JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

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I came upon this gold nugget online:Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because **he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.**42 All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue -Jonh 12 (NWT)

1 In the year that King Uz·zi´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. … …

5 And I proceeded to say: “Woe to me! For I am as good as brought to silence, because a man unclean in lips I am, and in among a people unclean in lips I am dwelling; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”

6 At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. 7 And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: “Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.”

8 And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I proceeded to say: “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”- Isaiah 6 (NWT)
The context of Jn 12:41 is Jesus and people believing in “him”, and it says Isaiah “saw his glory, and he spoke about him”… Isaiah is talking about Jesus!

Another gold nugget I remembered from a while back:38 However, the man from whom the demons had gone out kept begging to continue with him; but he dismissed the man, saying: 39 “Be on your way back home, and keep on relating what things God did for you.” Accordingly he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what things Jesus did for him. -Luke 8 (NWT)

spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm
 
Actually, Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 when he cried out, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me. It is a psalm of hope, not of abandonment. (vs 20-32). Vs 1-19 eerily reflect all that happened to Jesus on Good Friday.

Psalms
Chapter 22
1
1 2 For the leader; according to “The deer of the dawn.” A psalm of David.
2
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5
In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6
To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7
3 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9
“You relied on the LORD–let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you.”
10
Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother’s breast.
11
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13
4 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14
They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15
Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16
5 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17
Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18
that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19
they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20
But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21
Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22
Save me from the lion’s mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23
6 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24
“You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25
7 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26
I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27
8 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!”
28
All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29
For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30
9 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31
And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32
The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought
 
qui_est_ce said:
Actually, Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 when he cried out, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me. It is a psalm of hope, not of abandonment. (vs 20-32). Vs 1-19 eerily reflect all that happened to Jesus on Good Friday.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your contibution to this discussion.

When Thomas said “My God” to Jesus, many believe this proves Jesus is Jehovah God, the Almighty.

My question was simply when Jesus called out “My God” here and referred to “my God” in many other places (Rev 3:12 for example), who was Jesus considering to be his God?

So, if Jesus is Almighty God, does he have a God?

Steve
 
Steve, if you would continue past the criticism of Athansius, you will find the following:

Defenders of Athanasius
However, there are also many modern historians who object to this view and point out that such hostile attitude towards Athanasius is based on an unfair judgment of historical sources.[24] There are at present two completely opposite views about the personality of Athanasius. While some scholars praise him as an orthodox saint with great character, some see him as a power-hungry politician, or even a violent gangster. Both parties claim to have strong evidence supporting their views

As a Catholic, I would be of the party that sees him as a saintly man. We have to be careful not to judge history through modern lenses.
 
BibleSteve said:
Thank you for your contibution to this discussion.

When Thomas said “My God” to Jesus, many believe this proves Jesus is Jehovah God, the Almighty.

My question was simply when Jesus called out “My God” here and referred to “my God” in many other places (Rev 3:12 for example), who was Jesus considering to be his God?

So, if Jesus is Almighty God, does he have a God?

Steve
Click to expand...
You accused someone at the start of this thread that they were title matching. It seems to me your playing games with semantics.
 
MHalsey said:
You accused someone at the start of this thread that they were title matching. It seems to me your playing games with semantics.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry you feel that way. I will try to be more specific.

I’ve always had trouble understanding how Jesus could so frequently mention “his God”.

If Jesus is Jehovah as this thread suggests, how does he have a “God” and what is the “name of his God” as Rev 3:12 says?

(Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him **the name of my God **and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Steve
 
Steve, you are too focused on quotes out of context. You have to read all in context. Much of the New Testament is a fulfullment of the Old Testament. While single verses may be inspiring, interpretation must be based on the Bible as a whole. I am so happy to be a Catholic because I don’t have to reinvent the wheel. Our Church Fathers have dissected the Bible. They know Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin. I do not. They have studied customs and cultures of the day.

The Catholic Church also teaches that one must know what the writer MEANS when he “says” something. If in 200 years from now someone would say, “it used to rain cats and dogs in the year 2007, I read it in a book.” They would be literally correct, but that is not what we MEAN when we say it is raining cats and dogs.

This is what theologians do.
 
qui_est_ce said:
What is title matching?
Click to expand...
Steve used this argument to negate the original poster’s argument about the references to the Alpha and Omega in the book of Revelation. read the first few posts and you’ll understand where he was coming from. I don’t agree with Steve’s assessment though because Alpha and Omega is not a title, but a statement of being.
 
qui_est_ce said:
What is title matching?
Click to expand...
Title Matching is a method Trinitarians use to attempt to prove Jesus is Jehovah.

For example…

Jehovah = Savior
Jesus is called Savior
Thus, Jesus is Jehovah.

Earlier in this thread, I pointed out why this method is invalid through various examples.

Steve
 
BibleSteve said:
I’m sorry you feel that way. I will try to be more specific.

I’ve always had trouble understanding how Jesus could so frequently mention “his God”.

If Jesus is Jehovah as this thread suggests, how does he have a “God” and what is the “name of his God” as Rev 3:12 says?

(Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him **the name of my God **and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Steve
Click to expand...
One recitation of a psalm and a quote from Revelation is frequent?
And how does this prove Jesus is not coequal with God the Father?
 
