JWs explain Rev. 7:9 and 11 in Greek?

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ok since BibleSteve won’t address me because I am an apostate–former JW (even tho I was never disfellowshipped or disassociated) perhaps some of the other people on this forum who he can speak with or other JW Apologists can answer my question.

The Kingdom Interlinear Greek Translation uses the exact same phrase in Greek (translated as “before the throne”) in both Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 referring to the Great Crowd and in verse 11 referring to the angels. It is a huge doctrinal point for the JWs that the Great Crowd is on EARTH and the angels are in HEAVEN, but their own Interlinear uses exactly the same phrase for where they both are. :eek:

Is the Great Crowd in heaven or angels on earth? 🤷 How can they be in two different places when it is the exact same Greek phrase describing where they are?

I have no idea how to scan the page and post it in here, so if anyone wants to see the actual page with the Greek phrase scanned, email me and I will send it to you as an attachment.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
ok since BibleSteve won’t address me because I am an apostate–former JW (even tho I was never disfellowshipped or disassociated) perhaps some of the other people on this forum who he can speak with or other JW Apologists can answer my question.

The Kingdom Interlinear Greek Translation uses the exact same phrase in Greek (translated as “before the throne”) in both Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 referring to the Great Crowd and in verse 11 referring to the angels. It is a huge doctrinal point for the JWs that the Great Crowd is on EARTH and the angels are in HEAVEN, but their own Interlinear uses exactly the same phrase for where they both are. :eek:

Is the Great Crowd in heaven or angels on earth? 🤷 How can they be in two different places when it is the exact same Greek phrase describing where they are?

I have no idea how to scan the page and post it in here, so if anyone wants to see the actual page with the Greek phrase scanned, email me and I will send it to you as an attachment.
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jeff would be better off answering this as his knowledge is extensive. but, i will give you my point of view. the great crowd does not refer to the angels in heaven. the angels in heaven are not the 144,000 either. the great crowd is us, you me, other humans, but they are “faithful” witnesses who will live on earth after armageddon. the angels still in heaven for eternity. this is the best i can describe it.
 
JWs believe the Great Crowd are those who will live on earth. BUT the scriptures say that they are in the same place as ANGELS by using the same phrase to describe where they are “before the throne”. JWs say that BEFORE the throne is on EARTH. My question is how can they believe this when their own ‘Watchtowered’ Greek Interlinear proves that they are in the same place as angels? Are the angels then on earth too?

I understand who the Great Crowd is and where they are. My question is how do JWs explain their beliefs in light of the evidence in their own book against them?
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
JWs believe the Great Crowd are those who will live on earth. BUT the scriptures say that they are in the same place as ANGELS by using the same phrase to describe where they are “before the throne”. JWs say that BEFORE the throne is on EARTH. My question is how can they believe this when their own ‘Watchtowered’ Greek Interlinear proves that they are in the same place as angels? Are the angels then on earth too?

I understand who the Great Crowd is and where they are. My question is how do JWs explain their beliefs in light of the evidence in their own book against them?
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iam going to pm our good friend jeff and ask him for a reply. he will explain this simply:) pm sent!👍
 
An examination of Revelation 7:9 in the light of texts such as Matthew 25:31,*32 makes it clear that people here on earth could be “before the throne".

(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

(Matthew 25:31-32) “When **the Son of man arrives **in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32*And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
 
BibleSteve said:
…

(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
…
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I am asking for the comparison of verse 9 and verse 11. if before the throne is on earth in verse 9 where is it in verse 11? In the Greek Interlinear it uses the exact same phrase for what JWs teach are two different and very separate places…

thanks Steve.
 
here is th scan of the page of the Interlinear—notice the Greek phrase translated as “before the throne” is identical in both verses -yet JWs insist it is NOT the same place in both instances! They say the “great crowd” is on the earth and the angels are in heaven.
Also on the next page in verses 14 and 15 it uses the phrase “before the throne” again in regards to the “great crowd” and also says they are in the “divine habitation” of God----so is this “divine habitation” of God also on earth? or does God dwell in heaven?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
this is the thing that took me out of JWs—the straw that broke the camel’s back…and not one attempt to argue it?
hmpf.
I feel unwanted. 😦
(by JWs) 👍
 
Please note, the Greek says: “In the site of the throne”… What does that mean?

The scriptures consistently represent Jehovah sitting on his throne in heaven with his feet or foot stool here on earth:

(Isaiah 66:1) This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?”

(Lamentations 2:1) O how Jehovah in his anger beclouds the daughter of Zion! He has thrown **down from heaven to earth **the beauty of Israel. And he has not remembered **his footstool **in the day of his anger.

(Matthew 5:35) nor by earth, because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King.

(Acts 7:49) ‘The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What sort of house will YOU build for me? Jehovah says. Or what is the place for my resting?

If his throne is in heaven, and his footstool is the earth, what does it take to be “in the site of the throne”?

Visualize the picture of YHWH sitting on this throne in heaven with his feet sitting on a footstool here on earth.

Is heaven “in the sight of the throne”? Yes.

Is earth “in the site of the throne”? Yes.

Also consider, Matt 25:33-35

Here we have the nations on earth being separated by Jesus… Jesus is on his throne and the nations are “before him”….

31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Where are the nations when they are gather before Jesus, before the throne?

My conclusion is that the Greek phrase “in sight of the throne” can apply to people in heaven or on earth, before his “footstool”.
 
it does not matter what the greek says as much as the fact that it is the exact same thing for the great crowd—supposedly on earth and the angels in heaven! how can that be? Why would the Greek be the same phrase if it did not mean the same thing in both instances? In verse 14, 15 it says the Lamb is in the middle of the throne, so why can’t it differentiate between the great crowd and the angels?
 
ok let me put it this way…I know the JW argument that the great crowd is on earth. so now tell me why the angels are in heaven? give me the scriptures that prove “before the throne” is heaven for the angels when it is earth for the great crowd? or are you telling me the angels are on the earth too?
 
BibleSteve said:
Also consider, Matt 25:33-35

Here we have the nations on earth being separated by Jesus… Jesus is on his throne and the nations are “before him”….

31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Where are the nations when they are gather before Jesus, before the throne?
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yes where ARE they? this does not prove that they are on earth. and there are no scriptures connecting the earth being God’s footstool with being “before the throne” either…the “throne” is not here being used to represent all of heaven or else the angels would be ON it! It is a specific place where God happens to be in this instance.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
it does not matter what the greek says as much as the fact that it is the exact same thing for the great crowd—supposedly on earth and the angels in heaven! how can that be? Why would the Greek be the same phrase if it did not mean the same thing in both instances? In verse 14, 15 it says the Lamb is in the middle of the throne, so why can’t it differentiate between the great crowd and the angels?
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ok correction, in the above verses it mentions the great crowd are before the lamb and in verse 17 it mentions the lamb is in the middle, translated ‘in the midst of the throne’----sooooooo if the exact place can be differentiated for the lamb why wouldn’t it be likewise differentiated for where the great crowd and the angels are? It says they are IN THE SAME PLACE. NOT one in front of another (as it does for the lamb and the great crowd). See what I am saying?
 
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