JWs and Just Wars

[jschwehm]

Hi All:

I thought many of you might find the following article on my website helpful in discussing the issue of war with our JW friends.
Here is the link:

catholicxjw.com/justwars.html

I also want to respond to the New York Times article that our resident JW poster BibleSteve posted. I do not think anyone here denies that members of the Catholic Church fought on both sides of the war in both WWI and WWII. In reality that is not the issue.

The issue is that the Watchtower Society and JWs claim that they were the ONLY religious body to oppose Hitler and the Third Reich. This is just false and there are numerous original sources that prove this. Also, numerous Catholic priests and Catholic lay people as well as Protestant Christians paid for their opposition to the Third Reich with their lives. Included in this is the story of St. Maximillan Kolbe and the famous Lutheran Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer (sp?) whose writings while in prison are quite moving.

Now, the issue I have is not with the individual JWs who went to the Concentration Camps for their faith. I admire their tenacity and their willingness to die for their beliefs rather than support such an evil regime. The issue I have is with the leaders of the Watchtower Society who wrote a letter to Hitler in 1933 giving the impression that they supported the Third Reich so as to avoid being harassed by the German Gov’t of that time. This is documented from original sources which are freely available. In fact, you can call the Watchtower Society and get a copy of the Declaration of Facts if you wish. I will just give you a small quote of what the leaders of the Watchtower Society sent to Hitler in their letter known as The Declaration of Facts:

“The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.’ We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.”

A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High. Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work’s being a menace to the principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who desire righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from carrying it on in this land.

Now Hitler never bought this and in reality this letter it could be argued made matters worse for the JWs and shortly after this letter was received by the German Gov’t they seized control of Watchtower Society property and began persecuting the JWs very badly.

This is in contrast to the Encyclical published by the Vatican in 1937 which was read from every Catholic Church in Germany on the day it was published that was highly critical of the Third Reich.

You can read both of these documents in their entirety at the links below:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

randytv.com/Hitler/document_b.htm

As you read them…ask yourself which document is really standing against Hitler and his regime?

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com

 

[zemi]

Thank you Jeff

 

[dosdog]

1936 January The German government begins a series of trials of members of the religious orders accused of violating the foreign currency laws. Press coverage is hostile to the accused in almost all cases. (Lewy)

1936 January 4 Ambassador Bergen in Rome writes to German foreign minister von Neurath that the Pope is protesting the violations of the Concordat by the Hitler government, and has several times threatened to bring his complaints into the open. It has taken the moderation of Secretary of State Pacelli to prevent a rupture of relations. (Lewy)

1936 September 14 After a majority of the Spanish Catholic hierarchy has sided with General Franco and called for a crusade against Communism, Pope Pius XI gives his blessing to “those who have assumed the difficult and dangerous task of defending and restoring the rights and honor of Church and religion.” (Lewy)

1937 March 14 A papal encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Sorrow) is published, dealing with the condition of the Catholic Church in Germany and condemning Nazi racism.

1937 March 21 Mit brennender Sorge, is read from the pulpits of all Catholic Churches in Germany on Palm Sunday. It has been smuggled into Germany, secretly printed and distributed by messenger throughout the nation. “With deep anxiety and with ever-growing dismay” Pius XI says he has watched the tribulations of the Catholic Church in Germany. The Concordat of 1933 is now being openly violated, and the conscience of the faithful oppressed as never before. True belief in God, the Pope declares, is irreconcilable with the deification of earthly values such as race, people or the state. Important as these are in the natural order, they can never be the ultimate norm of all things. Belief in a national God or a national religion, similarly is a grave error. The God of Christianity cannot be imprisoned “within the frontiers of a single people, within the pedigree of one single race.” (Lewy)

1937 March 22 The Gestapo confiscates all copies of the Pope’s encyclical it can find. Twelve print shops are soon closed and dispossessed without compensation for having printed the encyclical letter. Strong protests are lodged with the bishops and the Vatican. (Lewy)

1937 March 26 The Pope publishes an encyclical entitled Divini Redemptoris, condemning atheistic Communism.

1937 April 12 The German Foreign Ministry sends a note of protest to Papal Secretary of State Pacelli describing the Pope’s encyclical as a call to battle against the leadership of the German state and a grave violation of the Concordat (See March 21). (Lewy)

1937 November 18 A catholic official refuses to allow permission for the Ministry of Ecclesiastical Affairs to consult diocesan files on Jewish conversions and mixed marriages “on grounds of pastoral secrecy.”

