JW stopped by my house......

[Bengoshi]

Bob, Bob, Bob, you are so much fun!:

Okay, Let’s discuss the transfiguration. We read:

Referring to the transfiguration, the apostle Peter wrote: “Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19) That figurative Daystar, or “bright morning star,” is the glorified Jesus Christ. (Revelation 22:16) He ‘rose’ in 1914 when God’s Kingdom was born in heaven, marking the dawn of a new era. (Revelation 11:15) In the transfiguration vision, Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus, conversing with him. Whom do they foreshadow?

Since Moses and Elijah shared in Christ’s glory, these two faithful witnesses must represent those who rule with Jesus in his Kingdom.

The understanding that Jesus has corulers is in harmony with a visionary foregleam of the enthroned Messiah that the prophet Daniel was granted. Daniel saw “someone like a son of man” receiving “an indefinitely lasting rulership” from “the Ancient of Days,” Jehovah God. But note what Daniel is shown shortly thereafter. He writes: “The kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.” (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27) Yes, more than five centuries before the transfiguration, God revealed that certain “holy ones” would share in Christ’s royal grandeur.

Who are the holy ones in Daniel’s vision? It is with reference to such individuals that the apostle Paul says: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (Romans 8:16, 17)

The holy ones are none other than Jesus’ spirit-anointed disciples. In the Revelation, Jesus says: “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Numbering 144,000, these resurrected ‘conquerors,’ along with Jesus, will rule over the entire earth.—Revelation 3:21; 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3, 4; 1 Corinthians 15:53.

Why, though, are anointed Christians represented by Moses and Elijah?

The reason is that such Christians, while still in the flesh, do a work similar to that performed by Moses and Elijah. For example, they serve as witnesses, even in the face of persecution. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 8:1-8; Revelation 11:2-12) Like Moses and Elijah, they courageously expose unchristian religion while exhorting sincere people to give God exclusive devotion. (Exodus 32:19, 20; Deuteronomy 4:22-24; 1 Kings 18:18-40)

**Also, some have noted that Moses represents the Law (soon to be fulfilled in Jesus) and Elijah represents the Prophets (also fulfilled in Jesus) **

Lastly, Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place a “vision” **Notice too **what was said about Peter "(Luke 9:32-33) … Peter and those with him were weighed down with sleep; but when they got fully awake they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33*And as these were being separated from him, Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here, so let us erect three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li′jah,” **he not realizing what he was saying. **

Again, Jesus said “Tell the VISION to no one”

Whoa! What a terrible exegesis, er…I mean EISEGESIS! The WTS is reading INTO the text what is not there at all! What’s with 1914? It means NOTHING! The Bible just clearly says that Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah. Please do not go on speculating about its “hidden” meaning when it is not explicitly stated in Scripture. We do not even know what they talked about.

As to 2 Peter 1:19, some have understood “more sure” as an affirmation that the prophetic writings of the OT are even “more sure” than Peter’s spectacular personal experience at the Transfiguration, thereby underscoring the complete reliability of written Scripture. Others have understood that Peter’s experience of the Transfiguration provides confirmation of OT prophecy, making the already-sure prophecy of the OT even “more sure” as confirmed by the experience of the Transfiguration. In either case, believers are admonished to pay attention to the certainty of the prophetic word. In the contrast between “we have” and “you will do well,” Peter is apparently emphasizing that the interpretation of the apostles (“we”) is to be regarded as authoritative for the church (“you”). Day dawns and morning star both refer to the second coming. The day of the Lord is the day of final judgment and salvation, as the OT often teaches (Isa. 13:6, 9; Ezek. 13:5; Joel 1:15; Amos 5:18, 20). Jesus’ second coming will not only be an objective event in history, it will also rise in your hearts as the full light of Christ’s presence transforms the hearts of his church to perfect purity.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Dave, can you please answer my questions

thanks

 

[Rose5]

One time when a JW group of women knocked at our door, I opened it, listened to a few of their scripted statements, and then asked them if any Catholics had knocked on their
door’s trying to convince them of the Catholic faith.

 

[Bengoshi]

One time when a JW group of women knocked at our door, I opened it, listened to a few of their scripted statements, and then asked them if any Catholics had knocked on their
door’s trying to convince them of the Catholic faith.

And then what happened?

