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Nicea325
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I understand what you are saying,but I disagree with their “whys” and “wherefores” because creatures cannot save humanity or bring redemption. Only God ALONE can save.
JW's: If Jesus is the archangel Michael,then the Messiah in the OT is Michael?
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They do not claim…except perhaps the JW…SDA do not…that Michael is “creature”…but another name for “Angel of the Lord” as often used in Genesis…the “Angel of the Lord” wrestled with Jacob…the “Angel of the Lord” appeared to Abram…and they addressed Him as God…not “creature”…so as I am able to understand some of their doctrinal beleifs…it does make sense…especially since “Michael” means “He that is like God”…the portrayal of the original post I commented on stated their beliefs very incorrectly…I’m not saying I stated them correct…but perhaps “more correct” portrayal of their beliefs…but then…I’m not trying to “prove” they’re wrong…it just is.
I think an accurate portrayal of their beliefs is necessary to understand their beliefs, instead of a very inaccurate portrayal…similar to when people say “Catholics worship Mary”…then quote from an older text which uses “worship” when it should be “veneration”…
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Nicea325
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Yes I understand,but simply because Michael means: He that is like God, does not change an iota that ALL angels of all ranks were CREATED,thus are mere creatures.They do not claim…except perhaps the JW…SDA do not…that Michael is “creature”…but another name for “Angel of the Lord” as often used in Genesis…the “Angel of the Lord” wrestled with Jacob…the “Angel of the Lord” appeared to Abram…and they addressed Him as God…not “creature”…so as I am able to understand some of their doctrinal beleifs…it does make sense…especially since “Michael” means “He that is like God”…the portrayal of the original post I commented on stated their beliefs very incorrectly…I’m not saying I stated them correct…but perhaps “more correct” portrayal of their beliefs…but then…I’m not trying to “prove” they’re wrong…it just is.
Can God appear as an angel? Yes of course! Even St.Paul says the Devil can appear as an angel of light.
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Yes…but who ranked the “angels” and named them “created”? Your belief system claims so…their belief system makes the exception to Michael…who is not necessarily “creature” according to their beliefs…so portraying their beliefs as a “creature” is “God” is incorrect from their point of view…and not making that clear “muddies the water” so to speak in seeking a better understanding of what it is these other belief systems actually do believe…not why it is wrong according to my beliefs and definitions…but why they believe it using their beliefs and defintions. Only by understanding WHAT they are trying to convey by such a belief can we understand that belief.
You of course may disagree.
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Nicea325
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Of course I disagree because it is called relativism…no absolute Truth. In other words, my beliefs and yours are all good,right and okay. Wrong!Yes…but who ranked the “angels” and named them “created”? Your belief system claims so…their belief system makes the exception to Michael…who is not necessarily “creature” according to their beliefs…so portraying their beliefs as a “creature” is “God” is incorrect from their point of view…and not making that clear “muddies the water” so to speak in seeking a better understanding of what it is these other belief systems actually do believe…not why it is wrong according to my beliefs and definitions…but why they believe it using their beliefs and defintions. Only by understanding WHAT they are trying to convey by such a belief can we understand that belief.
You of course may disagree.
If that is the case,then WHO says God is Eternal? My system? The Jewish system?
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My beliefs and yours are seeking to convey Truth and seek to convey an understanding of Truth that makes sense in our world…YOU might call it relativism…I wouldn’t…I would not say my beliefs are absolute Truth…but a pale shadow of Truth…I would not claim absolute Truth for yours either…God is eternal and Wholly Other…His ways are as high above my understanding as the heavens are above the earth…He is All and in All…The Everlasting One to Everlasting…I can barely conceive of a trip to the moon and back…and a manned trip to Mars is still science fiction…so how could I conceive of the Absolute and relay it in words that would approach even an iota of the Whole?
“Let the earth be silent before Him.”…the Word was Spoken in the life of Jesus of Nazareth…He Spoke the Incarnation…a Holy Mystery…you may have a much deeper grasp of the Wholly Other and Eternal than I…but I would hardly say you possess absolute Truth…“we see through a glass darkly…”
“Let the earth be silent before Him.”
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Nicea325
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My beliefs and yours are seeking to convey Truth and seek to convey an understanding of Truth that makes sense in our world…YOU might call it relativism…I wouldn’t…I would not say my beliefs are absolute Truth…but a pale shadow of Truth…I would not claim absolute Truth for yours either…God is eternal and Wholly Other…His ways are as high above my understanding as the heavens are above the earth…He is All and in All…The Everlasting One to Everlasting…I can barely conceive of a trip to the moon and back…and a manned trip to Mars is still science fiction…so how could I conceive of the Absolute and relay it in words that would approach even an iota of the Whole? “Let the earth be silent before Him.”…the Word was Spoken in the life of Jesus of Nazareth…He Spoke the Incarnation…a Holy Mystery…you may have a much deeper grasp of the Wholly Other and Eternal than I…but I would hardly say you possess absolute Truth…“we see through a glass darkly…” “Let the earth be silent before Him.”
