JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

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Why not follow Bible Steve’s “natural”, “common sense” logic and see if it collaborates with the rest of scripture. Here’s my feeble attempt. I know very little scripture for reference, so please feel free to correct me.

Assume Jehovah and Jesus are not “equal”, “the same”. JW’s will tell you that Jehovah is true God and Jesus…well he’s just “a god” notice (small g). JW’s will also tell you that Jehovah God and him alone will you worship.

But later in the NT, in one of St. Paul’s letters (see I told you I couldn’t reference scripture), we read that when Jesus comes in glory all in heaven, on earth and under the earth will fall to their knees and worship and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now if Jesus gets some worship, which is only and solely reserved for Jehovah God, we have a problem. The Christian faith has gone from Monotheistic to Polytheistic. This in turn invalidates the Bible and the New World Translations completely.

Think about it.👍
 
That is why I look at scriptures that are not ambiguous or in translational dispute amongst experts, like Psa 110:1-5 and Acts 3:13.
In Isaiah 10:20, we find the expression, “Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel.”

The Holy one is said to be no less than Jehovah Himself.

However, in Acts 3:13-4, Peter tells the men of Jerusalem, “You delivered up [Jesus], and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One.”

Is the Holy One Jehovah God or Jesus? Or are they really one God - three persons (with the Holy Spirit)?
 
In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: “I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me.” Did you realize the title “Savior” is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. “I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me.” That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

from spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm
 
Let’s return to the third phrase in John 1:1, for this is the part Jehovah’s Witnesses feel they can answer: “The Word was God.” That is precisely and literally what this text says in the Greek. A well-trained JW will attempt to convince you that our translation is faulty. In the Greek, they will tell you, the word God lacks any definite article (quite right). Therefore, they say, an indefinite article must be supplied: “The Word was a God.” That is bad Greek and totally unwarranted. Was is what is known as a copulative verb. You may have called it a “linking verb” in grammar school. It simply connects the noun on one side with the noun on the other The Word was God. “God” in that sentence is a predicate nominative. It can only be translated the way you find it in most Bibles: “The word was God.” To insert the word “a” is both bad Greek and bad grammar.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/images/indent.gif

Jehovah’s Witnesses have produced their own Bible with their own translation. And they have a handful of Greek scholars who have tried desperately to defend this translation. But what these JW “scholars” do not tell their own people is that there are dozens of places in their Bible where they are forced by common sense to violate the very rule they want to try to impose on John 1:1. I’ll give you two examples from this very same context. If we followed the JW construction and added the word “a” every time the definite article is missing, here’s how a couple of other verses from John 1 would read:
  • v. 6 There came a man, sent from [a] God, whose name was John.
  • v. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of [a] God, even to those who believe in His name.
    So John 1:1 is the achilles’ heel of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ theology, and that is why every JW is taught what to say when it is brought up. But their answers are not at all satisfying to anyone who knows the smallest amount of Greek grammar, and their denial of Christ’s deity is easily debunked merely by the context of this verse.
from spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm

(This really is a great article!)
 
**So David rose up afterward and went out from the cave and called out after Saul, saying: “My lord the king!” **

Steve, I was not talking about using the word lord in that limited, purely human respectful sense. Even I use it in that sense to refer to British “lords.” I should have been more clear that I was talking about in the religious sense of ultimate Spiritual authority. David was clearly not talking about a mere man when he said Jehovah said to my Lord, sit at my right hand…
And remember, Steve, DAVID was king when he uttered that. There was no human lord over him anywhere. He himself was the big cheese, the head honcho of Israel.
Why do you think Jesus asked the Jews that question:
****Who do people say the messiah is? and some answered him,
The Son of David. And Jesus replied, David said (about the Messiah), “The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand…” How then can he be David’s son?? **David, speaking by the Holy Spirit, calls him “Lord,” HOW THEN can he be his son??/B]
This question baffled the Jews, and Jesus knew it.
In Jesus’s time, it was common for the Jews, when speaking of God, to refer to him as Lord and not by his ancient name Yahweh, out of an admittedly unnecessary fear of profaning it.
Jesus knew that when speaking of heavenly things, these Jews used only the word Lord to refer to God Almighty. That’s why his question stumped them, Steve. Because in the religious sense, the Jews recognized no Lord other than Yahweh, whose proper name they were unnecessarily afraid of pronouncing (and many of them still are afraid of pronouncing it to this day). Jesus knew that. He was revealing to the Jews who he was, and they were flabbergasted and stumped. They could not answer him because they did not BELIEVE JESUS to be their Lord (Yahweh), yet Jesus was quoting scripture to them to that effect.