MHalsey said:
One recitation of a psalm and a quote from Revelation is frequent?
And how does this prove Jesus is not coequal with God the Father?
Click to expand...
(Matthew 27:45-46) From the sixth hour on a darkness fell over all the land, until the ninth hour. 46*About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “E′li, E′li, la′ma sa·bach·tha′ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

(Mark 15:34) And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “E′li, E′li, la′ma sa·bach·tha′ni?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

(Revelation 3:2) Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God.

(Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him **the name of my God **and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

2 Questions:

How is it that Jesus has a God?
What is the name of his God he will write on those who conquer?
 
**I’ve always had trouble understanding how Jesus could so frequently mention “his God”.

If Jesus is Jehovah as this thread suggests, how does he have a “God” and what is the “name of his God” as Rev 3:12 says?

(Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Steve**

Hi Steve.
You have trouble with this because of your anti-Trinitarian beliefs so you cannot grasp what is being said.
Jesus Christ is by nature God. But since the incarnation,
he is ALSO fully human, a man. A man with a glorified resurrected human body. Not a purely natural human body anymore, because “flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God” but the same human body only transformed and spiritualized in ways that we cannot fully fathom but accept on faith. How do we know Jesus’ body was resurrected (although in a highly glorified form) ?? Simple. In John 2, Jesus tells the
people,
Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
But he was speaking of the temple of his BODY.

Now. Being fully divine and fully human, 2 natures wedded together in one person, Jesus, though in essence God, is also and forever more a glorified Man. As a Man, the Son of Man presented before the Throne of the Ancient of Days, Jesus can now accurately speak of the Father not only as “my Father” but, being also one of US, as MY GOD. In Christ has the word come fully and literally true that The Temple of God is with Mankind.

If the Word had never become a man, he would perhaps not refer to his Father as “His God.” But as a glorified man, it is perfectly fitting that he do so, because he is The Firstborn among
Many Brethren (us, his followers).

I hope I have provided a little clarity.
God bless you,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
If there is no Trinity, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. If Jesus is not God, then who is he? Why was he put to death? Would it be true that he was a blasphemer because he made himself God? Have Theologians and Christintians, including the Reformers been deluding ourselves for 2,000 years? Until Mormans and JWT came along in the 19th century? The early martyrs allowed themselves to be put to horrible deaths because of their belief in Jesus as God. Yet, Christianity flourished.

Yes, there was heresy in the early church, this is why there were Councils. There were MANY heresies, not just Arianism. There was Gnosticism, Nestorianism and many others which were practiced by some early Christians. Pick one of those to believe in and you will be practicing what SOME, even many early Christians practiced. That doesn’t make it right or true.

You didn’t need a council until a dispute came up. The Council addressed the dispute, and then we moved on. We don’t revisit what has been decided over and over again. The first council of the Catholic Church is the Council of Jerusalem. It is in Acts. It is about Judaizers. We have decided you don’t need to follow the Law of Moses in order to be baptized. That’s it. No more revisiting this issued, except perhaps to CLARIFY it.
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
Jesus, though in essence God, is also and forever more a glorified Man. … Jesus can now accurately speak of the Father not only as “my Father” but, being also one of US, as MY GOD… But as a glorified man, it is perfectly fitting that he do so, because he is The Firstborn among
Many Brethren (us, his followers).

So you see Jesus, right now, in heaven as a “glorified Man”, who is calling someone else “My God”?

And since Rev 3:12 refers to that “My God” as having a name, what would that be?

Steve
Click to expand...
 
**So you see Jesus, right now, in heaven as a “glorified Man”, who is calling someone else “My God”?

And since Rev 3:12 refers to that “My God” as having a name, what would that be?**

We cannot explain how Jesus has a glorified body in heaven.
It is a mystery, but we KNOW his body was resurrected because John Chapter 2 specifically tells us that Jesus was speaking of the resurrection of his body (which HE HIMSELF would raise, by the way. That’s what John 2 says. Do you deny it ? I hope not.

Jesus says that he has been given a New Name.
That name has not been revealed to those of us on earth, obviously. But it is a name given to him as the glorified God-Man.
I think those who are in heaven with him know that new name, but we are not sure of that either. That’s just my opinion.

I see no reason why Jesus can’t refer to his Father by the name Yahweh. But the name belongs to both of them by their common divine nature. On the other hand, Jesus MAY be calling his FATHER by a NEW name, too, we just don’t know. That hasn’t been revealed to us.

God bless you,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
BibleSteve said:
So you see Jesus, right now, in heaven as a “glorified Man”, who is calling someone else “My God”?

And since Rev 3:12 refers to that “My God” as having a name, what would that be?

Steve
Click to expand...
You are focusing on one thing said and disregard the rest. You neglected to address this part of the quote **Jesus, though in essence God, **is also and forever more a glorified Man.

Also, when talking to Mary after the resurrection, My God, your God can be tied to Ruth 1:16: But Ruth said, “Do not ask me to abandon or forsake you! for wherever you go I will go, wherever you lodge I will lodge, your people shall be my people, and your God my God.”

The other quotes are the same as before.
You have trouble with this because of your anti-Trinitarian beliefs so you cannot grasp what is being said.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
 
So no comment on why this glorified god/man Jesus is referring to someone else as “his God”? And no comment on “his God’s” name?

Why can Ruth say something like this and we all know she is talking about Jehovah, but when Jesus says it, no one will just say Jesus’ God was Jehovah?

Steve
 
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