JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

[Jaypeeto4]

**The point is that the Bible often says, YHWH is the “only” person that does something and then we find other occurances where other people are called by the exact same title. **

Steve, you have a half-valid point, but some statements are absolute. When Jehovah says in Isaiah that he ALONE created all things with his own hands, and then asks the very emphatic negative question, WHO WAS WITH ME? which is a Hebraism which means in answer ABSOLUTELY NO ONE WAS,
that statement is extremely strong.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit created the entire created order. The son is begotten by the Father, not created by the Father. He is monogenes which means literally the
only-generated one. He is generated of the Father’s own Divine essence from all eternity. He is not a creature.

To call someone the beginning of something doesn’t necessarily mean that he himself was created too. The beginning of the creation by God means the Source of all God’s creation, which harmonizes perfectly with the Apostle John’s statement in his gospel that “without Him (the Word), not one thing was made
THAT HAS BEEN MADE.” Jesus wasn’t made. He made all things. When one understands the Trinity doctrine, all these baffling scriptures fall beautifully and elegantly into place.

May God always grant you his grace,
Agape,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[qui_est_ce]

Dear Steve,
You just contradicted yourself. Jesus “breathed” (he did not blew-another messy translation) His Spirit on them (the Holy Spirit, the third person in one God) and said “Receive the Holy Spirit.” JESUS gave the apostles - the first Bishops the authority. This authority is called Apostolic Tradition, the laying on of hands. But it is only through the power of God (the three in one) that apostles and priests can forgive. They do not do so by their own power, but in God’s power.

The whole quote is about the authority Jesus has to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. All the Sacraments today are performed by the power and authority of the Holy Spirit working through men (humans).

Only God can create a miracle. Any miracle today is by the power of God, and not by the power of humans.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Jesus=God

Simple logic learned in Philosophy 101 or Geometry 101

I say the argument stands.

The argument seems reasonable at first glance. However, looking just a little deeper we see that Jesus authorized his apostles to forgive sin also. Certainly, when they forgave sin, it didn’t make them Jehovah, did it? Thus, the argument that Jesus **MUST **be God, because we forgave sin, falls apart.

(John 20:19-23) Therefore. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.” 22*And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.”

Just as Jesus authorized his apostles to forgive sin, Jesus had received that same authorization from his Father, Jehovah God…

(Mark 2:7-11) “Why is this man talking in this manner? He is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins except one, God?” 8But Jesus, having discerned immediately by his spirit that they were reasoning that way in themselves, said to them: “Why are YOU reasoning these things in YOUR hearts? 9Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and pick up your cot and walk’? 10*But in order for YOU men to know that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins upon the earth,”—he said to the paralytic: 11 “I say to you, Get up, pick up your cot, and go to your home.”

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

If you look up the scriptures in your Catholic Bible, you will see that YHWH says he is the only Savior. However, we see he sent people to do his saving work for him and they were called saviors.

The point is that the Bible often says, YHWH is the “only” person that does something and then we find other occurances where other people are called by the exact same title.

Check it out in your own Bible.

Steve

So, if these titles are common for others, how does that bolster Jehovah’s image? If Jehovah is a savior and Othaniel is a savior, what’s so special about Jehovah being a savior? And you could compare other titles with other individuals and ask the same question. Now, if the saviorship of Jehovah is different from that of Othniel, why is the saviorship of Jesus not also different from that of Othniel? Also, if Jehovah forgives sin and we can forgive sin, how does that make Jehovah special?

 

[BibleSteve]

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Jesus=God

Simple logic learned in Philosophy 101 or Geometry 101

I say the argument stands.

If this argument make sense to you, you shouldn’t mind including the scripture I showed the Apostles were authorized to forgive sin.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Apostles forgives sin
Apostles=Jesus=God

Thus, not logical, so the premise of “he who forgives sin MUST be God doesn’t work”

Steve

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

If this argument make sense to you, you shouldn’t mind including the scripture I showed the Apostles were authorized to forgive sin.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Apostles forgives sin
Apostles=Jesus=God

Thus, not logical, so the premise of “he who forgives sin MUST be God doesn’t work”

Steve

Steve, keep it in context and this point is answered before you even brought it up again:

Dear Steve,
You just contradicted yourself. Jesus “breathed” (he did not blew-another messy translation) His Spirit on them (the Holy Spirit, the third person in one God) and said “Receive the Holy Spirit.” JESUS gave the apostles - the first Bishops the authority. This authority is called Apostolic Tradition, the laying on of hands. But it is only through the power of God (the three in one) that apostles and priests can forgive. They do not do so by their own power, but in God’s power.

