JWs and St Stephen?

[Catholic_Dude]

I was looking up some stuff in the Bible and I came across Acts 7 and was reminded of St Stephen’s martyrdom. This passage really stood out:
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Here is what the JW translation of the Bible says:
59 And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
Two things stood out:

1)St Stephen says “receive my spirit”. He was entrusting his soul to Jesus! The JWs dont believe in an immortal soul, and Im pretty sure they dont consider Jesus as the one to be talking to like that. In places like Rev 6:9 we see the souls of other martyrs in Heaven.

2)In verse 60 we see in regular translations “Lord do not hold this against them”, yet in the JW translation it says “Jehovah, do not…”. The JWs claim the Greek word for “Lord” should actually be translated “Jehovah” (yet there are no Greek manuscripts that use the term “Jehovah”) HOWEVER a big problem arises here for two reasons. First in the previous verse Jesus is called “Lord” yet the JWs dont translate that into “Jehovah”, second the context shows Stephen was talking to Jesus here, thus in v60 the “Lord” here is actually Jesus!

What are your thoughts?

 

[teachccd]

JW’s also don’t pray to Jesus. Hmm…guess this passage messes up a few things for them…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

JW’s also don’t pray to Jesus. Hmm…guess this passage messes up a few things for them…

They dont pray to Jesus at all?
If that is true then that is another thing to bring up!

 

[teachccd]

What are your thoughts?

Having known and conversed with a JW regularly for about seven years, my thoughts are that they are a cult with a bible version (New World Translation) that is molded to their doctrines. They have totally distorted the nature of God (modern day Arianism) and will do anything for conversion. They are as fervent as they are misled.

Your thoughts on their beliefs on the mortality if the human soul is surely disputed in the passage you quote as well as many other verses in scripture. Good luck if you are conversing with a JW. It is a difficult road to travel…best to you…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

They dont pray to Jesus at all?
If that is true then that is another thing to bring up!

that is indeed true. Trust me on this…

Why would they pray to Jesus? They believe that He is just “a god” see John 1:1 in the NWT. They ONLY pray to Jehovah. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…We could go on all night…teachccd

 

[andre]

that is indeed true. Trust me on this…

Why would they pray to Jesus? They believe that He is just “a god” see John 1:1 in the NWT. They ONLY pray to Jehovah. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…We could go on all night…teachccd

The JW excually have a different interpretation to this, they say St.Stephen was talking to Jesus standing close to him and after that he looked to the sky and talked to the real God, Jehovah.
I think they also have another excuse linked to St. Stephen talking to Jesus on the street (e.g. when St.Thomas said “My Lord and my God”).

For more info read the book by Jason Evert and also the website of Catholic Ex-JW’s Jeffery Schwehm, and look for articles and conversion testimonys. (but there are lot’s more on this website)

catholicxjw.com

But offcourse read the articles about the Jehovah’s Witnesses on the Catholic Answers site in “Library” under “non-Catholic groups”.

God Bless!

Andrew

 

[excaliber]

What it will come down to is this… Jw’s have an intrpretation of what happened and so dose the Catholic church. The jw think the bible itself will be the tie breaker.

I can help.
you can successfully discuss the matter with a Jw…IF you know what scriptures the jw is getting his ideas from.

The bible is the best chanel of communication.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What it will come down to is this… Jw’s have an intrpretation of what happened and so dose the Catholic church. The jw think the bible itself will be the tie breaker.

What are you talking about? How can the Bible be the tie breaker?

The issue is how is a JW going to explain the fact St Stephen was praying to Jesus, asking Jesus to receive his spirit, and how come “Lord” is translated differently in that passage when clearly Jesus is the one the context refers to as “Lord”.

I can help.
you can successfully discuss the matter with a Jw…IF you know what scriptures the jw is getting his ideas from.

Have you talked with a JW on this verse? I would like to hear how they explained it and what you thought of their explanation.

The bible is the best channel of communication.

When dealing with Sola Scriptra, the Bible is basically the ONLY channel.

 

[yessisan]

Have you talked with a JW on this verse? I would like to hear how they explained it and what you thought of their explanation.

Excaliber knows what he’s taking about. He used to be one of them…

I can also help… I’m married to one and I “studied” with them for a yr and attended all their meetings and assemblies for a yr w/DH.

 

[teachccd]

What it will come down to is this… Jw’s have an intrpretation of what happened and so dose the Catholic church. The jw think the bible itself will be the tie breaker.

I can help.
you can successfully discuss the matter with a Jw…IF you know what scriptures the jw is getting his ideas from.

The bible is the best chanel of communication.

Your profile states that you are a Jehovah’s Witness. Are you still?

