JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

[Randy_Carson]

Proving to Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus is God

Step 1:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 1:8:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the one who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Who is ‘the Alpha and the Omega’ in this passage?”

They will respond that He is Jehovah God since that is what the verse says. You’re just nailing this down.

Step 2:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 21:6-7:

“And he said to me, ‘They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Who is the 'Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega’ in this passage?”

They will respond again that he is Jehovah God. Again, you’re just nailing this idea down.

Step 3:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 22:12-13:

“Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

b. Optional—you can Point out that verse 16 says, “I, Jesus…” The Witness may say that in verse 16, the speaker changes—that’s OK. You’re just making connections that they have to explain somehow.

c. Ask the Witness, “Who is the ‘the First and the Last’ in this passage?”

They must answer, “Jehovah God” since “the first and the last” is also “the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.”

Step 4:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 1:17-18:

"And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of Death and of Hades.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Previously, you said that ‘the first and the last” is Jehovah God…this passage says that ‘the First and the Last’ became dead.”

"So, when did Jehovah God die?"

Here’s the logic in visual form:

Jehovah God = Alpha and Omega = Beginning and End = First and Last = the Living One who “became dead” = Jesus who was crucified and resurrected.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[paarsurrey]

Proving to Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus is God

Step 1:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 1:8:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the one who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Who is ‘the Alpha and the Omega’ in this passage?”

They will respond that He is Jehovah God since that is what the verse says. You’re just nailing this down.

Step 2:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 21:6-7:

“And he said to me, ‘They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Who is the 'Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega’ in this passage?”

They will respond again that he is Jehovah God. Again, you’re just nailing this idea down.

Step 3:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 22:12-13:

“Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

b. Optional—you can Point out that verse 16 says, “I, Jesus…” The Witness may say that in verse 16, the speaker changes—that’s OK. You’re just making connections that they have to explain somehow.

c. Ask the Witness, “Who is the ‘the First and the Last’ in this passage?”

They must answer, “Jehovah God” since “the first and the last” is also “the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.”

Step 4:

a. Ask the Witness to read Revelation 1:17-18:

"And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of Death and of Hades.”

b. Ask the Witness, “Previously, you said that ‘the first and the last” is Jehovah God…this passage says that ‘the First and the Last’ became dead.”

"So, when did Jehovah God die?"

Here’s the logic in visual form:

Jehovah God = Alpha and Omega = Beginning and End = First and Last = the Living One who “became dead” = Jesus who was crucified and resurrected.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Hi
Is there some JWs here? if there is one, please respond.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

 

[BibleSteve]

Fundamentally, Randy’s argument is that if two people share the same title, they must be the same person. Is this true? Or, is this flawed logic?

Let’s see…

Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12)

Hmmm… Looks like “Title Matching” doesn’t work.

Instead of looking to “Title Match” through multiple levels to try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah God, why not just look at scriptures that obviously show them to be different persons? Psa 110:1-5 shows Jehovah talking to Jesus, asking him to sit by his side, while Acts 3:13 shows Jehovah viewing Jesus as his Servant. Thus, Jesus is not Jehovah.

(Psalm 110:1-5) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” 3Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops. 4Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): “You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek!” 5Jehovah himself at your right hand Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.

(Acts 3:13) The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him.

Steve

 

[BibleSteve]

Another very popular line of (flawed) logic is to note that Jehovah is called “savior” and Jesus is also called “savior”, thus Jesus must be Jehovah.

Here’s some simple reasoning to show that “Title Matching” doesn’t work to prove two persons are the same…

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?

Note that at Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi′a‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

Or does it?

Steve

 

[BibleSteve]

And just one more example to show that “Title Matching” doesn’t hold to basic logic…

The expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)

Steve

 

[paarsurrey]

Fundamentally, Randy’s argument is that if two people share the same title, they must be the same person. Is this true? Or, is this flawed logic?

Let’s see…

Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12)

Hmmm… Looks like “Title Matching” doesn’t work.