The whole quote is about the authority Jesus has to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. All the Sacraments today are performed by the power and authority of the Holy Spirit working through men (humans).

Only God can create a miracle. Any miracle today is by the power of God, and not by the power of humans.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Jesus=God

Simple logic learned in Philosophy 101 or Geometry 101

I say the argument stands.

Ravyn

 

[BibleSteve]

So, if these titles are common for others, how does that bolster Jehovah’s image? If Jehovah is a savior and Othaniel is a savior, what’s so special about Jehovah being a savior? And you could compare other titles with other individuals and ask the same question. Now, if the saviorship of Jehovah is different from that of Othniel, why is the saviorship of Jesus not also different from that of Othniel? Also, if Jehovah forgives sin and we can forgive sin, how does that make Jehovah special?

Good question. Jehovah is Almighty God. He is the very top. In achieving his purposes, he uses men, angels, and even his own Son, to accomplish them.

It’s basic delegation. If CEO delegates to a VP, who delegates to Directors and the purpose is accomplished, the CEO as the ultimate authority is given credit. Each person down the chain is speaking and working in behalf of the persons above them. For example Rev 1:1 God gave message to Jesus, who gave it to the angel, who gave it to John, who gave it to the congregations.

Jehovah said he was the only Savior, and then he accomplished this saving by sending the human judges. Credit goes to Jehovah as the ultimate Savior

Jehovah provided the much greater salvation by providing his Son (John 3:16). “God… gave his Son…so everyone… have everlasting life”

The human “saviors” and even Jesus himself acknowledged that Jehovah is their God, by calling him “my God” (Rev 3:12)

Heb 1:1, 2 God spoke to use by prophets and by a Son.

Steve

 

[qui_est_ce]

Jesus and the Holy Trinity are not CEO basic delegations or VP’s. Each person down the chain is not speaking on behalf. It is the Holy Spirit who is speaking THROUGH. And that is what you don’t get. Your “purpose accomplished” is not an ends in itself. The Holy Spirit is the moving factor that Jesus Christ left to the world. For Heaven’s Sake our faith is not about “purpose accomplished!” Jesus LOVES us and breathed the Holy Spirit into us to continue His work.

You quote Scripture, but what you quote is so alien to the verses I have been raised in. The words are changed, inserted, changing the meaning. Where did you learn this Bible you are quoting? It is quite different than the one the scholars I grew up with over the centuries use.

Good question. Jehovah is Almighty God. He is the very top. In achieving his purposes, he uses men, angels, and even his own Son, to accomplish them.

It’s basic delegation. If CEO delegates to a VP, who delegates to Directors and the purpose is accomplished, the CEO as the ultimate authority is given credit. Each person down the chain is speaking and working in behalf of the persons above them. For example Rev 1:1 God gave message to Jesus, who gave it to the angel, who gave it to John, who gave it to the congregations.

The human “saviors” and even Jesus himself acknowledged that Jehovah is their God, by calling him “my God” (Rev 3:12)

Heb 1:1, 2 God spoke to use by prophets and by a Son.

Steve

 

[MH84]

Jesus cried “Father, into Your hands I commend My Spirit”.

Later in Acts of the Apostles:

{7:56} And they, crying out with a loud voice, stopped their ears and with one accord ran violently upon him.
{7:57} And casting him forth without the city. they stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul.
{7:58} And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
{7:59} And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not his sin to their charge: And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

www.sacredbible.org

 

[mikeledes]

Vewy Intwesting.

First of all, Hebrews identified Jesus as the subject of the Psalm. And the subject of that Psalm is God. Secondly, God alone created everything:

Isaiah 44:24

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?

Here God explicitly states that he created by Himself. There is no mention of an assistant creator. He even asks “Who was with me?” The obvious answer is no one. However, according to Jehovah’s Witness theology, the angel named Michael was there.

Thirdly, you did not respond to the verse from Ephesians.