1938 September 6 The U.S. Congress passes the Alien Registration Act.

1938 September 7 Pope Pius XI, during a reception for Catholic pilgrims from Belgium, is said to have condemned the participation of Catholics in antisemitic movements and to have added that Christians, the spiritual descendents of the Patriarch Abraham, were “spiritually Semites.” This statement was omitted by all the Italian papers, including “L’Osservatore Romano”. (La Croix, no. 17060; Lewy)
humanitas-international.org/holocaust/1938tbse.htm

John 15 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. 10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. 12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.

Luke 22 35 When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, did you want anything? 36 But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword. 37 For I say to you, that this that is written must yet be fulfilled in me:

 

[BibleSteve]

I’m sorry… I’m confused.

Who was acting spiritually correct in this “Just War”?

The German Catholic who was killing the American Catholic?

Or, the American Catholic who was killing the German Catholic?

 

[dosdog]

I’m sorry… I’m confused.

Who was acting spiritually correct in this “Just War”?

The German Catholic who was killing the American Catholic?

Or, the American Catholic who was killing the German Catholic?

But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force, telling the apostles, “let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one” (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.Added weight is given to this realization when one recognizes that Scripture – all of Scripture – is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is “a time to kill” (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for. Thus the psalmist exclaims, “how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!” (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be achieved without force, force must be used.In the same way, the New Testament sets forth the goal of peace but acknowledges the legitimate use of force. It does so by John the Baptist’s acknowledgment that Roman soldiers, whose job it was to enforce the Pax Romana, or “Peace of Rome,” could keep their jobs (Luke 3:14) and by Paul’s observation that the state “does not bear the sword in vain” but is “God’s servant for your good” (Rom. 13:4).The most authoritative and up-to-date expression of just war doctrine is found in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says:The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; there must be serious prospects of success; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp

 

[BibleSteve]

OK, so I’ve read up on this doctrinal idea and I’m seriously still confused.

The idea says that there are just reasons to wage war and kill the enemy on the other side of the battle.

So, my question is this. In WWII, I would assume “Just War” proponents would say the US Catholics were just in waging war against the German Catholics.

What is the Catholic Church’s position against these German Catholics and the Germany Catholic clergy that encouraged their soldiers to fight for their country on the wrong side of this “Just War”?

Were they scolded, excommunicated, publically rebuked? Are these soldiers and clergy destined for Hell?

 

[Hellisreal]

Is it loving to stand by and sit while people are being killed?

 

[yessisan]

Great post Jeff!! As always, you bring things up that many of us didn’t know about the WT.

I love the fact that you can always show who’s on the peaceful, Christian side.

Bad thing is that JWs will always argue “but you still were killing each ohter”… They don’t get it. They rather let their brother be killed than help him out…

 

[yessisan]

Is it loving to stand by and sit while people are being killed?

On the book Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock a book only meant for JW elders published by the WT and edited on 1991 on pages 141-142, you will find this:

By following balanced Bible counsel, Christians can usually avoid getting into situations that might involve acts of self-defense . (Prov. 15 : 1 ; 17 :14 ; 26 :17) If assaulted, a Christian could ward off blows or even escape from the attacker by temporarily incapacitating him.

A Christian woman threatened with rape should resist to the best of her ability . (Deut . 22:23-27 ; g84 2/22 pp . 24-7; w83 3/15 p . 30 ; g80 7/8 pp. 9-13 ; g73 4/22 pp. 16-17 ; w68 6/1 pp . 345-50)
Screaming is usually one of the best defenses ; however, some individuals are unable to scream out of intense fear. (A male or female who is forcibly raped would not be guilty ofpor.nei’a . )

It is not in harmony with the spirit of 1 Corinthians 13 : 4-7 or Isaiah 2 :4 for a Christian to learn karate, judo, or other martial arts . (Compare John 13 :35 ; g75 12/8 pp. 28-9 .)