Instead of looking to “Title Match” through multiple levels to try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah God, why not just look at scriptures that obviously show them to be different persons? Psa 110:1-5 shows Jehovah talking to Jesus, asking him to sit by his side, while Acts 3:13 shows Jehovah viewing Jesus as his Servant. Thus, Jesus is not Jehovah.

(Psalm 110:1-5) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” 3Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops. 4Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): “You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek!” 5Jehovah himself at your right hand Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.

(Acts 3:13) The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him.

Steve

Hi
Reasonable arguments indeed.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Fundamentally, Randy’s argument is that if two people share the same title, they must be the same person. Is this true? Or, is this flawed logic?

Looking over your work, it appears you overlooked a serious factor. Your examples reference separate books and in different contexts, whereas the evidence Randy posted above is from the SAME book with the SAME theme.

Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12)

The title “king of kings” means the highest ruler, in the case of Neb, at the time he was the greatest but it was clear it was only an earthly and temporal kingdom:37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. …
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. -Dan 2

12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." -Rev 14

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
… 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
-Rev 19
Notice the contrast, the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” is in the context of the NT a divine and final authority.
Now for the “light of the world” claim:13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
-Matt 5:14

3Through him [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. -Jn1

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” -Jn 8

4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." -Jn 9
Again, note the distinction, Jesus is talking to the Apostles in the first case, where as in the second He makes it clear He is the light of the world in which others get their source.

Looks like “Title Matching” doesn’t work.

No, you are drawing from different books and different contexts. You have no grounds to brush off Randy’s work.

(cont)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Instead of looking to “Title Match” through multiple levels to try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah God, why not just look at scriptures that obviously show them to be different persons? Psa 110:1-5 shows Jehovah talking to Jesus, asking him to sit by his side, while Acts 3:13 shows Jehovah viewing Jesus as his Servant. Thus, Jesus is not Jehovah.

No, you dont understand the Trinity, they are distinct persons with the same divine nature (eg Col 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”). Jesus took the role of the servant, but did NOT give up His divinity (eg Phil 2:5-11, Heb 1:1-5).

Another very popular line of (flawed) logic is to note that Jehovah is called “savior” and Jesus is also called “savior”, thus Jesus must be Jehovah.

Here’s some simple reasoning to show that “Title Matching” doesn’t work to prove two persons are the same…

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?

Note that at Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi′a‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

No, again you are ripping things out of context and different books. The NT only distinguishes Jesus as savior, and in a profound way:
3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, 4To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. -Titus 1

10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ -Titus 2

4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, -Titus 3
Steve, I hope you consider this evidence fairly and I pray that your eyes may be opened.

 

[BibleSteve]

Dear Catholic Dude,

I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

I would say I do understand the Trinity, because I’ve spent the better part of 30 years, reading pro-Trinity, anti-non-Trinitarian books to ensure I have seen and heard every possible argument for the Trinity.

That’s how important it is to me to understand if the Trinity is true or false.

If someone said to me that Jesus is called by some title and then someone else is called by the same title, thus proving they are the same person, I’d say, No, that is a violation of common logic, because two people can share the same title without being the same person.

I have given multiple examples of that from the Bible.

The argument provided at the beginning of this thread was based on “title matching”.

Specifically…

Jehovah God = Title 1 = Title 2 = Title 3 = Title 4 = Jesus Christ.

With the conclusion that Jehovah God = Jesus Christ.

The logic is not correct.

I should specific examples where title matching doesn’t work.

And, I showed specific examples where Jehovah God is not Jesus Christ.

Steve

 

[BibleSteve]

If the intent is to prove that Jehovah God = Jesus Christ why not just look specifically at Psa 110:1-5 or Acts 3:13?

Let’s assume for a moment assume that Randy is correct and Jehovah God = Jesus Christ because of “title matching”.

Psa 110:1-5 becomes “Jehovah God said to Jehovah God, sit at my right hand…”

Acts 3:13 becomes “Jehovah God glorified his servant Jehovah God.”

At the very least, can you see why some people would think this idea of Jesus being Jehovah God was illogical?