God Bless,
Michael

Biblesteve, if God created everthing through a creature named Jesus, then you are directly contradicting what God Himself has said about creation. He said he did it BY HIMSELF. He even asks “who was with me?” Here is another verse:

Isaiah 48:12-13

**12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. 13 Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they may keep standing together. **

Now let’s look at Hebrews 1:10-12

**And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.” **

Again Hebrews is not identifying Jesus as a represetative of God. It is saying that the heavens and the earth are the works of Jesus’s hands. And yet God asserts that everything created is the work of HIS OWN HANDS and that he did it BY HIMSELF. And like I said earlier, Hebrews clearly states that the subject of Psalm 102:25-27 is Jesus and the subject of that Psalm is God. Now add to that the “My Lord and My God”, the fact that Jesus identifies Himself to John using a title that belongs to God (i.e.“the first and the last.”), and that God Himself has said that there are no "gods together with Him and that He created everything by Himself. The evidence is pretty clear.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Colossians 1:16, 17 in the NWT is often criticized. This non-JW author reviews the issue and concludes the NWT is being unfairly criticized:

tetragrammaton.org/truthintrans.htm

Scroll down and review Chapter 7:

" Yet in many public forums on Bible translation, the practice of these four [we are showing only two of the four] translations is rarely if ever pointed to or criticized, while the NWT is attacked for adding the innocuous other in a way that clearly indicated its character as an addition of the translators. Why is that so? The reason is that many readers apparently want the passage to mean what the NIV and TEV try to make it mean.** That is, they don’t want to accept the obvious and clear sense of firstborn of creation as identifying Jesus as of creation.** Other is obnoxious to them because it draws attention to the fact that Jesus is of creation and so when Jesus acts with respect to all things he is actually acting with respect to all other things. But the NWT is correct. . . ."

Wrong! The “firstbborn of creation” is not a reference to the fact that Jesus was the first to be created. A text out of context is a pretext. If you actually read the passage, it explains what “firstborn of craetion” means:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 BECAUSE by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

He is the firstborn of creation because it is through Him that all things were created, and hence he has preeminence over creation. By His death and ressurrection, he is also the “firstborn of the dead” and hence has preeminence over that as well.

Colossians 1:18-19

He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him

To be first is to have preeminence. “Firstborn” in this passage means to have a place of honor, preeminence over. For example, God made David “firstborn.”

Psalm 89:27

**27 Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn,
The most high of the kings of the earth. **

Jesus is firstborn over creation because all things came to be through him and thus, by right, he is preeminent over all creation. The creator always has preeminence over his creation. He is firstborn over the dead because by His death and resurrection he has defeated the forces of sin and death and thus has preeminence over them.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Steve, may I ask you something?
We have spent so much time on this thread about the Deity of Christ, that we have yet to really discuss in any depth the Holy Spirit.
I know that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is
God’s “active force” through which he accomplishes his actions.
Let me ask your belief about this:
Do you believe that there was ever a time in all of Jehovah’s
living existence that Jehovah has been WITHOUT his Holy Spirit?
Do you believe that Jehovah’s Holy Spirit has always existed?
I know that Jehovah’s Witness literature comes up with all kinds of attempts to explain away the fact that scripture repeatedly refers to the Holy Spirit as a “He.” They call it literary personification. Okay, but what about Acts chapter 13.
I am quoting from the Revised Standard Version, 2nd Catholic Edition published by Ignatius Press. Beginning at verse one of Acts chapter 13 we read,
Now in the Church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said,
“Set apart for ME Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off. So, being sent out BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, they went down to Seleucia; and from there they sailed to Cyprus/

What is interesting here (as well as other places in the Scriptures) is that here the Holy Spirit speaks directly to the assembled brethren. He tells them, Set apart for “ME” Barnabas and Saul for the work to which “I” have called them.

Now Luke, the author of the book of Acts under inspiration, clearly says that the Holy Spirit himself spoke to the Apostles identifying himself as I and Me and giving them a direct command.
Steve, if as you believe the early Christians felt that the Spirit was just God’s Active Force, devoid of intelligence, why in the world would Luke, under inspiration, state what he stated??
Why would Luke say, While they were fasting and praying,
Jehovah said (or Jesus said), Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" and "So they, being sent out by the Lord (or “by Jehovah” or “by Jesus”). Why would Luke say that the Holy Spirit specifically spoke, and identified himself as I and Me, etc., if the Holy Spirit was just an unintelligent active force?