I have been side by side with a JW for seven years. I’ve heard their meetings on the phone line and have a ton of their literature. I have their translation of scripture (in three bible sizes!) and I have been talking with him about everything. Short of being a JW myself I have definitely been “taught”. And that is why I am the fervent Catholic that I am today.

The title of this thread is “JW’s and St. Stephen”. I will not go further but anyone could start a thread entitled, “JW’s and anything.” They oppose almost all orthodox Christian theology including the nature of our triune God. Very sad as they are one of the hardest sect to penetrate since Catholicism is their biggest enemy and everything except themselves is from satan…Good luck…teachccd

 

[BibleSteve]

The issue is how is a JW going to explain the fact St Stephen was praying to Jesus, asking Jesus to receive his spirit, …

Let’s see… Jesus specifically taught his disciples to pray to the Father. Jesus himself prayed to the Father. We are told to imitate Jesus.

So, when Stephen utters some words directed to Jesus as he’s being killed, now everybody wants to rush off and use this as a proof text you should now pray to Jesus?

Think about it. Don’t Jesus’ words and teaching on whom you should pray to mean anything to you?

Who’s example are you going to imitate?

Steve

 

[excaliber]

catholic dude…you asked for it and you got it. Steve did not go deep into scripture as I thought he would.
I am Jw now because my parents raised me that way, but I think we are WRONG very WRONG in teaching…but we are very sincere
in trying.
I do not think God left a book in charge, I now think he left THE church in charge. The bible is a tool the church uses to teach with.
God sertainly did not leave the watchtower in charge.

It would actualy be easier for me if
the watchtower was correct…but we are not, unless you believe that Jesus secretly or invisible presence
told someone in watchtower that they are in charge.

The watchtower has no athority…
If someone waves a bible around and says Im a leader…SOMEONE will always follow them. And that is what is happening with jw going door to door.

 

[excaliber]

So, when Stephen utters some words directed to Jesus as he’s being killed, now everybody wants to rush off and use this as a proof text you should now pray to Jesus?

Think about it. Don’t Jesus’ words and teaching on whom you should pray to mean anything to you?

Steve

I don’t think The Catholic church is
using a verse about St.Stephen to
build its theology.
The watchtower trys to do that, with parts of verses about 144,000
for example.

I don’t think following watchtower is following Jesus example…Jesus was not handing out magazine’s.
If Jw were going preaching like the apostles they would be healing people also.

A text book needs a teacher. How many of us went to a school with no teachers only class rooms and books?
The bible needs someone to teach
its meaning. My simple question is why would you chose the watchtower as your teacher?

They just had a layoff at there headquarters for crying out loud.
Which is the equivalent of another teaching change.

 

[BibleSteve]

The topic under discussion is whether Stephen uttering words to Jesus upon being killed provides a precedent for Christians to ignore Jesus straightforward counsel to pray to his Father in favor of praying to Jesus.

My position is that Jesus was very clear about who to pray to. I will follow his example in praying to his Father.

 

[excaliber]

The topic under discussion is whether Stephen uttering words to Jesus upon being killed provides a precedent for Christians to ignore Jesus straightforward counsel to pray to his Father in favor of praying to Jesus.

My position is that Jesus was very clear about who to pray to. I will follow his example in praying to his Father.

If I say the sky is clearly brown…dose that make it true?

Likwise steve when you say Christ was clearly teaching watchtower doctrine, you don’t strengthen your argument.

Steve it is actualy sort of comical, you say Jesus was clearly teaching such and such as if you were there. But the TRUTH is you were not there, you don’t know for sure and you need a teacher like we all do. You chose the watchtower, so ofcourse jw teaching seems obvious to you…because watchtower changed the new world translation to make it SEEM obviouse.

In fact Steve if Christ was so straight forward with watchtower teaching…why did it take a few THOUSAND years before C.T.Russel found out that we were obviously supposed to call our selves bible students and make future predictions. opps or was it rutherford who was correct, we should call ourselves Jehovah’s witness.Etc…etc…Watchtower even flip floped on its own name while changing presidents.

So do we listen to watchtower or the Catholic church?
well even if you don’t want to listen to the Catholic church…of all the 30,000 or so denominations
Watchtower should be the first droped from the list of trust worthy organizations.

I would go with the Catholic church on this one.

 

[MH84]

2)In verse 60 we see in regular translations “Lord do not hold this against them”, yet in the JW translation it says “Jehovah, do not…”. The JWs claim the Greek word for “Lord” should actually be translated “Jehovah” (yet there are no Greek manuscripts that use the term “Jehovah”) HOWEVER a big problem arises here for two reasons. First in the previous verse Jesus is called “Lord” yet the JWs dont translate that into “Jehovah”, second the context shows Stephen was talking to Jesus here, thus in v60 the “Lord” here is actually Jesus!

Excellent, Catholic Dude!

