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mackbrislawn
Guest
Exactly, and when we are Christ-like we are witnessing for Christ!Not to be splitting hairs, but I believe that “Christian”, means to be “Christ-like”
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Bob4BVM
Guest
Excellent response Adelore,
But brace yourself for a long reply from JW’s, it amazes how many words they can use to try to undo a few simple, direct statements from Jesus
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Bob4BVM
Guest
Vasian,
Wow, you must have an interesting perspective on all this judging by your faith experience.
Maybe you can shed some light for us on how a person gets sucked into the WTS stuff !
That remains my biggest question of JW’s, especially those who were once Catholics, as Dave professes.
I just cannot see how that could happen !
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Auriel
Guest
I feel a twinge of guilt when I look back at all the things we used to do in our late teens and early 20’s, to annoy the door to door witnesses.
It was a small boring town, you could time their door to door rounds. We actually got together and developed strategic plans for our OPERATION CODE: FUN with JW"S night. Yep, we had a code word.
An older woman said we should be ashamed of ourselves until she agreed to them having a study at her place and it began to freak her out. She asked for our help after that.
Even though there is no way I could ever accept the doctrine I must say most were well mannered and on average appeared to have high moral standards.
My best friend in school was a JW. I behaved around her family. LOL
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It was a small boring town, you could time their door to door rounds. We actually got together and developed strategic plans for our OPERATION CODE: FUN with JW"S night. Yep, we had a code word.
An older woman said we should be ashamed of ourselves until she agreed to them having a study at her place and it began to freak her out. She asked for our help after that.
Even though there is no way I could ever accept the doctrine I must say most were well mannered and on average appeared to have high moral standards.
My best friend in school was a JW. I behaved around her family. LOL
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Rence
Guest
It’s not their fault really. For some reason, they were caught at a weak moment, when turning to the JW faith seemed like the right thing to do. They get brainwashed and sucked in. Then when they actually start trying to use their brains and question things, they are threatened with “disfellowship” which is a risk of losing all their family and friends, like a caste system, they become untouchables.Excellent response Adelore,
But brace yourself for a long reply from JW’s, it amazes how many words they can use to try to undo a few simple, direct statements from Jesus
Their scripture interpretations were done by unqualified people with no training, and it actually looks like rather than being mis-translated and mis-interpreted, they were really changed to suit the teachings instead of vice versa. When JW’s finally realize this, they aren’t allowed to question it to their elders.
When JW’s find out that their religous teachings were changed over time, and contradict themselves, they aren’t allowed to question it. When JW’s find out that the many “prophecies” didn’t come true, they aren’t allowed to question it. Their “elders” have a tight grip on the congregation, almost owning them.
Naturally, I’d be terrified too. It takes strength of character to question your teachings so that you’re believing with knowledge and common sense.
I don’t doubt, by the hateful posts started by JW’s here in this forum, that this is probably a training ground for them…after I get angry with their attacks, and calm down, I feel really bad that they’re hurting so much.
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Vasian
Guest
You pretty much nailed it:thumbsup:
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Vasian
Guest
I have had an interesting ride!
I think Dave is cut-n-pasting a lot from the WTS publications.
The one amusing statement of his (or that of the WTS) that jumped out at me was this:
“Often” can refer to something done only once a year, especially when done for many years."
Insofar as the statement is not necessarily false, it is no support whatsoever for the claim that the memorial should be celebrated only once a year or that in fact it was only celebrated only once a year.
This alone is pure speculation by the WTS, nothing more, nothing less, yet they have made it a church doctrine.
And, please keep in mind that though most all JW’s attend the yearly communion, only those who profess to be of the “Anointed Class” can partake of the bread and wine.
So, only a little over 8000 people actually partake of the sacraments.
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Bob4BVM
Guest
Hmmm, 8000 ?I have had an interesting ride!
I think Dave is cut-n-pasting a lot from the WTS publications.
The one amusing statement of his (or that of the WTS) that jumped out at me was this:
“Often” can refer to something done only once a year, especially when done for many years."
Insofar as the statement is not necessarily false, it is no support whatsoever for the claim that the memorial should be celebrated only once a year or that in fact it was only celebrated only once a year.
