JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

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Yes, I think the point is being made that this “Firstborn of creation” needs to be supported with something outside the Bible.
I don’t know if you are purposely overlooking certain key points of my points or if you are so overwhelmed by all this that you are unitnentionally careless when reading them. The text itself gives the explanation of firstborn. I repeat, the text itself gives the explanation of “firstborn of craetion.” The key word is “because.”
Why is Jesus firstborn of creation?

Colossians 1:16

… 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

It does not say…

“because He was the first one created and thus part of creation.”

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes;2335352:
Daniel makes a statement that NO ONE agrees with the NWT’s translation of Col 1.

I point out a professor who does, and so now the “out of context” brigade comes out.

Daniel simply made an incorrect statement to which I corrected.

No big deal folks.
I said, to my knowledge, NO Translation inserts the word “other” in the text, then I pointed out that the JW’s interpretation of this text agrees with Greber’s spiritualist created NT translation.

Please, do you know of any mainline translations that add the word “other” to the text?

By the way, has JD published in any peer review journals that you know of?
 
I already responded to that “firstborn” argument. The text explains itself. :hmmm: I wonder if Steve is actually reading my posts.

God Bless,
Michael
Colossians 1:15-20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
 
No one has responded to my point that 30+ times “firstborn of…” is interpreted one single and consistent way.

When it comes to Jesus being “the firstborn of creation”… the standard and consistent interpretation isn’t followed.

That is injecting theological bias into the text.
I pointed out that you are a victim of a common word study fallacy.

It is like saying, “one in purpose” from John 17, is the meaning of “God is one” in Deut 6:4.

It is a fallacy.
 
Interesting point. I think you are agreeing…if you consistently followed what the Bible itself says about the usage of “firstborn of…”, you would have to conclude that Jesus, as “firstborn of creation”, would be part of the “creation”.

It’s by going outside the Bible to see what other people say, you make a conclusion that is contrary to the patterned usage of “firstborn of…”
Ah No, that is a word study fallacy, known as “Neglect distinguishing peculiarities of a corpus”. Mike in one of his above posts has shown that my understanding of firstborn fits the text that Christ is above all things because through him God created all things.

The greek word for “other” simply does not exist in the text.

And, someone pointed out that only God created everything from the OT.
 
Your reference to David is another example where “firstborn” is used with reference to someone who is part of the group “kings of the earth”.

Jesus being called “firstborn of creation” similarly puts him as part of the group called creation.

I’m not aruging that the word “firstborn” can’t be used with regards to preeminance.

The phrase “firstborn of _________” puts the person in the category of _______________."
No, you are still reading your theology into the word firstborn to mean he was created.

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Hebrews 1

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Philippians 2:5-11 (English Standard Version)
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,** being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.**
 
Yes, I think the point is being made that this “Firstborn of creation” needs to be supported with something outside the Bible.
Oh, you want something from those who learned from the tradition of the apostles, here you go
"The Firstborn of all creation." “What then,” says one, “Lo, He is a creature.” Whence? tell me. "Because he said ‘Firstborn.’ " However, he said not “first created,” but “firstborn.” Then it is reasonable that he should be called many things. For he must also be called a brother “in all things.” (Heb. ii. 17.) And we must take from Him His being Creator; and insist that neither in dignity nor in any other thing is He superior to us? And who that has understanding would say this? For the word “firstborn” is not expressive of dignity and honor, nor of anything else, but of time only. What does “the firstborn” signify? That he is created, is the answer. Well. If then this be so, it has also kindred expressions. But otherwise the firstborn is of the same essence with those of whom he is firstborn. Therefore he will be the firstborn son of all things—for it said “of every creature”; therefore of stones also, and of me, is God the Word firstborn. But again, of what, tell me, are the words “firstborn from the dead” .) declaratory? Not that He first rose; for he said not simply, “of the dead,” but “firstborn from the dead,” nor yet, “that He died first,” but that He rose the firstborn from the dead. So that they declare nothing else than this, that He is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. Surely then neither in the place before us. Next he proceeds to the doctrine itself. For that they may not think Him to be of more recent existence, because that in former times the approach was through Angels, but now through Him; he shows first, that they had no power (for else it had not been “out of darkness” “For in Him,” he says, “were all things created.” What say here the followers of Paul of Samosata? “The things in the heavens.” What was in question, he has placed first; “and the things upon the earth.” Then he says, “the visible and the invisible things”; invisible, such as soul, and all that has come to exist in heaven; visible, such as men, sun, sky. “Whether thrones.” And what is granted, he lets alone, but what is doubted he asserts. “Whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.” The words “whether,” “or,” comprehend the whole of things; but by means of the greater things show it of the less also. But the Spirit is not amongst the “powers.” “All things,” he says, “have been created through Him, and unto Him.” Lo, “in Him,” is “through Him,” for having said “in Him,” he added, “through Him.” But what “unto Him”? It is this; the subsistence of all things depends on Him. Not only did He Himself bring them out of nothing into being, but Himself sustains them now, so that were they dissevered from His Providence, they were at once undone and destroyed. But He said not, “He continues them,” which had been a grosser way of speaking, but what is more subtle, that “on” Him they depend. To have only a bearing on Him is enough to continue anything and bind it fast. So also the word “firstborn,” in the sense of a foundation. But this does not show the creatures to be consubstantial with Him; but that all things are through Him, and in Him are upheld. Since Paul also when he says elsewhere, “I have laid a foundation” (1 Cor. iii. 10.), is speaking not concerning substance, but operation. For, that you may not think Him to be a minister, he says that He continues them, which is not less than making them. Certainly, with us it is greater even: for to the former, art conducts us; but to the latter, not so, it does not even stay a thing in decay.
“And He is before all things,” he says. This is befitting God. Where is Paul of Samosata? “And in Him all things consist,” that is, they are created into Him. He repeats these expressions in close sequence; with their close succession, as it were with rapid strokes, tearing up the deadly doctrine by the roots. For, if even when such great things had been declared, still after so long a time Paul of Samosata sprung up, how much more [would such have been the case], had not these things been said before? “And in Him,” he says, “all things consist.” How “consist” in one who was not? So that the things also done through Angels are of Him.
“And He is the head of the body, the Church.”
newadvent.org/fathers/230303.htm
**
Steve if you missed it, we do believe that he is Eternally Begotten.**
 