David was talking about HEAVENLY things when he uttered what he uttered. The context seems pretty clear.

And on one of your other points in another post, the fact that some translators say that Jesus only said “I have existed before Abraham was even born,” I have to tell you Steve, and you can check your Greek Interlinear to see it for yourself, that THAT translation is LITERALLY FALSE. That translator was privately interpreting Jesus’s statement when he translated it like that.
What Jesus said was I AM, or in Greek EGO EIMI. Now the fact that he said EGO EIMI is itself significant, for EIMI alone means literallly “I AM”. Putting EGO in front of EIMI is an extremely emphatic way of saying I AM. It’s almost like saying I ALONE am. It is very emphatic, and it never means “I have existed…”

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+**
 
I think I’m good…btw, shall we do a similar comparison of respected translations to see how many render John 1:1 as:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God."

I think you’re alone there…:rotfl:
How many translation do you think exist that don’t say “The Word was God?” Take a guess.

Steve
 
There are several, and they are generally not regarded with favor by competent bible scholars the world over.
 
You name them and I’ll let you know whether I am impressed…
There are dozens.

I’m sure you’ll dismiss them all because it’s simply easier that way… Every translator who see it differently than you must be wrong. I notice most of these translations started to surface after the death penalty was abolished for translators who dared to translate John 1:1 different than the Church demanded.

However, it does raise the question of why other non-JW translators see there is an issue with translating “The Word was God”.

Steve
 
There are dozens.

I’m sure you’ll dismiss them all because it’s simply easier that way… Every translator who see it differently than you must be wrong. I notice most of these translations started to surface after the death penalty was abolished for translators who dared to translate John 1:1 different than the Church demanded.

However, it does raise the question of why other non-JW translators see there is an issue with translating “The Word was God”.

Steve
Wow. What a big number…you must be very proud.

Are you proud enough of these scholarly works to actually NAME them?
 
Steve, are trinitarians polytheists?
May I get your comment on these scriptures first?

(Psalm 82:1) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:

(Psalm 82:6) “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.
 
BibleSteve -

You’re here for a reason. I believe Jehovah God placed you here to inquire of the truth via debate and discussion. By the same token you being here enlightens us as to how JW’s believe and reinforces why we believe what we profess.

Thank you for taking the time to engage in a fascinating topic.

Your brother in Christ.
 
“elohim” not meant as the same as God. Not only in your references but also can be found and was used with Moses when he needed help judging matters. The people he chose were called gods
 
“elohim” not meant as the same as God. Not only in your references but also can be found and was used with Moses when he needed help judging matters. The people he chose were called gods
Yes, that is the point… The Bible does use the word “god” throughout to refer to various “mighty ones”.

Men are called gods, Satan was called a god… it is simply a descriptive title that fits many different people…

Steve
 
May I get your comment on these scriptures first?

(Psalm 82:1) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:

(Psalm 82:6) “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.
Jehovah didn’t think very highly of these judges or “gods,” even if they were supposed to be his representatives. See Psalm 82: 5 and 7 We would certainly not equate Jesus to one of these gods, would we?
 
Randy Carson;2305868" 1In the beginning was the Word said:
God."

I think you’re alone there…:rotfl:

I’m glad you are cracking yourself up.

Let’s see if your statement “you’re alone there” with regard to John 1:1 is correct or false. Will you retract that statement as incorrect, or just immediately attack all these other translators?

“and the Logos was divine (a divine being)” (Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931)

‘the word was a divine being.’ (Jesuit John L. McKenzie, 1965, wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . ‘the word was a divine being.’)

“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott)

“and was himself a divine person” (Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768)
“and the word was a god” (Newcome, 1808)

“the Word was God’s” (Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version)

“and the Word was a divine being.” (La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928)

"the Logos was a god (John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829)

“the Word was divine” (Goodspeed’s An American Translation, 1939)

“the word was a god.” (Revised Version-Improved and Corrected)
“and god-ly/-like] was the Word.” (Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University)

“the Logos was divine” (Moffatt’s The Bible, 1972)

"the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word] (International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001)

“and the Word was a god” (Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694)

“[A]s a god the Command was" (Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863)

“The Word was a God” (Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822)

“[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” (Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885)

“the Word was a god” (Belsham N.T. 1809)

“And the logos was a god” (Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879)

"the Word was Deistic =The Word was Godly] (Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900)

”[A]nd was a god" (J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, International Bible Translators N.T. 1981)

“[A] Divine Person.” (Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London)

“a God” (Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37).)

