in my home was a form of idolarty) it got me to thinking…if it’s so wrong to have pictures of Jesus in my home, because after all I don’t worship the picture, why was it ok for them to have Pictures in their Publications and books of Jesus ect. Because I was told that "No one " knew what Jesus looked like and having pictures of him was wrong.

When I asked why was it ok to have pictures of Him in their publications and their many books, since it was wrong to have pictures of Jesus. I was told, that was different, the pictuers in the books and magz. were to help people “focus” and bring a mental picture of Jesus to mind. That just didn’t make sense.

Then when they pushed me to “leave/divorce” my husband, because he was an “Unbeliever towards the JWs” (after all I was unequally yoked, they said) and that I could always get “remarried” to a JW. I about flipped. That ended a 7 year study and friendship.

 

[jlhargus]

T_More:
JL: Thanks T More, that was interesting. I will be praying for you. If I can help with any questions let me know.

 

[jlhargus]

TMore & Vasian,

It’s people like you that give me hope, that just maybe, somehow, the Holy Spirit will help me plant the seed to her and others like her in the JW’s.

When I gave her the computer printout, both her, the other lady and I stood side by side and they were looking at it and reading some of the info. As I pointed to where the New Testament indeed did refer back to the 7 omited books. They both looked at it, (the scriptures that did refer back) and said, “I’ve never seen that before.” And the lady thats been here before, said, I’ve studied Bibe History and I’ve never seen anything like this, I’ll have to check this out."

True, maybe they will “pitch” the computer printout…but just maybe, even if not now…could be years from now…just maybe the seed was planted…to at least look. I know they both said they had the internet…so one can only hope. I’ll keep praying.

At 19 I left the Catholic Church, I’m now 52. That’s a lot of years to be away from the Catholic Church. I had studied with another JW for 7 years. When I was told (among other things) that I needed to get rid of my pictures of Jesus and other “Catholic” things, (as having these things in my home was a form of idolarty) it got me to thinking…if it’s so wrong to have pictures of Jesus in my home, because after all I don’t worship the picture, why was it ok for them to have Pictures in their Publications and books of Jesus ect. Because I was told that "No one " knew what Jesus looked like and having pictures of him was wrong.

When I asked why was it ok to have pictures of Him in their publications and their many books, since it was wrong to have pictures of Jesus. I was told, that was different, the pictuers in the books and magz. were to help people “focus” and bring a mental picture of Jesus to mind. That just didn’t make sense.

Then when they pushed me to “leave/divorce” my husband, because he was an “Unbeliever towards the JWs” (after all I was unequally yoked, they said) and that I could always get “remarried” to a JW. I about flipped. That ended a 7 year study and friendship.

JL: I think you are right about time and planting seeds that’s really all we can do and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit. Who know’s what furit your seed may bring forth in some years.

 

[Heavens_Flowers]

When I was a child I visited a JW meeting I guess there called. I don’t remember the teachings thank goodness as I was fairly young but one thing that struck me as odd that I’d like to ask what is the purpose of women, wearing long dresses to church, and having to sit on opposite sides of the church from the men, even there own family members. Also another thing that I found odd was the women were not allowed to speak. Maybe ex JW could clear this up for me please as honestly I know nothing about WT and that. This thread has been extremly informative and I’d love to understand, this religion to better pray for them, to find the truth. Even if that truth doesn’t happen to lie with our Catholic Church.

 

[Vasian]

When I was a child I visited a JW meeting I guess there called. I don’t remember the teachings thank goodness as I was fairly young but one thing that struck me as odd that I’d like to ask what is the purpose of women, wearing long dresses to church, and having to sit on opposite sides of the church from the men, even there own family members. Also another thing that I found odd was the women were not allowed to speak. Maybe ex JW could clear this up for me please as honestly I know nothing about WT and that. This thread has been extremly informative and I’d love to understand, this religion to better pray for them, to find the truth. Even if that truth doesn’t happen to lie with our Catholic Church.

Are you sure it was the WTS? None of what you described sounds familiar at all.