Sorry my friend,but according to WHOSE belief system? The same question you posed on me about the angelical ranks,thus under WHOSE belief system do derive the above statement?
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To be able to understand the Eternal…would not be the Eternal if understood by one such as me…I am mortal and finite…my existence tells me I can never understand the Eternal FOR I am finite and this life and my “knowledge” is transitory and shadow of a Realtiy I cannot comprehend.
It is the situation in life I find myself…and with all mortals and finite beings to understand the Eternal and possess Absolute Knowledge and Truth would indicate I am not mortal nor would I be finite…I have no set beliefs concerning angelical ranks…such things have no real meaning for me…they are “construct”, not fact…constructs some use to seek to better understand the Great Mystery.
I no more believe the JW’s are any more correct than the SDA’s or Catholics on the order and nature of the angels…I guess THAT would be my belief system…I don’t know nor can I understand or comprehend angelic beings who reside in the Presence any more than I can conceive of Absolute Truth…the testimony we have in scripture is to even see God’s face would be death as we could not endure it’s Glory…
I can try to understand why the JW’s and SDA’s…and Catholics…believe as they do…and what “constructs” each group employs to seek to convey Truth…but none…even Friends are able to use our finite language and “constructs” to do so…which brings us back to my “problem” in being able to understand…I am a finite being.
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Nicea325
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With all due respect,but it seems you danced around my question to you.To be able to understand the Eternal…would not be the Eternal if understood by one such as me…I am mortal and finite…my existence tells me I can never understand the Eternal FOR I am finite and this life and my “knowledge” is transitory and shadow of a Realtiy I cannot comprehend.
It is the situation in life I find myself…and with all mortals and finite beings to understand the Eternal and possess Absolute Knowledge and Truth would indicate I am not mortal nor would I be finite…I have no set beliefs concerning angelical ranks…such things have no real meaning for me…they are “construct”, not fact…constructs some use to seek to better understand the Great Mystery.
I no more believe the JW’s are any more correct than the SDA’s or Catholics on the order and nature of the angels…I guess THAT would be my belief system…I don’t know nor can I understand or comprehend angelic beings who reside in the Presence any more than I can conceive of Absolute Truth…the testimony we have in scripture is to even see God’s face would be death as we could not endure it’s Glory…
I can try to understand why the JW’s and SDA’s…and Catholics…believe as they do…and what “constructs” each group employs to seek to convey Truth…but none…even Friends are able to use our finite language and “constructs” to do so…which brings us back to my “problem” in being able to understand…I am a finite being.
According to WHOSE belief system do you believe God is Eternal? Just like you stated it was my religion that says angels are ranked and created,thus I am asking you the same in regards to God’s Eternal existence?
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I would think we share a very similar belief system in that respect friend…so how about “Catholic”…or “Orthodox”…or “Anglican”…even “Jewish” or “Muslim”. I guess I’m not really understanding the point you’re trying to make…I am pretty dense at times…it’s a “Quaker” thing I guess.
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Nicea325
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My point is that you follow a belief system long established before any of our faiths existed right? So it would mean we adhere to a Jewish belief that God is Eternal-right? My point is God is the ONLY ONE who is ETERNAL,hence angels and mankind are finite creatures who were created by the Creator. Therefore,it is not my system of belief,but from God alone. Angels were created because to deny it would mean angels are also Eternal.I would think we share a very similar belief system in that respect friend…so how about “Catholic”…or “Orthodox”…or “Anglican”…even “Jewish” or “Muslim”. I guess I’m not really understanding the point you’re trying to make…I am pretty dense at times…it’s a “Quaker” thing I guess.
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Ahh…that may be true…but again…for a JW Michael WAS a created being who became incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth…He was God’s first creation…for an SDA, Michael is another “representaion” of the pre-existant Christ…not a created being as the SDA’s affirm the full deity of Christ…they make the distinction between Michael and the rest of those angels created by God…Michael is more of a “Theophany” …not a created angel…according to SDA teaching…I realize it doesn’t square with your beliefs…but to my point originally…the poster claimed that the JW’s believed Michael was Jesus in human form…that was a misrepresentation…they do believe Michael was the pre-existent Christ who incarnated in Jesus of Nazareth.
Both sects have the belief that Michael was the pre-existent Christ. I think it important if we are to relay what other’s believe…we do it accurately…without misrepresenting the teaching…as taught…if we disagree with the teaching as correctly taught…that is another matter…but let’s start out with relaying it correctly…dont’ you think that is a good idea?