IAn Officer out ranks an Enlisted man, both are outranked by their commander and chief, but all three are by Nature still human.

and, my point from John 5 still stands that Jesus is working there by his own ability. But, he is doing his Father’s Will by Obedience.
Absolutely no disagrement here. The illustration of Commander in Chief over Officer over Enlisted is find and in line with JW’s understanding of Jehovah over Jesus.

Steve
 
You insist on ignoring the express words of Scripture. Maybe if I actually post the text for the … I lost count … you can see that the text itself explains what “firstborn of creation” means.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him

What does “because” mean? The following definintion is from the reliable and unbiased dictionary.com:

1. for the reason that; due to the fact that: The boy was absent because he was ill.

I’m sure that “because” is consitently used the same way throughout the Bible. So Colossians states that Jesus is the firstborn of creation and then gives the reason why (because…).

In all the passages you pointed out, Steve, firstborn is being used literally, as in first one born. In the passage I gave you on King David, it is used metaphorically. Just as the firstborn son enjoys a certain primacy/preeminence in his family, David will enjoy a primacy/preeminence. The point of this passage was to show that firstborn is also used as a metaphor for preeminence.

Similarly, “firstborn” is being used metaphorically in Colossians and the rest of the verse, Steve, clearly explains in what sense it is being used. Words can be used literally and metaphorically. You must first look at its immediate context to determine its meaning. If its meaning is not clear from the immediate context, you look elsewhere. We do not need to look beyond the immediate context of this verse because it explicitly gives the meaning of the “firstborn of creation.”

God Bless,
Michael
Hi Michael, do you believe that the Son of God was eternally begotten?

the text says “firstborn” not “first created”
 
I don’t know if you are purposely overlooking certain key points of my points or if you are so overwhelmed by all this that you are unitnentionally careless when reading them. The text itself gives the explanation of firstborn. I repeat, the text itself gives the explanation of “firstborn of craetion.” The key word is “because.”
Why is Jesus firstborn of creation?

Colossians 1:16

… 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

It does not say…

“because He was the first one created and thus part of creation.”

God Bless,
Michael
Firstborn, not first created.
. The evangelist Matthew has commenced his narrative in these terms: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.” By this exordium he shows with sufficient clearness that his undertaking is to give an account of the generation of Christ according to the flesh. For, according to this, Christ is the Son of man,—a title which He also gives very frequently to Himself, thereby commending to our notice what in His compassion He has condescended to be on our behalf. For that heavenly and eternal generation, in virtue of which He is the only-begotten Son of God, before every creature, because all things were made by Him, is so ineffable, that it is of it that the word of the prophet must be understood when he says, “Who shall declare His generation?” Matthew therefore traces out the human generation of Christ, mentioning His ancestors from Abraham downwards, and carrying them on to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.
newadvent.org/fathers/1602201.htm

eternal generation search at www.newadvent.org
 
Wow, I caught up on this thread. Let’s move towards the doctrine of the Eternal begotting, or eternal generation of the Son.

What you all say?
 
President Bush senior sitting next to President Bush Jr. are clearly two persons, but they both share the same human nature.
I would also agree to this illustration also. Perfectly summarizing the JW understanding of Jesus, and his Father, Jehovah God.
 
Hi Michael, do you believe that the Son of God was eternally begotten?

the text says “firstborn” not “first created”
Am I Catholic? Of course! 😃 One can only beget one that is of the same nature as oneself. Hence Jesus must share the same divine nature as the Father.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Why are you still using this reference when I posted the person being referenced in this link as being totally opposed to the JW’s using his work as proof of of their theology, his clarification of his stance that is not in line with what JW say he is saying, and his own reports of his fellow professors disagreeing with his theories and conclusions on the matter? This is rather odd, Steve.
Amen,

Hebrews 1

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
**5For to which of the angels did God ever say, **
"You are my Son;
 
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers **through **the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and **through **whom he made the universe.
God spoke THROUGH prophets…

God created the universe THROUGH his Son

The prophets weren’t considered to be Jehovah.
Jesus shouldn’t be considered to be Jehovah
 
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BibleSteve:
Jesus shouldn’t be considered to be Jehovah
[yelling]HE’S NOT, STOP INFERRING IT ALREADY[/yelling], sheesh
 
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