Steve

 

[BibleSteve]

I believe one of the reasons that people get confused about the book of Revelation is because they overlook two key scriptures:

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:16. I’ll quote them here. Please note the “message chain”…

(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

(Revelation 22:16) “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”

The originator of the message was “God”, who gave it to “Jesus Christ” to show his slaves what must shortly take place. But Jesus wasn’t the one who was going to speak directly to John for “God”… he passed the message to “his angel” who presented to John.

So, the only person who really talked to John throughout the entire book of Revelation was the “angel”, who was speaking in “first person” for Jesus and “God”

Now, re-read the book of Revelation and everytime you see Jesus or Jehovah God speaking, remember it actually the angel speaking for them. The angel was saying “I am the Alpha and Omega”… “I am the First and the Last”.

We certainly wouldn’t think the angel was somehow Jesus or God…

Since the angel was speaking for Jesus, and Jesus was speaking for Jehovah God, it’s easy to get confused on certain scriptures.

Title Matching, whether in a single book, or throughout the Bible is not a 100% method for proving Jesus Christ = Jehovah God.

Psa 110:1-5 and Acts 3:13 are far more explicit for discussing that point.

Steve

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Dear Catholic Dude,

I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

I would say I do understand the Trinity, because I’ve spent the better part of 30 years, reading pro-Trinity, anti-non-Trinitarian books to ensure I have seen and heard every possible argument for the Trinity.

That’s how important it is to me to understand if the Trinity is true or false.

If someone said to me that Jesus is called by some title and then someone else is called by the same title, thus proving they are the same person, I’d say, No, that is a violation of common logic, because two people can share the same title without being the same person.

Steve

Surely if you have studied the Trinity indepthly as you claim, then you know that God the Father and God the Son are two separate persons and not the same person. We claim that two Persons indeed share the same titles. Yahweh is shepherd in Ps. 23:1; Jesus is the Good Shepherd in John 10:14. Yahweh is Savior in Is. 43:11; Jesus is Savior of the world in John 4:42. Yahweh is Light in Ps. 27:1; Jesus is Light of the world in John 8:12. Yahweh is Lord in Is. 40:3; Jesus is Lord in Rom. 10:9. Two distinct Persons, having the same Titles. Now if others share those titles in the very same sense as the Father and the Son, what makes Yahweh or Jehovah and Jesus unique with their titles?

 

[BibleSteve]

Surely if you have studied the Trinity indepthly as you claim, then you know that God the Father and God the Son are two separate persons and not the same person. …what makes Yahweh or Jehovah and Jesus unique with their titles?

Dear Claude,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I personally haven’t found the term “God the Son” in the Bible. I believe that is phrase that has been invented. I’ve seen plenty of God the Father’s, but no “God the Son’s”.

Secondly, this thread started by attempting to prove that Jesus was Jehovah God because they have the same title. I sense you disagree with Randy?

Should Jesus be viewed as Jehovah God? How do you understand Psa 110:1-5 and Acts 3:13

Steve

 

[Randy_Carson]

Fundamentally, Randy’s argument is that if two people share the same title, they must be the same person. Is this true? Or, is this flawed logic?

Let’s see…

Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12)

Light of the world is a metaphor. “Alpha and Omega, first and last” is not.

Hmmm… Looks like “Title Matching” doesn’t work.

Title matching?

Revelation 1:17 sez:

“I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead,”

Can there be two firsts and two lasts? Again, if Jehovah God is the first and the last, then when did Jehovah God become dead?

And since when do angels (Michael included) share titles with the God who created them anyway?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Yes, Jesus should be viewed as Jehovah God.
Psalm 110, Yahweh said to My Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstood for your feet,
is referring to the incarnation of God the Word of God as FLESH and his subsequent crucifixion and Glorification.
David wrote this Psalm, and he recognized only ONE Lord, Jehovah God himself. Never did David write a Psalm saying that the archangel Michael was his Lord.