We and you both acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is pure Spirit.
You acknowlege that God is pure Spirit.
God is intelligent.
Why do you believe that the Holy Spirit of necessity is
simply an unintelligent active force? Where does Scripture demand that we believe the Holy Spirit to be an unintelligent active force?? And has God EVER been without his Spirit?

Your thoughts?
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not mind your adding the Scripture, I do mind your incorrect interpretions.

As long as you continue to ignore answers to the “questions” you pose, this debate will not be honest. You ask a question and do not address the answer. Instead you come up with another “quote” from your NWB to prove yourself. We should stick to one argument at a time instead of throwing red herrings all over the place.

Please address your own scripture quote which reads “Jesus blowed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit.” Who is the Holy Spirit? Most theolgians, including St. Augustin will tell you that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.

It is true that the early Church squelched Arianism and other heresies, because it deemed them incorrect interpretations of the message of Jesus. If you want to believe them, you are welcome to. But I and most Catholics finished this debate about 2,000 years ago. The JW’s came along in the 19th century and resurrected one, possibly two of them (Arianism being one).

To pretend the NWV is common ground with other versions is a false premise. Unless you argue with generally accepted versions which try to find truth, you cannot debate with Christians. NWV has deliberately altered text to fit their own views. This is fact.

Jesus gave the authority to the Church by handing the keys to Peter. The Chuch is not a man-made institution. She does not teach by rationalism, but by the Word of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Your agenda of trying to proseltize to us in a Catholic Forum has done nothing but to increase our knowledge of our Holy Catholic fatih, and to expose the false doctrine which the JW’s preach.

If you don’t want to believe the early Church Fathers, just say so and be done with it. You are only hurting your cause by continuing in this forum.

If this argument make sense to you, you shouldn’t mind including the scripture I showed the Apostles were authorized to forgive sin.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Apostles forgives sin
Apostles=Jesus=God

Thus, not logical, so the premise of “he who forgives sin MUST be God doesn’t work”

Steve

Steve, keep it in context and this point is answered before you even brought it up again:

Ravyn

Dear Steve,
You just contradicted yourself. Jesus “breathed” (he did not blew-another messy translation) His Spirit on them (the Holy Spirit, the third person in one God) and said “Receive the Holy Spirit.” JESUS gave the apostles - the first Bishops the authority. This authority is called Apostolic Tradition, the laying on of hands. But it is only through the power of God (the three in one) that apostles and priests can forgive. They do not do so by their own power, but in God’s power.

The whole quote is about the authority Jesus has to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. All the Sacraments today are performed by the power and authority of the Holy Spirit working through men (humans).

Only God can create a miracle. Any miracle today is by the power of God, and not by the power of humans.

Only God forgives sin
Jesus forgives sin
Jesus=God

Simple logic learned in Philosophy 101 or Geometry 101

I say the argument stands.

 

[BibleSteve]

I do not mind your adding the Scripture, I do mind your incorrect interpretions.

As long as you continue to ignore answers to the “questions” you pose, this debate will not be honest. You ask a question and do not address the answer. Instead you come up with another “quote” from your NWB to prove yourself. We should stick to one argument at a time instead of throwing red herrings all over the place.

Dear qui est ce,

I appreciate you contributing to this discussion. You may note there are 5, 6, 7+ people arguing the pro-Trinity side and only 1 of me. So, I’m answering their questions, comments, and arguments as fast as I can.

When someone presents an argument that supposedly “proves” Jesus is Jehovah, I’m simply pointing out why Scripture shows this is a false conclusion.

For example, when you say your argument is based on simple Logic 101, I point out you’ve miss a very basic tenent of logic:

Let’s do this again, more slowly.

You present a “given”: Only God can forgive sins.
And then use that “given” to say…
Only God forgives sins
Jesus forgives sins
Therefore, Jesus must be God.

Logic 101 will test that “given”, to see if there are any other Bible examples of someone forgiving sins who obviously isn’t God. I pointed out a scripture you can look at in your own Catholic Bible that shows the Apostles were given authority to forgive sin.

Since, they could forgive sin, the whole premise of your argument doesn’t work. The “given” that only God can forgive sins is proved to be incorrect. The scribes and Pharasees reasoned that only God could forgive sin, but in fact, the Apostles could do this. They had given authority to do so, just like Jesus had.

