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Vasian
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Vasian
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Something seems to be wrong with the forum program.
I didn’t even make that last post!
I didn’t even make that last post!
D
dj_dave
Guest
Whoops! I forgot one more thing: A Catholic Tract states regarding Mary’s conception…But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
It goes on to say:
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
This is clever thinking–no, it is ‘wishful thinking’ in order to support your “the Churches” claim.
the analogy is completely unscriptual. No matter how many times you hear it on the radio!
[SIGN]adelore;6074044]After having studied with JW’s for 7 years, most of djdaves answers I expect. And truely I would be “Surprised and Shocked” if he didn’t have such long and drawn out answers. He has been Very Well Taught by the JWs. Without a doubt he spends much time looking all these answers up.
[SIGN]I too have/had most of the books that djdave is looking the answers up in, until the other day, that is I got rid of the books. Why keep something that is teaching all these un-truths?[/SIGN]
NOW let’s continue…What about scriptural referrences for praying to Mary or other saints? There is absolutely no scriptural justification for that
Your apologists reason “ If I ask you to pray for me…isn’t that the same as asking a Saint in heaven to pray for me". Reasoning that somehow they are much closer they are and are in the very presence of God?—NO it is not! You are praying to a Saint YOU are not Praying to your friend, you are simply asking him… Jehovah has reserved the avenue of prayer to himself and no one else. The entire Scriptural record testifies that Jehovah is the One to whom prayer should be directed (Ps 5:1, 2; Mt 6:9), that he is the “Hearer of prayer” (Ps 65:2; 66:19) and has power to act in behalf of the petitioners. At Acts 7:59
Stephen clearly distinguished Jesus from Jehovah, for the account says that he saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Also, these circumstances were exceptional. The only other case of such an utterance being directed to Jesus is that of the apostle John, who similarly addressed Jesus directly when he saw Him in vision.—Revelation 22:16,20.
Although Christians today properly direct all their prayers to Jehovah God, they too have unshakable faith that Jesus is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) As it did Stephen, so faith in Jesus’ ability to raise his followers from the dead can help and sustain us in times of trial.
Jesus had taught his followers that the Father authorized him to raise others to life. (John 5:26; 6:40; 11:25, 26) So it was proper for Stephen to petition Jesus over this matter. He was not praying-- he was looking at Jesus in a vision.
Is Purgatory taught in the Bible? Nowhere! You think it is at (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) . . .Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble,…stop…QUESTION:, Do you really think he is speaking of literal “gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble”?.. No? Then why would the fire be literal? He is talking about ‘firery tests’
Compare (1 Peter 4:12) 12 Beloved ones, do not be puzzled at the burning among YOU, which is happening to YOU for a trial, as though a strange thing were befalling YOU.
Divorce? (Matthew 19:9) 9 I say to YOU that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
I know you teach this means “unlawful marriage” but that is not even the tip of the iceberg
when it comes to understanding this word. When a mate commits adultery the other mate can choose to scripturally divorce the other–though the Bible encourages “forgiveness”…
Also, the word means relations with another person or animal.
Transliteration:** porneia**
Phonetic Spelling: (por-ni’-ah)
Short Definition: fornication
In the Greek text por•nei′a occurs in the following 25 places: Mt 5:32; 15:19; 19:9; Mr 7:21; Joh 8:41; Ac 15:20, 29; 21:25; 1Co 5:1, 1; 6:13, 18; 7:2; 2Co 12:21; Ga 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1Th 4:3; Re 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2, 4; 18:3; 19:2.
The related verb por•neu′o, rendered in NW as “practice fornication” or “commit fornication,” occurs in the following eight places: 1Co 6:18; 10:8, 8; Re 2:14, 20; 17:2; 18:3, 9.
More…
It goes on to say:
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
This is clever thinking–no, it is ‘wishful thinking’ in order to support your “the Churches” claim.
the analogy is completely unscriptual. No matter how many times you hear it on the radio!