Another point Ive noticed before is that in the Gospels at the crucifixion, Jesus said to God (the Father):

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Then in Acts, it is Stephen asking Jesus:
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[BibleSteve]

Steve it is actualy sort of comical, you say Jesus was clearly teaching such and such as if you were there. But the TRUTH is you were not there, you don’t know for sure …

It’s clear enough for me. I’m sorry you are confused about this…

(Luke 11:1-4) Now on the occasion of his being in a certain place praying, when he stopped, a certain one of his disciples said to him: “Lord, teach us how to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.” 2 Then he said to them: “Whenever you pray, say, ‘Father, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. 3 Give us our bread for the day according to the day’s requirement. 4 And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone that is in debt to us; and do not bring us into temptation.’”

(Matthew 26:42) Again, for the second time, he went off and prayed, saying: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.”

Simple Questions:

1. Who did Jesus teach his disciples to pray to?
2. Who did Jesus pray to?

In both cases, the answer is his Father.

Are you really going to argue over this simple point?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I was looking up some stuff in the Bible and I came across Acts 7 and was reminded of St Stephen’s martyrdom. This passage really stood out:
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Here is what the JW translation of the Bible says:
59 And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
Two things stood out:

1)St Stephen says “receive my spirit”. He was entrusting his soul to Jesus! The JWs dont believe in an immortal soul, and Im pretty sure they dont consider Jesus as the one to be talking to like that. In places like Rev 6:9 we see the souls of other martyrs in Heaven.

2)In verse 60 we see in regular translations “Lord do not hold this against them”, yet in the JW translation it says “Jehovah, do not…”. The JWs claim the Greek word for “Lord” should actually be translated “Jehovah” (yet there are no Greek manuscripts that use the term “Jehovah”) HOWEVER a big problem arises here for two reasons. First in the previous verse Jesus is called “Lord” yet the JWs dont translate that into “Jehovah”, second the context shows Stephen was talking to Jesus here, thus in v60 the “Lord” here is actually Jesus!

What are your thoughts?

You are right Stephan is addressing Jesus as Jehovah.

The JWs and SDA will try to get around this text by interpreting “spirit” to mean simply life force.

They also, mess up at

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

1 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

The grammar in verse one and two is exactly the same where the word Kryious is used. In one place, they translate Jehovah. The other place to be consistent with context should also be translated Jehovah too.

See Newman’s powerpoint for other places where translating Jehovah comes back to haunt them too,
ibri.org/DVD-1/NewmanPpt/RespJWs.htm

 

[excaliber]

Show me the bible verse that says we canot pray to Jesus? There is NONE. But the Church that is here to guide us (not just a book) says we can.

If you take part of a verse literally
you must take it all litteraly. Jesus did not say ALL PRAYERS MUST START “Our father in heaven”, but watchtower uses that part of the verse. In fact If all prayers MUST START that way then they should all finish the same as Jesus prayer…but watchtower dose not repeat this prayer at all.

Jw’s canot have taken Jesus prayer to seriously because they use Jehovah and not Father.

Its the same with the 144,000…taking only that part of the verse litteraly. That was wrong.

Likewise taking just the first part of Jesus prayers and saying all prayers must be addressed FATHER, is not correct.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Let’s see… Jesus specifically taught his disciples to pray to the Father. Jesus himself prayed to the Father. We are told to imitate Jesus.

But you have to realize how much changed AFTER the Resurrection. Jesus was NO LONGER in His servant role. During His servant role He wanted to keep attention off of Himself until His work was finished.

So, when Stephen utters some words directed to Jesus as he’s being killed, now everybody wants to rush off and use this as a proof text you should now pray to Jesus?

Again, you need to realize the context especially in light of the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus into Glory:
54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed,** “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them**.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
The concept of “standing at the right hand” is an ancient way of saying someone is equal in authority to you. We know the Father doesnt literally have a physical right hand which intensifies this moment of seeing Jesus all the more. Further it says Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit when he said those words “Lord Jesus receive my spirit” making the prayer all the more inspired. And lastly in v60 it Stephen is still addressing the “Lord” in which his prayer continues.

What St Stephen did was in no way unBiblical if you understand the doctrine of the Trinity, if not then to ask a creature to receive your spirit is simply blasphemous.

Think about it. Don’t Jesus’ words and teaching on whom you should pray to mean anything to you?

Who’s example are you going to imitate?

That is a false argument because you assume things cant change through further divine revelation (in this case Jesus being Glorified in Heaven). It would be like a Jew condemning Christians for not following the Mosaic Law which was given by God and saying to the Christians “doesnt the Mosaic Law mean anything to you Christians”?. Sure the Mosaic Law means something to Christians, but with the divine revelation of Jesus it means a lot more.
Look at these passages showing how great a change took place:
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
-Phil 2

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
-Romans 10
Now you must confess Jesus is Lord and must call upon Him.