“a God” (Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156).)

“a god” (Andrews Norton, D.D. [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74).)

“a God” (Paul Wernle,(in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16).)

“and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god.” (21st Century Literal)
[A]nd (a) God was the word" (George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911)

“[A]nd the Word was of divine nature” (Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932)

[T]he Word was a God" (James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958)

“The Word had the same nature as God” (Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974)

“And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” (Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975)

“and godlike sort was the Logos” (Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978)

“the Word was a divine Being” (Scholar’s Version-The Five Gospels, 1993)

"The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was” (J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994)

“a God/god was the Logos/logos” (Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979)

“The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” (Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907)
 
continuing…

“the Word was of divine kind” (Lyder Brun (Norw. professor of NT theology), 1945)

“was of divine Kind/kind” (Fredrich Pfaefflin, The New Testament, 1949)

“godlike Being/being had the Word/word” (Albrecht, 1957)

“the word of the world was a divine being” (Smit, 1960)

“God(=godlike Being/being) was the Word/word” (Menge, 1961)

“divine (of the category divinity)was the Logos” (Haenchen (tr. By R. Funk), 1984)

“And the Word was divine.” (William Temple, Archbishop of York, Readings in St. John’s Gospel, London, Macmillan & Co.,1933)

The Word of Speech was a God" (John Crellius, Latin form of German, The 2 Books of John Crellius Fancus, Touching One God the Father, 1631)

“the word was with Allah[God] and the word was a god” (Greek Orthodox /Arabic Calendar, incorporating portions of the 4 Gospels, Greek Orthodox Patriarchy or Beirut, May, 1983)

“And the Word was Divine” (Ervin Edward Stringfellow (Prof. of NT Language and Literature/Drake University, 1943)
 
I’m glad you are cracking yourself up.

Let’s see if you statement “you’re alone there” with regard to John 1:1 is correct or false. Will you were incorrect in making the statement, or just immediately attack all these other translators?

“and the Logos was divine (a divine being)” (Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931)

‘the word was a divine being.’ (Jesuit John L. McKenzie, 1965, wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . ‘the word was a divine being.’)

“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott)

“and was himself a divine person” (Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768)
“and the word was a god” (Newcome, 1808)

“the Word was God’s” (Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version)

“and the Word was a divine being.” (La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928)

"the Logos was a god (John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829)

“the Word was divine” (Goodspeed’s An American Translation, 1939)

“the word was a god.” (Revised Version-Improved and Corrected)
“and god-ly/-like] was the Word.” (Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University)

“the Logos was divine” (Moffatt’s The Bible, 1972)

"the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word] (International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001)

“and the Word was a god” (Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694)

“[A]s a god the Command was" (Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863)

“The Word was a God” (Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822)

“[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” (Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885)

“the Word was a god” (Belsham N.T. 1809)

“And the logos was a god” (Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879)

"the Word was Deistic =The Word was Godly] (Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900)

”[A]nd was a god" (J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, International Bible Translators N.T. 1981)

“[A] Divine Person.” (Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London)

“a God” (Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37).)

“a God” (Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156).)

“a god” (Andrews Norton, D.D. [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74).)

“a God” (Paul Wernle,(in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16).)

“and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god.” (21st Century Literal)
[A]nd (a) God was the word" (George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911)

“[A]nd the Word was of divine nature” (Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932)

[T]he Word was a God" (James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958)

“The Word had the same nature as God” (Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974)

“And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” (Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975)

“and godlike sort was the Logos” (Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978)

“the Word was a divine Being” (Scholar’s Version-The Five Gospels, 1993)

"The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was” (J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994)

“a God/god was the Logos/logos” (Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979)

“The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being.” (Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907)
Now, in all fairness, can you give us all the translations that have “the Word was God”?
 
Now, in all fairness, can you give us all the translations that have “the Word was God”?
I’m sorry, I thought you had made the statement the NWT was alone in translating John 1:1 differently.

You can see is certainly isn’t.

Are you now changing the question to which way is translated more often?

Steve
 
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