[SIGN]adelore;6074044]After having studied with JW’s for 7 years, most of djdaves answers I expect. And truely I would be “Surprised and Shocked” if he didn’t have such long and drawn out answers. He has been Very Well Taught by the JWs. Without a doubt he spends much time looking all these answers up.
[SIGN]I too have/had most of the books that djdave is looking the answers up in, until the other day, that is I got rid of the books. Why keep something that is teaching all these un-truths?[/SIGN]
NOW let’s continue…What about scriptural referrences for praying to Mary or other saints? There is absolutely no scriptural justification for that
Your apologists reason “ If I ask you to pray for me…isn’t that the same as asking a Saint in heaven to pray for me". Reasoning that somehow they are much closer they are and are in the very presence of God?—NO it is not! You are praying to a Saint YOU are not Praying to your friend, you are simply asking him… Jehovah has reserved the avenue of prayer to himself and no one else. The entire Scriptural record testifies that Jehovah is the One to whom prayer should be directed (Ps 5:1, 2; Mt 6:9), that he is the “Hearer of prayer” (Ps 65:2; 66:19) and has power to act in behalf of the petitioners. At Acts 7:59
Stephen clearly distinguished Jesus from Jehovah, for the account says that he saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Also, these circumstances were exceptional. The only other case of such an utterance being directed to Jesus is that of the apostle John, who similarly addressed Jesus directly when he saw Him in vision.—Revelation 22:16,20.
Although Christians today properly direct all their prayers to Jehovah God, they too have unshakable faith that Jesus is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) As it did Stephen, so faith in Jesus’ ability to raise his followers from the dead can help and sustain us in times of trial.
Jesus had taught his followers that the Father authorized him to raise others to life. (John 5:26; 6:40; 11:25, 26) So it was proper for Stephen to petition Jesus over this matter. He was not praying-- he was looking at Jesus in a vision.
Is Purgatory taught in the Bible? Nowhere! You think it is at (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) . . .Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble,…stop…QUESTION:, Do you really think he is speaking of literal “gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble”?.. No? Then why would the fire be literal? He is talking about ‘firery tests’
Compare (1 Peter 4:12) 12 Beloved ones, do not be puzzled at the burning among YOU, which is happening to YOU for a trial, as though a strange thing were befalling YOU.
Divorce? (Matthew 19:9) 9 I say to YOU that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
I know you teach this means “unlawful marriage” but that is not even the tip of the iceberg
when it comes to understanding this word. When a mate commits adultery the other mate can choose to scripturally divorce the other–though the Bible encourages “forgiveness”…
Also, the word means relations with another person or animal.
Transliteration:** porneia**
Phonetic Spelling: (por-ni’-ah)
Short Definition: fornication
In the Greek text por•nei′a occurs in the following 25 places: Mt 5:32; 15:19; 19:9; Mr 7:21; Joh 8:41; Ac 15:20, 29; 21:25; 1Co 5:1, 1; 6:13, 18; 7:2; 2Co 12:21; Ga 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1Th 4:3; Re 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2, 4; 18:3; 19:2.
The related verb por•neu′o, rendered in NW as “practice fornication” or “commit fornication,” occurs in the following eight places: 1Co 6:18; 10:8, 8; Re 2:14, 20; 17:2; 18:3, 9.
More…
V
Vasian
Guest
Boo!
D
dj_dave
Guest
dj dave;
More…
And finally regarding the word soul…if you would be consistent in your rendering of the word in your Bible you would easily see that it no way implies immortality or something that exists outside the physical body
There is absolutely no scriptural justification for that! Consider:
*** Rbi8 pp. 1573-1574 4A “Soul”—A Living Creature, Human or Animal; Life as an Intelligent Person; Other Uses
In the Hebrew Scriptures the Hebrew word ne′phesh occurs 754 times, first in Ge 1:20. The New World Translation consistently renders it “soul” and in each case it proves understandable in the light of its context. The use of this one Hebrew word in many different contexts helps us to ascertain the basic idea inherent in the word as the Bible writers used it, namely, that it is a person, an individual, or a lower creature; or, the life that a person or an animal enjoys as such. This is totally different from what the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans religiously and philosophically called a soul.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures the Greek word psy•khe′ occurs by itself 102 times, first in Mt 2:20. This includes Eph 6:6 and Col 3:23, where it is in the expression “whole-souled.” Additionally it is used in many compound Greek words such as in Php 2:2, 19; 1Th 5:14. The New World Translation consistently renders psy•khe′ as “soul.” This uniform rendering by the same English word proves very enlightening as to how the inspired writers used psy•khe′ and what properties they ascribed to it.