This alone is pure speculation by the WTS, nothing more, nothing less, yet they have made it a church doctrine.
And, please keep in mind that though most all JW’s attend the yearly communion, only those who profess to be of the “Anointed Class” can partake of the bread and wine.
So, only a little over 8000 people actually partake of the sacraments.
Anything to do with the 144,000 max limit for Heaven ?
BTW your cut-n-paste explanation makes sense, I have seen much of his content in WTS pub’s. But I WAS very impressed with his long posts, I am a lousy-slow typist.
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billsabre
Guest
but of course, the 8000 is the number of people of the 144,000 who are still alive, except the jws believe that a few of the 144000 may have lost their salvation and therefore that would leave an opening to a very few select individuals who may become part of the 144000. also in reply to when Jesus said for ALL to eat… the ALL he was speaking about would have been part of the 144000. im just sayin…
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Vasian
Guest
This last ±8000 has not changed in number for many years now.
Up until about 1996 this last “generation” is of those born on or before 1914.
They are dying off rapidly but the 8000 number never drops hardly at all, and has not ever in the last 20 or so years.
This is why the WTS had to stop teaching their long standing doctrine about how “this generation will not pass away before the end of this system of things…”
They now claim that ALL JW’s are “of this contemporary generation…”
How convenient
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adelore
Guest
After having studied with JW’s for 7 years, most of djdaves answers I expect. And truely I would be “Surprised and Shocked” if he didn’t have such long and drawn out answers. He has been Very Well Taught by the JWs. Without a doubt he spends much time looking all these answers up.
I too have/had most of the books that djdave is looking the answers up in, until the other day, that is I got rid of the books. Why keep something that is teaching all these un-truths?
I admire djdave in a lot of ways, for one, he is faithful to his faith, (even if it is the wrong one.) However, I do notice a lot that he Skips or Avoids answering certain questions. If he can’t find the answer in the JW material…he just let’s it slide, thinking no one will notice. He also can’t answer a questions with out using JW material. This also tells me that djdave doesn’t really know His faith as well as he protrays. For anyone who truely knows their faith and believes it doens’t have to go searching in such “depth” for the answers. Djdave needs to look it all up, then type in all the answers word for word from the JW books and mag. This is Not knowing your faith.
A person who Truely knows their faith, lives their faith and believes their faith, can explain things in “Everyday” language for all to understand. Anyone can look up answers…type in long, long, lines of Scripture…one verse after another…but this in No Way, proves a thing.
If a person can’t explain their faith in simple everday terms like Jesus did, then that person Just Plain and Simple Does not know their faith and truely doesn’t make a good Wittness to the Religion they **claim **to believe in so much. Long pages of Scripture shows a “weakness” in that faith. For if a person doesn’t know the answer in “laymen” terms, they can’t really be living that faith to the fullest, they just want to “appear” like they do, with the long long list of Scripture Verses.
Hint: When you stand before Jesus on judgement day, you either know the answers from your heart, or you don’t. You don’t get to take the “boat load” of JW material with you and say, “I’ll have to get back with you on that…”
I too have/had most of the books that djdave is looking the answers up in, until the other day, that is I got rid of the books. Why keep something that is teaching all these un-truths?
I admire djdave in a lot of ways, for one, he is faithful to his faith, (even if it is the wrong one.) However, I do notice a lot that he Skips or Avoids answering certain questions. If he can’t find the answer in the JW material…he just let’s it slide, thinking no one will notice. He also can’t answer a questions with out using JW material. This also tells me that djdave doesn’t really know His faith as well as he protrays. For anyone who truely knows their faith and believes it doens’t have to go searching in such “depth” for the answers. Djdave needs to look it all up, then type in all the answers word for word from the JW books and mag. This is Not knowing your faith.
A person who Truely knows their faith, lives their faith and believes their faith, can explain things in “Everyday” language for all to understand. Anyone can look up answers…type in long, long, lines of Scripture…one verse after another…but this in No Way, proves a thing.