I am not arguing for or against the teaching…just correcting a misrepresentation made by the OP…the OP was mistaken…come to think of it…you were the OP.
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Ahh…according to JW’s…God’s first creation was the pre-existent Christ…and through him all other things were created. Michael was the pre-existent Christ, God’s First Creation in the OT who became incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth.
We may be saying the same things…I do not embrace…nor defend JW theology…nor SDA theology…nor Catholic theology…I simply try to understand the “why” behind the belief…that is all…not defending nor arguing against it.
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Nicea325
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I am very familiar what JW’s teach and the belief Jesus was the first creation and was through him all other things were created. However,there are serious flaws with such an interpretation. The JWs’s first error begins with the term “firstborn” because it does not mean what they believe it signifies.Second,the designation of Jesus being the firstborn in no way indicates that Christ Himself was created by God.
If Jesus was CREATED and not Eternal,then how odd it scripture states the Son has the authority to redeem,save and give eternal life. An angel can redeem all of humanity? Where does the OT or NT teach angels can redeem and save all of humanity?
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Kc906
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Would the creation of the entire universe, visible and invisible, be created for anyone else other than God?
Colossians 1:16,* For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and* for Him.
So by Michael the Archangel all things (including himself) were created, and all of these things were created for him?
Everything that was created was created by God and for God; the only way this statement is true is if Jesus is God.
Colossians 1:16,* For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and* for Him.
So by Michael the Archangel all things (including himself) were created, and all of these things were created for him?
Everything that was created was created by God and for God; the only way this statement is true is if Jesus is God.
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Shannon9791
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That is absolutely correct but in the JW “translation” of the bible, they stick the word ‘other’ in that verse to make it seem like Jesus was also created. In their book it says:Would the creation of the entire universe, visible and invisible, be created for anyone else other than God?
Colossians 1:16,* For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and* for Him.
So by Michael the Archangel all things (including himself) were created, and all of these things were created for him?
Everything that was created was created by God and for God; the only way this statement is true is if Jesus is God.
“For by Him all (other) things were created that are in Heaven…”
In the online version I looked at, they added the parenthesis around other as well. That kinda makes me think that they don’t really know if that word belongs there or not.
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Phyllo
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They say that the word “other” was inserted to make the passage more understandable:
Yeah --more understandable so that it is NOT Jesus who holds all things together. We all know that it is God who holds all things together. So if they did not put “other” there the JW would realize that Jesus is God who holds all things together.
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Again…I am not defending their angelic theology…nor do I defend “Catholic” theology on the subject of angels…just seek to understand.
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Nicea325
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I understand and respect your position;however, I am trying to make you understand the serious flaws in JW theology and the contradictions it presents. I’ll even explain why JW theology is illogical. Case in point, Book of Hebrews Ch.1 verse 6 reads:
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
*"Let **all the angels *of God worship Him ."
Now according to JW theology Michael the archangel incarnated as a perfect creature named Jesus,then why would God the Creator allow ALL the angels to worship Him (Michael) who is another angel-man…hence CREATURE?
God forbids creatures to worship other creatures. Is God confused? Is God contradicting Himself? Is God being flexible for ALL angels to worship Michael/Jesus? It would logically mean that Michael is the exception and therefore Michael too can REDEEM & SAVE all of humanity. Is Michael NOW seated at the right hand of the Creator?
Now ask yourself: Is that the God of the OT & NT?
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I understand the “flaws” in JW theology as an “orthodox” person sees it…whether I count it as serious a “flaw” as you do is what seems to be our sticking point…what one does and how one conducts his life and treats others…even to the point of representing their beliefs honestly and accurately is more important FOR ME than what they believe.
I have known extreemly kind, generous, merciful JW’s…by no means a large amount as I have not had many JW friends…they may believe wrong according to your tradition…but their life conduct and love for others speaks for itself…I have known “orthodox believers” that can state and claim all the “right beliefs”…yet are hateful, spiteful, rude, and miserable people…“though I speak with the tongue of men and angels…understand all mysteries…have all knowledge…and have not love…it profits me nothing”…
To answer one of your questions…Michael is the “creature” created directly by God…all others were created by and through the Son…that sole situation of being not only the First of Creation…but the ONLY being created directly by God gives him a uniqueness…perhaps not according to Catholic belief…and that’s great…but only “Michael” was created by God…the rest of creation…and all creatures were created by and through him who came among us incarnate…whether “Michael” incarnated and became Jesus of Nazareth…or God the Son, second Person of the Trinity…all things in heaven, earth, under the earth was created by him as God’s agent…“Michael” seems to hold a unique place in JW thought that the “other angels” do not share…how I view that isn’t an issue…but JW’s view “Michael” differently than you are portraying…IMO.
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