To aid in understanding the uses of “soul,” we have grouped below, under various headings, texts where “soul” occurs.
Animals are souls
Ge 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 2:19; 9:10, 12, 15, 16; Le 11:10, 46, 46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9.
A living person or individual is a soul
Ge 2:7; 12:5; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15, 18, 22, 25, 26, 26, 27, 27; Ex 1:5, 5; 12:4, 16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2, 27; 5:1, 2, 4, 15, 17; 6:2; 7:18, 20, 21, 25, 27; 17:10, 12, 15; 18:29; 20:6, 6; 22:6, 11; 23:29, 30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27, 28, 30; 19:18, 22; 31:35, 35, 40, 40, 46; 35:30; De 10:22; 24:6, 7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25, 30; 16:24; 19:2, 15; 25:25; 27:7, 7, 9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41, 43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14.
The creature soul is mortal, destructible
Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19, 20; 37:21; Ex 12:15, 19; 31:14; Le 7:20, 21, 27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30, 31; 19:13, 20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11, 15, 30; De 19:6, 11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13, 14; 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37, 37, 39; 11:11; 20:3, 9; Jg 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25, 27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28, 28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23; Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3.
Life as an intelligent person
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13; Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22; 2:11, 25; 1Jo 3:16.
Soul delivered from Sheol or Hades (“hell”)
Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Ac 2:27.
Dead soul, or corpse
Le 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6, 11; 9:6, 7, 10; 19:11, 13; Hag 2:13.
Soul distinguished from spirit
Php 1:27; 1Th 5:23; Heb 4:12.
God has soul
1Sa 2:35; Ps 11:5; 24:4; Pr 6:16; Isa 1:14; 42:1; Jer 5:9; 6:8; 12:7; 14:19; 15:1; 32:41; 51:14; La 3:20; Eze 23:18; Am 6:8; Mt 12:18; Heb 10:38.
YOU can not deny that the church has borrowed many things from unchristian religious sources… dl.dropbox.com/u/685976/The%20History%20of%20Christmas%20–%20Christmas%20Unwrapped.wmv
web.archive.org/web/20031212061513/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/stauros.htm
religionstinks.xanga.com/669573192/item/
Please listen!…your “church” cannot sanctify these things. You must “quit touching” them (2 Corinthians 6:16-17) . . .” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’”
Do some research–from where was Paul quoting? What was happening at the time where he was quoting from?
I pray Jehovah will “open your Heart” Acts 16:14–Good bye. you will not hear from me again. I hope any new ones visit ALL of my past posts.
More…
And finally regarding the word soul…if you would be consistent in your rendering of the word in your Bible you would easily see that it no way implies immortality or something that exists outside the physical body
There is absolutely no scriptural justification for that! Consider:
*** Rbi8 pp. 1573-1574 4A “Soul”—A Living Creature, Human or Animal; Life as an Intelligent Person; Other Uses
In the Hebrew Scriptures the Hebrew word ne′phesh occurs 754 times, first in Ge 1:20. The New World Translation consistently renders it “soul” and in each case it proves understandable in the light of its context. The use of this one Hebrew word in many different contexts helps us to ascertain the basic idea inherent in the word as the Bible writers used it, namely, that it is a person, an individual, or a lower creature; or, the life that a person or an animal enjoys as such. This is totally different from what the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans religiously and philosophically called a soul.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures the Greek word psy•khe′ occurs by itself 102 times, first in Mt 2:20. This includes Eph 6:6 and Col 3:23, where it is in the expression “whole-souled.” Additionally it is used in many compound Greek words such as in Php 2:2, 19; 1Th 5:14. The New World Translation consistently renders psy•khe′ as “soul.” This uniform rendering by the same English word proves very enlightening as to how the inspired writers used psy•khe′ and what properties they ascribed to it.