The evidence for the trinity in scripture is overwhelming.
John Chapter 8:58, Jesus, in the vicinity of the temple,
says to the Jews,
Amen, Amen, I say unto you,
Before Abraham ever was, I AM.
Now what gives this it’s certainty as a claim by Jesus to be of the same divine nature as the Father, and that he actually said,
I AM and NOT “I have been”, is the fact that the Jews immediately took up stones to stone him for blasphemy.
They knew what he said and the context in which he said it.
Rather than telling them to calm down by saying they misunderstood what he meant, Jesus simply left the area.
He did not have to leave the area. He could simply have caused the stones to fall out of the people’s hands. He worked many miracles much more miraculous than something like that.
No, he knew how the Jews understood him and he did not try to correct any “mistunderstanding” on their part, but simply left having made that bold declaration.
And by the way, Jews don’t stone people just because they may stupidly claim to be a very, very old being (“I have been”).
They tried to stone him for saying before Abraham came INTO existence, I AM. In Greek this is EGO EIMI, a very, very, very strong affirmation of I AM. EIMI alone means “I am”
Putting EGO in front of EIMI is extremely emphatic way of saying that you are absolutely timeless, i.e. eternal, eternal past, eternal present, eternal future. Only Yahweh can say that. Jesus said it.
And that’s just ONE CLEAR example from scripture.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Dear Catholic Dude,

I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

I would say I do understand the Trinity, because I’ve spent the better part of 30 years, reading pro-Trinity, anti-non-Trinitarian books to ensure I have seen and heard every possible argument for the Trinity.

That’s how important it is to me to understand if the Trinity is true or false.

If someone said to me that Jesus is called by some title and then someone else is called by the same title, thus proving they are the same person, I’d say, No, that is a violation of common logic, because two people can share the same title without being the same person.

Steve

Surely if you have studied the Trinity indepthly as you claim, then you know that God the Father and God the Son are two separate persons and not the same person. We claim that two Persons indeed share the same titles. Yahweh is shepherd in Ps. 23:1; Jesus is the Good Shepherd in John 10:14. Yahweh is Savior in Is. 43:11; Jesus is Savior of the world in John 4:42. Yahweh is Light in Ps. 27:1; Jesus is Light of the world in John 8:12. Yahweh is Lord in Is. 40:3; Jesus is Lord in Rom. 10:9. Two distinct Persons, having the same Titles. Now if others share those titles in the very same sense as the Father and the Son, what makes Yahweh or Jehovah and Jesus unique with their titles?

 

[BibleSteve]

The evidence for the trinity in scripture is overwhelming.

Over whelming evidence for the Trinity? Not really.

I do see a few scriptures that are somewhat ambiguous and hard to understand that have lead to some confusion. I can understand the confusion for some people.

But, saying the evidence of the Trinity is overwhelming is really stretching it beyond reasonability.

Several other sources would agree with me also:

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.

If the evidence was overwhelming, I wouldn’t expect “long controversies”… it would have been clear cut.

Steve

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Dear Catholic Dude,

I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

I would say I do understand the Trinity, because I’ve spent the better part of 30 years, reading pro-Trinity, anti-non-Trinitarian books to ensure I have seen and heard every possible argument for the Trinity.

No offense, but you either read the wrong books or misunderstood because you made previous comments like the following: “just look at scriptures that obviously show them to be different persons”. What you are describing is the modalist/Sabellian heresy because your comments indicate we Catholics believe the Son and Father are the same person (we dont). They are two distinct persons, so your comments tell me you have been misinformed.

That’s how important it is to me to understand if the Trinity is true or false.

I am glad you are concerned.

If someone said to me that Jesus is called by some title and then someone else is called by the same title,** thus proving they are the same person**, I’d say, No, that is a violation of common logic, because two people can share the same title without being the same person.

The part in bold is incorrect. Again, I dont know what theological texts you have been reading but what you are talking about is heretical (Modalism) and not Catholicism.

I have given multiple examples of that from the Bible.

The argument provided at the beginning of this thread was based on “title matching”.

Specifically…

Jehovah God = Title 1 = Title 2 = Title 3 = Title 4 = Jesus Christ.