A brother would be disqualified as an elder, a ministerial servant, or a pioneer if he took up the study of such martial arts and practiced them .

A person publicly advocating such could be dealt
with in line with 2 Thessalonians 3 :13-15 .

As in the case of a person who takes up professional boxing and continues in such a course, he would be expelled from the congregation . (w81 7/1 pp. 30-1)

They are mandated to not get involved phisically to even help one another, not even for self-defense. A woman, if being raped, needs to scream, if she doesn’t then she’s at fault. If she is raped, and doesn’t have 2 witnesses, then it’s her fault…

 

[yessisan]

Take a look at this, like always JWs say one thing but do another…

Watchtower’s Investments in Warfare Technology

They don’t fight, but do invest in warfare technology… sounds like the time when they said the UN was evil but did have an affiliation with them as an NGO “just to use their library”… please!

 

[paarsurrey]

On the book Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock a book only meant for JW elders published by the WT and edited on 1991 on pages 141-142, you will find this:

They are mandated to not get involved phisically to even help one another, not even for self-defense. A woman, if being raped, needs to scream, if she doesn’t then she’s at fault. If she is raped, and doesn’t have 2 witnesses, then it’s her fault…

Hi

This is just a discipline of the JWs, I think there is nothing wrong with it. And I think it is in line with the teaching of the Christianity.

Thanks

 

[b_justb]

Some interesting readings from JW’s during WW2 and after WW2 about JW’s and the war:

An English translation of the JW tract, “Declaration of Facts”, distributed in Germany in 1933

The text of a declaration carried in the Trost magazine, from the Swiss branch of the WTS in the original, and in English.

An English translation by James Penton of the letter to Adolf Hitler which accompanied his personal copy of the Declaration of Facts, here.

JW Letter to Hitler, text version German, and English.

A Tale of Two Yearbooks - JWs in the 1930s in Germany as told in the JW yearbook 1934 and then what they said in 1974, here.

And just tons more info here.

 

[yessisan]

Hi

This is just a discipline of the JWs, I think there is nothing wrong with it. And I think it is in line with the teaching of the Christianity.

Thanks

They go back and forth with all their teaching. They condemn it and then they allow it, but condemn it again. Take a look at this:

from freeminds.org

JWs will, however, allow for self-defense. In the Sept. 8 Awake! in 1975 (pp. 27, 28), several points are made to this effect:
(1) Matthew 5:39 does not apply to matters of self-defense.
(2) self-defense is instinctive.
(3) In certain circumstances there is no bloodguilt in the case of a death blow to the opponent.
(4) It’s okay to protect one’s family in self-defense - Eph. 5:25.
(5) Jesus’ apostles had two swords for protection (Luke 22:38).2
(6) Peter’s action in Matthew 26:51 was wrong, not because it was self-defense, but because Peter was resisting both the lawful authorities and God’s will.

The WT of June 1, 1968 (p.347) adds that one could ALSO defend one’s SPIRITUAL BROTHERS AND SISTERS from personal attack if necessary, and uses John 15:13 as a reference.

These last two references are very important if one wishes to reason with the JW on the issue of military service. The following steps of reason should be employed:

1. self-defense is proper if there is no other workable solution.
2. Defending one’s family is proper by the same token.
3. Defending one’s spiritual brothers and sisters can be proper.
4. Defending one’s neighbor who is being viciously attacked may also be proper, considering the circumstances (Luke 10:27).

REASON: How can you love your neighbor as yourself if you offer him no assistance in emergency? To stand by or walk away would be similar to the ways of the Pharisees (Luke 10:30-37).