 

[Javl]

Dave, can you please answer my questions

thanks

Don’t be in a rush. Sit down, have a cup of coffee and relax. I’m still waiting for him to answer mine too. It’s been a while , so don’t hold your breath.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Don’t be in a rush. Sit down, have a cup of coffee and relax. I’m still waiting for him to answer mine too. It’s been a while , so don’t hold your breath.

yeah, I’ve just had past experience with Jehovah’s witnesses regarding these questions…they tend to try and dodge them

Peace

 

[Javl]

yeah, I’ve just had past experience with Jehovah’s witnesses regarding these questions…they tend to try and dodge them

Peace

Yep, that they do. I get the stock answer “we’ll check it out and get back to you”. Of
course, they never do. They wouldn’t know the truth even if Jesus told them. I’m sorry
to be so bold and coarse and not charitable, but that’s the way you have to be with all
cults.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jon_Hus]

FYI,

Be very suspicious of anyone who claims to be a Jehovah’s Witness on this site. If their Elders, MS, PO, DO, CO or any other fellow JW finds out that they are on an “apostate” web site they will be punished. Punished as in kicked out of the organization and shunned by JW family and friends.

A really good book and worth the time investment for anyone (Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants) to read on the Watchtower is Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. This gentleman was at the highest levels of the Watchtower (on the Governing Board), when he got the bright idea to actually read and study the Holy Bible. Not only that, he compared the teachings of the Watchtower to the Bible and had as they say “questions”. One thing let to the other and end result was he was kicked out.

While the book is from the 1980s, it really gives you a feel for what goes on inside the Watchtower and in the process you get an idea of what they teach and believe. No active JW will admit to reading it, nor will they allow a copy of the book in their house. If you meet a JW, he/she will not allow you to use the book to ask questions. Just like what happened to my screen namesake, the JWs would have burned Raymond Franz at the stake and removed his books under penilty of law if they could have legally.

 

[Javl]

FYI,

Be very suspicious of anyone who claims to be a Jehovah’s Witness on this site. If their Elders, MS, PO, DO, CO or any other fellow JW finds out that they are on an “apostate” web site they will be punished. Punished as in kicked out of the organization and shunned by JW family and friends.

A really good book and worth the time investment for anyone (Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants) to read on the Watchtower is Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. This gentleman was at the highest levels of the Watchtower (on the Governing Board), when he got the bright idea to actually read and study the Holy Bible. Not only that, he compared the teachings of the Watchtower to the Bible and had as they say “questions”. One thing let to the other and end result was he was kicked out.

While the book is from the 1980s, it really gives you a feel for what goes on inside the Watchtower and in the process you get an idea of what they teach and believe. No active JW will admit to reading it, nor will they allow a copy of the book in their house. If you meet a JW, he/she will not allow you to use the book to ask questions. Just like what happened to my screen namesake, the JWs would have burned Raymond Franz at the stake and removed his books under penilty of law if they could have legally.

Yes, you are right. But there are certain ones who are well trained and “strong in the
faith” ( ? ) who are selected to deal with the likes of us. They are closely monitored and
if they make any errors they are quickly and quietly removed ( and re-trained ).

As for Franz, yes he was on the board and succeeded Nathan Norr as president until
as you say, he learned the truth. I also met Franz at Bethel in Brooklyn at the time. He
was a nice gentleman, but at the time, off the wall. I praise the Lord that he succumbed
to the proddings of the Holy Spirit and learned the truth before it was too late. It should
also be known that there are many at the high levels of the WBTS that do not accept
many of its doctrines. They remain there mostly for the position of power and “prestige”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bengoshi]

FYI,

Be very suspicious of anyone who claims to be a Jehovah’s Witness on this site. If their Elders, MS, PO, DO, CO or any other fellow JW finds out that they are on an “apostate” web site they will be punished. Punished as in kicked out of the organization and shunned by JW family and friends.

A really good book and worth the time investment for anyone (Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants) to read on the Watchtower is Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. This gentleman was at the highest levels of the Watchtower (on the Governing Board), when he got the bright idea to actually read and study the Holy Bible. Not only that, he compared the teachings of the Watchtower to the Bible and had as they say “questions”. One thing let to the other and end result was he was kicked out.

While the book is from the 1980s, it really gives you a feel for what goes on inside the Watchtower and in the process you get an idea of what they teach and believe. No active JW will admit to reading it, nor will they allow a copy of the book in their house. If you meet a JW, he/she will not allow you to use the book to ask questions. Just like what happened to my screen namesake, the JWs would have burned Raymond Franz at the stake and removed his books under penilty of law if they could have legally.

Thanks bro! I’ll look for a copy of this book in our bookstores!