To aid in understanding the uses of “soul,” we have grouped below, under various headings, texts where “soul” occurs.
Animals are souls
Ge 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 2:19; 9:10, 12, 15, 16; Le 11:10, 46, 46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9.
A living person or individual is a soul
Ge 2:7; 12:5; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15, 18, 22, 25, 26, 26, 27, 27; Ex 1:5, 5; 12:4, 16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2, 27; 5:1, 2, 4, 15, 17; 6:2; 7:18, 20, 21, 25, 27; 17:10, 12, 15; 18:29; 20:6, 6; 22:6, 11; 23:29, 30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27, 28, 30; 19:18, 22; 31:35, 35, 40, 40, 46; 35:30; De 10:22; 24:6, 7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25, 30; 16:24; 19:2, 15; 25:25; 27:7, 7, 9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41, 43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14.
The creature soul is mortal, destructible
Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19, 20; 37:21; Ex 12:15, 19; 31:14; Le 7:20, 21, 27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30, 31; 19:13, 20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11, 15, 30; De 19:6, 11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13, 14; 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37, 37, 39; 11:11; 20:3, 9; Jg 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25, 27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28, 28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23; Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3.
Life as an intelligent person
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13; Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22; 2:11, 25; 1Jo 3:16.
Soul delivered from Sheol or Hades (“hell”)
Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Ac 2:27.
Dead soul, or corpse
Le 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6, 11; 9:6, 7, 10; 19:11, 13; Hag 2:13.
Soul distinguished from spirit
Php 1:27; 1Th 5:23; Heb 4:12.
God has soul
1Sa 2:35; Ps 11:5; 24:4; Pr 6:16; Isa 1:14; 42:1; Jer 5:9; 6:8; 12:7; 14:19; 15:1; 32:41; 51:14; La 3:20; Eze 23:18; Am 6:8; Mt 12:18; Heb 10:38.
YOU can not deny that the church has borrowed many things from unchristian religious sources… dl.dropbox.com/u/685976/The%20History%20of%20Christmas%20–%20Christmas%20Unwrapped.wmv
web.archive.org/web/20031212061513/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/stauros.htm
religionstinks.xanga.com/669573192/item/
Please listen!…your “church” cannot sanctify these things. You must “quit touching” them (2 Corinthians 6:16-17) . . .” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’”
Do some research–from where was Paul quoting? What was happening at the time where he was quoting from?
I pray Jehovah will “open your Heart” Acts 16:14–Good bye. you will not hear from me again. I hope any new ones visit ALL of my past posts.
R
Rence
Guest
You know, I really don’t mean to be disrespectful, I really don’t. But someone here needs Xanax… BADLY…
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
Right !
When you know it, you just live it. The people see it not because you say anything at all, but by the way you live.
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
But I did have to look this one up to get it right !!!
“Preach the Gospel at all times; and if necessary, use words.” -St. Francis of Assisi
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
Absolutely !
I have offered such, but they have not yet taken me up on it.
I sense in them a hesitance to chance getting too deeply involved with someone who wants to discuss details with them…
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
Wow, I am finnally beginning to understand JWs.
I have to say it does not make me feel good, I’d rather " lose the argumaent & win the soul".
You are right about one thing, I have never once gotten a reply on simple questions to JWs on their personal beliefs. Not from Dave here, not from the people who come to my door.
Lord, I wish I could just TALK to them !
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
That is a very good analogy of Mary’s being saved from sin. Yes she still needed to be saved, & God did it this way.
Why do you think that would be impossible for God to do ???
If you were able to create your OWN MOTHER, wouldn’t YOU make her PERFECT ???
B
Bob4BVM
Guest
You are crumbling Dave, I truly do not want to see you leave like this.