1. REASONING TO USE: Where do you draw the line? Your spiritual brothers and sisters and your neighbors may comprise a sizeable sector of a whole nation, and this nation may be under attack by a totalitarian country seeking its destruction. Is not this an issue of self-defense for one’s neighbors and many spiritual brothers and sisters? Do you draw an imaginary line at your doorstep, or that of the Kingdom Hall, saying “I will go this far, and no farther?” (Matt. 5:46,47)

NOTE: One’s efforts should not be to persuade the Witness that war is proper or that one should always defend one’s self. The SOLE POINT to be made is that their position is somewhat contradictory. They believe in self defense, but cannot draw a line of demarcation biblically between who is their neighbor and who isn’t. If a war may be fought in self-defense, they may find it necessary to resist evil in protecting their neighbors. Hopefully, such a presentation offers them food for thought, before they go and condemn Christians who do go to war.

Yet, they condem it on the Pay Attention book edited in 1991…

 

[yessisan]

Also from the same freeminds site:

Jehovah’s Witnesses at present maintain a stance of allowing for self-defense, but not for going to war or serving in the armed forces for any reason. They do not wish to be called “pacifists,” but have chosen to be exempt from military service as ministers or as conscientious objectors. Even as conscientious objectors, however, they will not serve in any noncombatant service; they refuse to have anything to do with conscription or community aid.

Few Witnesses realize, however, that the WT once allowed for military service. The Aug. 1, 1898 WT on page 231 says, “There is no command in the Scriptures against military service,” and, “It would be quite right to shoot, not to kill.” The April 15, 1903 WT on page 120 says, “There could be nothing against our conscience in going into the army. Wherever we would go we could take the Lord with us, the Captain of our salvation, and wherever we would go we could find opportunities to serve him and his cause.”

A complete reversal of this reasoning later occurred, as is demonstrated by this statement from the February 1, 1951 WT on page 73: “It is only due to conscience that [Jehovah’s Witnesses] have personally and legally objected before draft boards to participating in the armed conflicts and defense programs of worldly nations.”

However, they still condemn self defense nowadays

 

[yessisan]

More on Jws and War: War Materials

 

[Hellisreal]

Dear yessisan,

I have read this before from sites that quote directly from the WBTS materials.

I asked in all sincerity how it is loving to sit back

And - my real point was

in any circumstance?

Like charity to those in need?

I also know the rebuttal to this.

Only the annointed.

Yessisan, while I enjoy posting on these topics, I must admit to you it actually is very mentally and emotionally draining.

I get so sad and depressed reading about these things the WBTS prints.

I only post here because I read several of your threads today.

I am no longer going to be posting here much, but checking my PM’s and every once and a while I will post on something.

I am convinced, no matter what the denomination is- if there is a lack of understanding of Christ there will be these things being taught to the sheep who follow in sincere willingness to follow the Lord.

I know God wants me to Love all.

Christ is the key to these things yessisan.

Christ will show you a way.

Your strife now, you must give it to Him. Totally.

You must carry on with the faith He is there, with you if you ask Him!

Do not let others tell you how to act/be/do

Seek Christ and Look to Him

Let all this baggage go so you can focus on Him

Ask Him to carry it for you now

Love all people as you do

He will be with you Yessisan

never doubt it

Love,

H

On the book Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock a book only meant for JW elders published by the WT and edited on 1991 on pages 141-142, you will find this:

They are mandated to not get involved phisically to even help one another, not even for self-defense. A woman, if being raped, needs to scream, if she doesn’t then she’s at fault. If she is raped, and doesn’t have 2 witnesses, then it’s her fault…

 

[TraditionalCath]

i’d like to add my 2 cents here. as a former jw myself, i can honestly tell you in truth, that the witnesses are not thankful to our troops in any war for securing our freedom, freedom that they richly enjoy thanks to the sacrifice the allies have made in WW2 AND WW1. if we had not won those wars, especially WW2, they might not be around today to practice their belief. hitler might have completely wiped them out. they are not even remotely thankful for the allies sacrifice in either one of those wars. they should be thanking God that we won that war. but they are not. they are not even remotely interested in the sacrifice saint maximilian kolbe made either. they don’t care.

that was a just war and so was WW1. they should praise God for the freedom they have because of the allied forces. but they don’t.