 

[Bob4BVM]

Yep, that they do. I get the stock answer “we’ll check it out and get back to you”. Of
course, they never do. They wouldn’t know the truth even if Jesus told them. I’m sorry
to be so bold and coarse and not charitable, but that’s the way you have to be with all
cults.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

"even if Jesus told them "
Thank you for giving me somethings to laugh at, I am worn to tears by djdave’s STRANGE twists of scripture. I could respond to his latest “answers” to my questions on the Transfiguration, etc, but what would it gain us, the guy is l-o-s-t. Did you notice, now he is backing up his answers with language from the NWT. yikes.!!!

Cults ? you say ? Is JW / WTS a cult ??? Why didn’t someone tell me !!!
All joking aside, it is a sad case.
As an adult convert to The Church, I can only wish and pray for such people to discover the amazing riches they are missing by not knowing about the Sacraments , especially the Holy Mass.
Sadly, these things remain undreamed-of by many people who truly believe they have God all figured out. Until you really submit to Him by opening your heart like a little child, you will never know. Some things it seems are only knowable by personal experience.
I ask many I meet—What if the Catholic Faith and the event of the Holy Mass are true…if you knew they were true, would you want it ? Considering that possibility, doesn’t it seem a bit dangerous to ignore Sacrament ?

 

[Bob4BVM]

Thanks bro! I’ll look for a copy of this book in our bookstores!

Thanks from me too !
This site has lots on the book and much from ex-JW’s.
watchtowerinformationservice.org/books-book-reviews/crisis-of-conscience-by-raymond-franz/

Amazon has the book for less than $10, just ordered a copy.
amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675044

You can read parts of the book at either of these sites

djdave, if you PM me your address, I will send you a copy, maybe you can bring it to your next JW meeting, you’d be the hit of the night !

 

[Bengoshi]

djdave, if you PM me your address, I will send you a copy, maybe you can bring it to your next JW meeting, you’d be the hit of the night !

:clapping: Hahahahaha! I’m dying of laughter!

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]

:clapping: Hahahahaha! I’m dying of laughter!

[/SIGN]

Not of laughter…

(Jeremiah 25:30-33) 30*“**And as for you, you will prophesy to them all these words, and you must say to them, ‘From on high Jehovah himself will roar, and from his holy dwelling he will give forth his voice. Without fail he will roar upon his abiding place. A shout like that of those treading [the winepress] he will sing out against all the inhabitants of the earth.’ 31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

(Ezekiel 7:1-9)

Ps 91:14

May Jehovah direct you all to heed the warning at Rev 18:4. I am through with this site.

 

[cides23]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Not of laughter…

(Jeremiah 25:30-33) 30*“**And as for you, you will prophesy to them all these words, and you must say to them, ‘From on high Jehovah himself will roar, and from his holy dwelling he will give forth his voice. Without fail he will roar upon his abiding place. A shout like that of those treading [the winepress] he will sing out against all the inhabitants of the earth.’ 31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all **flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

(Ezekiel 7:1-9)

Ps 91:14

May Jehovah direct you all to heed the warning at Rev 18:4. I am through with this site.

we will keep you in our prayers that you may come to know the saving LOVE of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ, that he loves you and wants a relationship with you!!! to make his dwelling in you… peace!

 

[Jon_Hus]

Yes, you are right. But there are certain ones who are well trained and “strong in the
faith” ( ? ) who are selected to deal with the likes of us. They are closely monitored and
if they make any errors they are quickly and quietly removed ( and re-trained ).

In theory maybe. In the best case situation, the road to re-fellowship would be very rough and bumpy. Out of the millions (six or so) JWs world wide there may be literally a handfull of appologist that could do what you suggest. I’m 99% certain the JW visitors to this site are posers or “disfellowshipped ones” who hate all religions and are just stirring up the pot. I say this based of the quality of their rebutts. The cost to an active JW caught on any non-JW religious web site would shock you.

Many Catholics if they were to be honest would admit that they are not students of the Bible. There are exceptions. But even so, if a conservative protestant wants to make a point of scripture and in so doing goes back to the Greek, they may not agree but Catholics will at least listen. JWs are on the other hand are not allowed to study the Bible in the orig languages or in the native language without using WT published study materials.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, by the way is the largest private publishing company in the world. They are not, contrary to their claims, the largest distributer of Bibles. That honor goes to the Gideons International (which gives away almost 80 million Bibles and NTs per year free of charge) and the United Bible Societies which gives out another 30 or 40 million/year.