There is a FREEDOM in the heart of Jesus and His mother you may not be able to imagine (or ar afraid to imagine ? )
I wish you would JUST ASK them both. Courage Dave.
“… dear children, why don’t you JUST ASK ?..”
If you ever come to Oregon, let me know, you are welcome at my place.
A
adelore
Guest
DjDave,
I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. But truely, why is it you feel you can “Defend” your faith, point out things you feel are in Error of the Catholic Church and they way we believe and not expect a reaction from me? I am also going to Defend the Church that Christ Started. The Catholic Church, plain and simple that’s the Church Jesus started.
You time after time, bring up scripture to show the JW point of view. Yet, when someone on here shows you a Scripture proving the Catholic Church point of view, you just out right “Twist” what it says. You won’t even talk about it with an open mind.
Not once have you seen me make a post, refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yes , I’ve used a few Scriptures now and then, hoping to “Talk” about what that Scripture says and to get your Own Personel “Thoughts” on it. But every time you come back with tons of more Scripture and Watch Tower Material, trying to Prove a point. Not that I’m opposed to you doing this, but just once it would have been nice to know what You Believe and why.
I have tried to explain, why I believe the way I do, from my heart. I don’t have to “quote” the Catechism of the Catholic Church to do this. Yet, you can’t even answer in simple terms, Why?
I had also asked you (since you said the Catholic Church never taught you) about the name of God. I even asked "didn’t you ever read it in the Bible as you were growning up? I even asked you didn’t you hear it in Catechism Class?
I even asked you about The Watch Tower, and how they have changed their beliefs over the years. Again, no answer from you.
Of course you ingorned all these questions.
I understand you are very firm in your faith with the JW’s, but I don’t understand why you can’t have a simple converstation about these things?
May God Bless you djdave and you seek to find the Truth…
I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. But truely, why is it you feel you can “Defend” your faith, point out things you feel are in Error of the Catholic Church and they way we believe and not expect a reaction from me? I am also going to Defend the Church that Christ Started. The Catholic Church, plain and simple that’s the Church Jesus started.
You time after time, bring up scripture to show the JW point of view. Yet, when someone on here shows you a Scripture proving the Catholic Church point of view, you just out right “Twist” what it says. You won’t even talk about it with an open mind.
Not once have you seen me make a post, refering to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yes , I’ve used a few Scriptures now and then, hoping to “Talk” about what that Scripture says and to get your Own Personel “Thoughts” on it. But every time you come back with tons of more Scripture and Watch Tower Material, trying to Prove a point. Not that I’m opposed to you doing this, but just once it would have been nice to know what You Believe and why.
I have tried to explain, why I believe the way I do, from my heart. I don’t have to “quote” the Catechism of the Catholic Church to do this. Yet, you can’t even answer in simple terms, Why?
I had also asked you (since you said the Catholic Church never taught you) about the name of God. I even asked "didn’t you ever read it in the Bible as you were growning up? I even asked you didn’t you hear it in Catechism Class?
I even asked you about The Watch Tower, and how they have changed their beliefs over the years. Again, no answer from you.
Of course you ingorned all these questions.
I understand you are very firm in your faith with the JW’s, but I don’t understand why you can’t have a simple converstation about these things?
May God Bless you djdave and you seek to find the Truth…
J
Javl
Guest
Why is it that cultists try so hard in quoting scripture to try to prove that the Catholic Church is so wrong ( and mostly quotes out of context )? To me it only shows their falsity and that they are not of God. Didn’t Jesus say to “Love your enemies”? If the Catholic Church is the “enemy”, then where’s their love and understanding???
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
V
Vasian
Guest
JW’s are taught that all others are lost sheep and in need of, “coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth…”Why is it that cultists try so hard in quoting scripture to try to prove that the Catholic Church is so wrong ( and mostly quotes out of context )? To me it only shows their falsity and that they are not of God. Didn’t Jesus say to “Love your enemies”? If the Catholic Church is the “enemy”, then where’s their love and understanding???