If a person can’t explain their faith in simple everday terms like Jesus did, then that person Just Plain and Simple Does not know their faith and truely doesn’t make a good Wittness to the Religion they **claim **to believe in so much. Long pages of Scripture shows a “weakness” in that faith. For if a person doesn’t know the answer in “laymen” terms, they can’t really be living that faith to the fullest, they just want to “appear” like they do, with the long long list of Scripture Verses.
Hint: When you stand before Jesus on judgement day, you either know the answers from your heart, or you don’t. You don’t get to take the “boat load” of JW material with you and say, “I’ll have to get back with you on that…”
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Rence
Guest
Adelore, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Remember that RC’s focus is not relentlessly trying to disprove someone else’s faith with scripture duels. When RCs congregate, their focus is on worship and prayer. We don’t focus on disproving other people’s religous teachings, we concentrate on our own. Therefore, we (I) need to look up stuff at times because I simply do not need to know the bible like the back of my hand to follow the rules of the RC church.
When I was a young child I attended catechism classes. When I was in grammar school I attended a RC school, then went on to a RC high school, and even graduated from a RC university, and that was over 15 years ago. After my last theology class, the only scriptures I read were the three at Sunday Mass. I learned it, I’ve lived it, there’s no reason for me to frantically comb through scriptures in an effort to prove someone else’s religion erroneous. I didn’t need to. I lived in a predominantly RC and Jewish (and even Muslim) city, and people didn’t go door to door trying to prove you wrong.
Of course I know my faith, I’ve been living it long enough, but in order to articulate it, sometimes I have to look it up…
I guess I just find it petty that some religions work so hard to comb though scripture to fight with people of different religions and try to discredit their beliefs. I believe they would do well to just concentrate on their own religion and on God. God should be their focal point, IMOHO.
When I was a young child I attended catechism classes. When I was in grammar school I attended a RC school, then went on to a RC high school, and even graduated from a RC university, and that was over 15 years ago. After my last theology class, the only scriptures I read were the three at Sunday Mass. I learned it, I’ve lived it, there’s no reason for me to frantically comb through scriptures in an effort to prove someone else’s religion erroneous. I didn’t need to. I lived in a predominantly RC and Jewish (and even Muslim) city, and people didn’t go door to door trying to prove you wrong.
Of course I know my faith, I’ve been living it long enough, but in order to articulate it, sometimes I have to look it up…
I guess I just find it petty that some religions work so hard to comb though scripture to fight with people of different religions and try to discredit their beliefs. I believe they would do well to just concentrate on their own religion and on God. God should be their focal point, IMOHO.
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Frost
Guest
Though it might be fun to throw arguments in eachothers heads, I really don’t think this is the way to win JW for Christ… I would rather show them God’s love, inviting them in for tea/coffee, and trying to make friends with them. We should answer questions they might have about Christian beliefs, but avoid arguing. Easier said than done, perhaps, but worth a try…
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T_More
Guest
I’m an ex-JW, I was one for 30 years. I know dj dave truly believes what he believes with all his heart. As long as he uses his version of the bible and clings to the WT publications, there will be no common ground found with him. I know, been there done that. Unlike dj dave, I was a cradle JW and have been to dozens and dozens of congregations across the country, many, many of their assemblies and district conventions and have visited the headquarters in Brooklyn, NY many times. There are alot of very good people in the religion that truly love God. But…they will not pull the rafter out of their own eye when examining their religions own beginnings and history, but are very good at discrediting everyone elses. And they should be good at it, they spend all of their meetings training themselves on how to do just that. I did. That’s what the “Service Meeting” was all about as well as the “Theocratic Ministry School”. They are, in essence, sales meetings, to teach the members on how to get the WT material into others hands. There is not a real sense of “worship”, but rather, a reinforcement of WT teaching when they gather together.