My neighbors in NJ in the 1970s worked at Bethel. We grew up together and then their Mom sucked them into the cult. They have wasted their lives. A study of the WT is very interesting, at the same time depressing. Jval, what were you doing at Bethel that allowed you to meet Franz? Have you read his book C of C? If you have, would you agree with me that it is strange that a member of the GB and co-author of the “Aids to…” book had to research the WT for information to write his book? The WT theology is complicated and twisted in my opinion.

 

[heathernoel]

I was wondering why we have the number of JW that we do. I know they aren’t allowed or encouraged to mingle with non JW’s outside of door to door service. Interesting how they come to a Catholic site.

I am praying for their conversion. I don’t think Christ had that kind of oppression in mind! God gave us a life to live, not fear!

Peace Be With You,
Heather

Dave, you are in my prayers. If something has happened like a disfellowship and you feel lost, I urge you to seek comfort in the arms of our Blessed Mother, who knows all too well the pain of Her Son. She is a source of comfort, and her intercessions are second to none

 

[Bob4BVM]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Not of laughter…

(Jeremiah 25:30-33) 30*“**And as for you, you will prophesy to them all these words, and you must say to them, ‘From on high Jehovah himself will roar, and from his holy dwelling he will give forth his voice. Without fail he will roar upon his abiding place. A shout like that of those treading [the winepress] he will sing out against all the inhabitants of the earth.’ 31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all **flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

(Ezekiel 7:1-9)

Ps 91:14

May Jehovah direct you all to heed the warning at Rev 18:4. I am through with this site.

NWT again.

Dave, you can count on my prayers for you, whatever our differences.
I would only ask, that you open your thoughts to what other Christian faiths profess and consider the possibility, in your heart, that just maybe it is TRUE.

I don’t care who wins these arguments, I am more interested in winning the soul—and yes, my friend, you DO have one, it lives immortally, your greatest gift from God. Please do not let anyone steal that from you !

Praying you may see the freedom that Christ wants you to have in this life, that is why He came, and died for us. If you were the only person on earth, He still would have done it, just for you. As strange as you may think catholic beliefs are, know this: Jesus does not look down and see the crowd, He looks down and sees YOU.

 

[Bob4BVM]

I was wondering why we have the number of JW that we do. I know they aren’t allowed or encouraged to mingle with non JW’s outside of door to door service. Interesting how they come to a Catholic site.

I am praying for their conversion. I don’t think Christ had that kind of oppression in mind! God gave us a life to live, not fear!

Peace Be With You,
Heather

Dave, you are in my prayers. If something has happened like a disfellowship and you feel lost, I urge you to seek comfort in the arms of our Blessed Mother, who knows all too well the pain of Her Son. She is a source of comfort, and her intercessions are second to none

You are right on Heather, especially in recommending Our Lady. Her influence in my regard was a huge surprise for me when I was coming into the RCC.
I see you are a ‘candidate’…Wonderful !
Do yourself a huge favor and read the book by Vinney Flynn: “Seven Secrets of the Eucharist” . Might sound like a corny title, but…
I have read MANY books on the Faith. This is in my Top 3, maybe even #1 !
A sort read, but what an eye-opener on the Mass

---

 

[Bengoshi]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Not of laughter…

(Jeremiah 25:30-33) 30*“**And as for you, you will prophesy to them all these words, and you must say to them, ‘From on high Jehovah himself will roar, and from his holy dwelling he will give forth his voice. Without fail he will roar upon his abiding place. A shout like that of those treading [the winepress] he will sing out against all the inhabitants of the earth.’ 31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all **flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

(Ezekiel 7:1-9)

Ps 91:14

May Jehovah direct you all to heed the warning at Rev 18:4. I am through with this site.

Dave, real Christians all over the world reject that heretical and diabolical NWT of the WBTS. Please don’t even use it anymore. Moreover, again, the passage is taken out of context. The prophecy applies specifically to the Jewish people during the the time of the divided kingdoms. Do not fall into the deception of the evil one. Open your eyes and your heart to the truth of the Word of God. A lot of people found God by just studying the Bible for themselves. Do not just depend on what the WT tells you to believe. Read the books we recommended in this thread, especially the ones on Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. Read Chgurch History as well. There are 2 good books that I would recommend from both Catholic and Protestant authors: “A Concise History of the Catholic Church” by Thomas Bokenkotter and “Church History in Plain Language” by Bruch Shelley.

I’ll pray that the Holy Spirit would lead you to the Truth, which is Jesus Christ Himself (John 14:6).