So, an argument based on a faulty “given”, really shouldn’t be used to prove that Jesus is God. A Bible student should look to verses that speak to the question more clearly. Like Rev 3:12, which shows Jesus speaking of him having his own God. Go to Rev 3:12 in your Catholic Bible and read what Jesus said. Multiple times he referred to “my God”, and that his God had a name.

Thank you again for you contribution to this conversation.

 

[mikeledes]

Multiple times he referred to “my God”, and that his God had a name.

With the acquisition of a human (i.e.) nature after the incarnation, Jesus can say both “My God” and that “I am God.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[MHalsey]

Dear qui est ce,

I appreciate you contributing to this discussion. You may note there are 5, 6, 7+ people arguing the pro-Trinity side and only 1 of me. So, I’m answering their questions, comments, and arguments as fast as I can.

When someone presents an argument that supposedly “proves” Jesus is Jehovah, I’m simply pointing out why Scripture shows this is a false conclusion.

For example, when you say your argument is based on simple Logic 101, I point out you’ve miss a very basic tenent of logic:

Let’s do this again, more slowly.

You present a “given”: Only God can forgive sins.
And then use that “given” to say…
Only God forgives sins
Jesus forgives sins
Therefore, Jesus must be God.

Logic 101 will test that “given”, to see if there are any other Bible examples of someone forgiving sins who obviously isn’t God. I pointed out a scripture you can look at in your own Catholic Bible that shows the Apostles were given authority to forgive sin.

Since, they could forgive sin, the whole premise of your argument doesn’t work. The “given” that only God can forgive sins is proved to be incorrect. The scribes and Pharasees reasoned that only God could forgive sin, but in fact, the Apostles could do this. They had given authority to do so, just like Jesus had.

So, an argument based on a faulty “given”, really shouldn’t be used to prove that Jesus is God. A Bible student should look to verses that speak to the question more clearly. Like Rev 3:12, which shows Jesus speaking of him having his own God. Go to Rev 3:12 in your Catholic Bible and read what Jesus said. Multiple times he referred to “my God”, and that his God had a name.

Thank you again for you contribution to this conversation.

You missed something here, Steve. It’s only after they receive the Holy Spirit that they’re given authority to forgive sins. This was pointed out in an earlier post.

 

[BibleSteve]

With the acquisition of a human (i.e.) nature after the incarnation, Jesus can say both “My God” and that “I am God.”

And can you please point me to a scripture where **Jesus **says “I am God”?

I can’t find one, but I do see him calling himself “Son of God” many, many times.

Steve

 

[MHalsey]

With the acquisition of a human (i.e.) nature after the incarnation, Jesus can say both “My God” and that “I am God.”

God Bless,
Michael

Michael, this was answered by Jay a few days ago. Why Steve insists on bringing it up again, I don’t know.

 

[BibleSteve]

You missed something here, Steve. It’s only after they receive the Holy Spirit that they’re given authority to forgive sins. This was pointed out in an earlier post.

Yes, I agree, their receiving authority to forgive sins was associated with them recieving the Holy Spirit.

Now, since they could forgive sins, is it fair to say that “Only God can forgive sin”?

Steve

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not present that only God can forgive sin as a “given” The Jews at the time of Jesus believed this and that is why they called him a blasphemer.

Jesus was addressing the Jews. The Jews were outraged becase they knew only God can forgive sins. Therefore they called Jesus a blasphmer.

Many of the arguments you make are based on your own (JW) interpretations instead of what the biblical authors were trying to say. The only way to know what the authors meant is to look at the audience Jesus was addressing.

 

[Bishopite]

The Watchtower comments there is no specific scripture that says that, however, they provide an “implied” argument, that various scriptures point to Jesus.

It is a subjective conclusion. I have provided the reasoning in another thread under Jesus/Michael Archangel… please do a search.

I don’t debate things like this as they are subjective vs. objective.

Steve

Your claim (quoting Christian theologians) that the Trinity isn’t explicitly taught in Scripture but implicit can be just as true as the Michael Archangel/Jesus WT claim, since you say it is implicit within Scripture (I believe it is nowhere found neither do historical Christian writings. And as I said earlier, implicit truth is just as true as explicit truth yet you deny the Trinity even on implicit grounds.
The idea that Michael the Archangel is Jesus is purely subjective being their really is NO objective support for it, it is a creation from the WT. The Trinity however, has deep historical roots within the writings of the early church fathers, which is objective evidence.