They don’t like talking about Russell and what he believed and taught, and again, for good reason. JW’s came from the Millerite movement, which also gave birth to the Seventh Day Adventists. Russell himself thought HE was the “faithful and discreet slave”. He made multiple predictions about the physical coming of Christ’s Kingdom BEFORE 1914. When 1914 came and went, his view changed, that it was a coming in a way that could not be physcially seen. Hard to prove he was wrong if it was something that could not be seen…
After Russell died in 1916, “Judge” Rutherford seized control of the organization and violated the last wishes of Russell and who he wanted to take over after he was gone. Much of the doctrines were changed. Russell, for example, believed that Christ died on a cross, but Rutherford did not like “the way the cross looked” and therefore the torture stake theory took root. Witnesses did indeed celebrate Christmas well into Rutherfords tenure (there is one photo of Rutherford and others celebrating it complete with tinsel and all the decorations), but he changed his mind on that as well, in addition to no birthdays, holidays, etc, etc. Rutherford himself predicted that Armageddon would come in 1941, and another failed prediction came and went. During his tenure, the WT had published an article in the WT magazien prophesying that “Millions now living will never die”, yet another failed attempt to guess at something that we are not meant to know. The constant reverting to the scripture of “The light getting brighter and brighter” seems to satisfy those that are still within the organization.
The need to come up with their own bible stemmed from the fact that in their ministries in the early 20th century, JW’s would come across other denominations that knew the bible very well and would very capabley refute what the JW’s were teaching. The JW’s used the KJV and the New American for the first 50 years of their existence, so when these hurdles came up, it became a problem. History has shown that when someone takes on the task of re-interpreting the bible, it’s because it’s not telling them what they want to hear. When you’re using a bible that contradicts your doctrinal teachings, how can there not be issues? If they are glad to use the ones of others when attempting to convert, why come up with your own version at all? If the truth you profess is there in all of them, why bother? I’ll let others draw their own conclusions.
1975 was another major hiccup, with the WT citing the fine examples of those that sold their homes and cars in anticipation of the coming of Armageddon that year. It came and went and of course, nothing happened. No culpability on the WT’s part.
I’ll never forget an elder that was giving a discourse one Sunday that said word for word, “It is not your job to think, the WT thinks for you.” I looked around and was amazed at how this did not raise anyone’s eyebrows.
If the WT is the truth, their own NWT tells them via Paul that to keep putting the truth to the test. Do they? Not to me. It’s always a one way street when exchanging spiritual thoughts. Dave, why are you on this site? Would the society approve of you being here? You and I both know the answer to that.
They don’t like talking about Russell and what he believed and taught, and again, for good reason. JW’s came from the Millerite movement, which also gave birth to the Seventh Day Adventists. Russell himself thought HE was the “faithful and discreet slave”. He made multiple predictions about the physical coming of Christ’s Kingdom BEFORE 1914. When 1914 came and went, his view changed, that it was a coming in a way that could not be physcially seen. Hard to prove he was wrong if it was something that could not be seen…
After Russell died in 1916, “Judge” Rutherford seized control of the organization and violated the last wishes of Russell and who he wanted to take over after he was gone. Much of the doctrines were changed. Russell, for example, believed that Christ died on a cross, but Rutherford did not like “the way the cross looked” and therefore the torture stake theory took root. Witnesses did indeed celebrate Christmas well into Rutherfords tenure (there is one photo of Rutherford and others celebrating it complete with tinsel and all the decorations), but he changed his mind on that as well, in addition to no birthdays, holidays, etc, etc. Rutherford himself predicted that Armageddon would come in 1941, and another failed prediction came and went. During his tenure, the WT had published an article in the WT magazien prophesying that “Millions now living will never die”, yet another failed attempt to guess at something that we are not meant to know. The constant reverting to the scripture of “The light getting brighter and brighter” seems to satisfy those that are still within the organization.
The need to come up with their own bible stemmed from the fact that in their ministries in the early 20th century, JW’s would come across other denominations that knew the bible very well and would very capabley refute what the JW’s were teaching. The JW’s used the KJV and the New American for the first 50 years of their existence, so when these hurdles came up, it became a problem. History has shown that when someone takes on the task of re-interpreting the bible, it’s because it’s not telling them what they want to hear. When you’re using a bible that contradicts your doctrinal teachings, how can there not be issues? If they are glad to use the ones of others when attempting to convert, why come up with your own version at all? If the truth you profess is there in all of them, why bother? I’ll let others draw their own conclusions.
1975 was another major hiccup, with the WT citing the fine examples of those that sold their homes and cars in anticipation of the coming of Armageddon that year. It came and went and of course, nothing happened. No culpability on the WT’s part.