With the conclusion that Jehovah God = Jesus Christ.

The logic is not correct.

I should specific examples where title matching doesn’t work.

And, I showed specific examples where Jehovah God is not Jesus Christ.

How so? You merely jumped around the Scriptures and didnt address the actual quotes in the book of Revelation itself. The “Alpha and Omega” “beginning and end” “first and the last”, etc titles are very significant, they all mean the same thing and are a reference to omnipotence and eternity.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

In other words, if Nebuchadnezzar is the “king of kings” in Dan. 2:37 and Jehovah is the king of kings in 1 Tim. 4:16 and if Othniel is a savior in Judges 3:9 and Jehovah is a savior in Is. 43:11 and if Cyrus is a shepherd in Isaiah 44:28 and Jehovah is there anything that makes Jehovah’s titles unique?

 

[Bishopite]

BibleSteve;2298833]Another very popular line of (flawed) logic is to note that Jehovah is called “savior” and Jesus is also called “savior”, thus Jesus must be Jehovah.

What’s flawed is you using the title Savior only and not taking into account that Jesus is known not just as Savior but “Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14) means “God with us” and forgave sin, and accepted worship, and called Himself the “I am”
He also claimed not only to be God, but posessed the attributes of which only God Himself is entitled…
In the Old Testament God said to Moses, “I Am who I Am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ’ I Am has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).
In the New Testament in the Gospel of John, Jesus refers to himself as “I Am” which is the Divine name of God (John 8:58). The Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God, so they tried to stone Jesus.

"John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Here we see that

THE WORD = GOD

John 1:14, 15
This passage confirms that the word is Jesus: “The Word became flesh, and made His dwelling among us, and we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him…” Here we see that

JESUS = THE WORD

Simple logic declares that if A=B and B=C then A=C. Therefore, since

JESUS = THE WORD and
THE WORD = GOD, then
JESUS = GOD

John 1:18
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

Titus 2:13
“Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”
Jesus possesses attributes that only belong to God
He is omnipresent (Mt. 18:20; 28:20; Acts 18:10) omniscient (Mt. 16:21; Lk. 11:17; Jn. 4:29), omnipotent (Mt. 8:26, 27; 28:18; Jn. 11:38-44; Lk 7:14-15; Rev. 1:8), and self existent (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58). Only God has these attributes, so if Jesus also has them, He must be God. God says in Isaiah 46:9 “There is no one like Me.”
Jesus is Creator of the universe
“All things came into being by Him, and apart form Him nothing came into being that has come into being”–John 1:3. “For by Him all things were created…all thins have been created by Him and for Him”–Colossians 1:16. Since God says that He was alone when He created the world, Jesus must be God: “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone”–Isaiah 44:24.
Jesus forgives sin
This is evidenced in Mark 2:5 and Luke 7:48. By Jewish law, this was something that only God could do. In Mark 2:7, the scribes say, “He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” I may be able to forgive someone for sins committed against me, but never for sins they commit against God, and this is what Jesus claimed to do. But only God can forgive sins that are committed against Him. So,

1. Only God can forgive sins committed against Himself (and all sins are against God).
2. Jesus forgave people for their sins, which were against God; therefore,
3. Jesus must be God"
   geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/jcevidence.html
   That’s logic.

Here’s some simple reasoning to show that “Title Matching” doesn’t work to prove two persons are the same…

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?

Note that at Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi′a‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

Or does it?

Steve

First of all, your logic is again flawed since you are strictly using the word “savior” in the universal salvific sense only and as we know in our modern vernacular we can use the word “savior” in a sense which doesn’t depict that “person” as being the Savior of the world. It’s NOT an either or presuposition that is your flawed logic. If a fireman saves a little girl from a burning building and after she is revived, she says about the fireman, “he is my savior” obviously we know that the fireman isn’t the Messiah, don’t we.
Obviously, Othniel isn’t anywhere to be seen in the New Testament nor ever making the plethora of claims as did Jesus Christ therefore “logically” we know he is NOT God nor equal to Him; Jesus shows Himself as equal to God.