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Unfortunately many in there who are angry or have a mis-placed zeal tend to be iron fisted in their ministry work.
ALL baptized JW’s are considered Ministers be they 13 years old or 80 years old.
R
Rence
Guest
I’m not sure that he can do what you’re asking him to do. JW are forbidden to talk about things with people that go against what the WT teaches. And they’re not allowed to question the teachings. They certainly can’t question the things you’ve asked him to question, like the changes in teachings over the years. They’re not supposed to “think” they’re supposed to let the WT do that for them. They’re programmed to convert, and they’re programmed to have the upper hand in the conversation. By reaching deep down within himself, he’s going to make himself vulnerable and remember this is a public forum, if he gets caught, he’ll get in trouble with the elders and that can be a very scary place to be. Questioning your faith can also be a scary place to be if you don’t have a solid foundation, and I’m not sure that brainwashing (conditioning, whatever you want to call it) is solid enough.
And being vicious to Visian is exactly what he doesn’t want to happen to him by his JW family and friends…why he would then do that to Visian is beyond me…I guess he skipped over the “do unto others” part of the scripture reading.
He definitely sounds angry and stressed. I hope he can find some peace with himself. Maybe when he calms down and his mind is quiet, he’ll think about the replies he’s gotten regarding his claims and do a little more research.
V
Vasian
Guest
Can you imagine having your entire family dis-own you, not even speaking to you ever again because you converted to another Christian organization?
If a JW was to do such a thing this is what happens.
Every single person in your family treats you as if you are dead. All of your JW friends treat you as dead as well.
When I converted from Catholic to JW back in 82’ my Catholic family did not dis-own me.
My Catholic friends and others did not dis-own me.
When I was disfellowshiped from the JW’s for debating the 1914 date, and “that generation”, ALL my JW friends and my two JW cousins started treating me, my wife and my children as if we were dead.
If a JW was to do such a thing this is what happens.
Every single person in your family treats you as if you are dead. All of your JW friends treat you as dead as well.
When I converted from Catholic to JW back in 82’ my Catholic family did not dis-own me.
My Catholic friends and others did not dis-own me.
When I was disfellowshiped from the JW’s for debating the 1914 date, and “that generation”, ALL my JW friends and my two JW cousins started treating me, my wife and my children as if we were dead.
T
T_More
Guest
Vasian, I feel for you, because I was in the middle of all that and know EXACTLY what your thoughts and feelings were/are. My mother was unjustly disfellowshipped and it was heartbreaking to watch her go through it.
You don’t have to even be disfellowshipped for this to happen. I have not gone to another religion (yet), but my wife and I have been inactive in the JW faith for years and have lived in the same town, never leaving, and we are basically avoided when we see other JW’s we know in public places. You’d think we were lepers or carry some other disease. We don’t feel bad for ourselves, but for them.
I remember my brother-in-law (a JW) talking with me about how he would not talk to his fleshly brother because he had been DFed. I innocently asked, “Why won’t you at least talk to your brother and tell him you love him and encourage him.” His answer is so typical and I expected it. “I have to choose between God and my brother and I can’t talk to him because God wouldn’t want me to.”
Would God want you to leave your family, fleshly or spiritual, out in the cold? That doesn’t sound like the Christ I read about.
You don’t have to even be disfellowshipped for this to happen. I have not gone to another religion (yet
), but my wife and I have been inactive in the JW faith for years and have lived in the same town, never leaving, and we are basically avoided when we see other JW’s we know in public places. You’d think we were lepers or carry some other disease. We don’t feel bad for ourselves, but for them.I remember my brother-in-law (a JW) talking with me about how he would not talk to his fleshly brother because he had been DFed. I innocently asked, “Why won’t you at least talk to your brother and tell him you love him and encourage him.” His answer is so typical and I expected it. “I have to choose between God and my brother and I can’t talk to him because God wouldn’t want me to.”
Would God want you to leave your family, fleshly or spiritual, out in the cold? That doesn’t sound like the Christ I read about.
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