I’ll never forget an elder that was giving a discourse one Sunday that said word for word, “It is not your job to think, the WT thinks for you.” I looked around and was amazed at how this did not raise anyone’s eyebrows.
If the WT is the truth, their own NWT tells them via Paul that to keep putting the truth to the test. Do they? Not to me. It’s always a one way street when exchanging spiritual thoughts. Dave, why are you on this site? Would the society approve of you being here? You and I both know the answer to that.
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Vasian
Guest
Howdy, T. More
Excellent post that gives a nice look into the “society”.
Excellent post that gives a nice look into the “society”.
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T_More
Guest
Thanks, Vasian. I have found that in order for JW’s to really look hard at other religions, they first must look hard at their own, from beginning to end. Most are just not willing to do that, thus making it very hypocritical on their part to be critical of others. The beginnings of the religion and it’s short history are quite dubious. Getting into scriptural interpretations is a fruitless excercise, IMO. There is always an excuse and no real personal answers on what they believe themselves. It’s hard for them to even acknowledge errors or irregularaties within their own organization. For example, when comparing John 1 and the “Word was God” issue, their own “Kingdom Interlinear” publication translates it as “Word was God”, but then their NWT translates it the way we all know them to translate it. Not surprisingly, the KI isn’t really used by them as much anymore, even though it has been revised as recently as 1985. I’ll let others deduce the reasons why.Howdy, T. More
Excellent post that gives a nice look into the “society”.
The way to get JW’s to listen you here is to get them to look first at the WT’s history. When that is done, THEN a logical, amiable discussion might be had. But like I said, easier said than done. Afterall, people like myself have “fallen away” and have turned my back on “the truth”, so I must be trying to deceive them.
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adelore
Guest
I guess I should have mentioned in my first post, that this same lady had been comming to my house for months. She has been in my house several times for coffee. She also knew the lady before her that I had studied with for 7 years, as she had been here with her during that 7 years a few times.
The bottom line here with JW’s is that they want to show you “their” material, teach you their religion and they don’t want to discuess anything about what you believe except to Prove to you that it is wrong.
Answer questions that they have about Christian beliefs? Believe me they don’t have any questions about your Christian beliefs, and they aren’t about to ask, because they don’t want to know. (they are trained for this.) But they do want to share their beliefs with you.
You are right when you say it’s easier said than done. I have tried very hard to be patient and such, after all** I studied for 7 years **with the one lady, once a week.
So when this other lady stopped by…that’s when I offered the two/religion Bible study. A couple of weeks ago she stopped by and handed me their magz. (I was sick so she didn’t come in.) And guess what she handed me, all magz. with Anti-Catholic articles in it. Articles showing how the Catholic Religion was Wrong and False. Not to mention they call the Catholic Church and the Pope the Whore of Babaloyn!
When I offer to give her Catholic Pamplets, she can’t take them. They aren’t allowed to. After all when you are brainwashed to believe that the Catholic Religion is The Whore of Babaloyn and the Anti-Christ, it’s a no go.
I keep praying for them, that some day, they will take a Good Look at their own relgion. Most of them won’t.
If you bring it up to them, they just say, that they have become more aware of the Truth as time has passed and that is why their “teaching” has changed over the years.
If you’d like to try your style at winning them over as Friends and answering their questions on you being a Christian/Catholic, over coffee or tea, by all means contact the Watch Tower Society or your local Kingdom Hall and I can promise you they’ll be on your door step within two weeks or less. (I am not saying this to be scarstic, but if we can show just one of them the truth…what a blessing in Heaven that would be.) Let us know if you can get them to listen to you as I’m all for new ideas…
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adelore
Guest
oops, I ment to say a Christian/Luthern. Sorry my mistake.
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]mackbrislawn;6069404]No, JW isn’t mentioned in the New Testament. It’s in the Old Testament, and applies to them. Christians are Christ’s witnesses. That’s what Christian means.[/SIGN]
OF WHOM WAS JESUS A WITNESS? REV 1:5
OF WHOM WAS JESUS A WITNESS? REV 1:5
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dj_dave
Guest
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