JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

[mikeledes]

Steve, I’ve addressed that point over and over again. Your explanation of creation contradicts what God says and makes Him a liar. Please reread the following:

This argument does not hold water. When God asserts that there is no savior than me, he is asserting that there is no one that does the saving work that he specificaly does. In other words, there are different kinds of salvation and thus different kinds of saviors. If you fall into the train tracks and I rescue you, I am your savior. But I am not your savior in the sense that God is your savior. When God says there is no savior like Him, He is talking about a specific kind of salvation that only He can provide.

Regarding creation, however, he is clearly asserting a clear fact, namely, that he was by Himself when He created the world and there was no one with Him. He even asserts that he created everything with His own hands, thus excluding any possibility of anyone doing the work for or with Him. He even asks in the NWT “WHO WAS WITH ME?”

The question I have is how do the JWs work out the logistics of creation. Did God provide Jesus the blueprint and Jesus did the actual work? How do you reconcile that with passages that clearly stated God created everything with His own hands. The expression “own hand” specifically excludes any representaives or the idea of anyone doing the work for Him. For example, let’s say, Steve, that you gave me a letter and told me to give it to Jaypeeto. Later on in the day, I tell you “I gave it to Jaypeeto.” Now that can be ambiguous. It can mean that I gave it to Jaypeeto personally or I sent someone to give it to him for me. But if I tell you, Steve, that “I gave it to Jaypeeto with my own hands”, that means I personally and directly gave him the letter and thus excludes any delegates, representatives, or messengers.

When God says that He created the world with His own hands, He is clearly stating that He personally and directly created the world by Himself, no delgates or representatives. Since we believe Jesus is God, these verses are not problematic. Since you see Jesus as a created partner in creation, you have a serious problem reconciling this with God’s express words.

God bless,
Michael

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[mikeledes]

Here are the relevant verses that contradict this notion that God had a created partner in creation.

Isaiah 44:24

**24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? **

Isaiah 45:12

12 I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.

God denies having any partners in the creation of the world and emphasizes that he created the world with his own “hands.” This contradicts the JW notion that Jesus was a created partner in creation.

I’ve posted these verses over and over again.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BibleSteve]

[yelling]HE’S NOT, STOP INFERRING IT ALREADY[/yelling], sheesh

Read post 1 in this thread. The claim is that Jesus is Jehovah.

 

[BibleSteve]

God denies having any partners in the creation of the world and emphasizes that he created the world with his own “hands.” This contradicts the JW notion that Jesus was a created partner in creation.

1In the past **God **spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Doing something through someone else isn’t hard to understand.

Jehovah did things **through **prophets, **through **saviors and even **through **his Son.

In the case of creating the universe, YHWH did it **through **his Son

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t see any loose ends. Going over the entire thread, it seems the Trinitarions are repeating ourselves and are pretty much of the same theology: - first born of creation, who has authentic translations, psalm 22, psalm 110, etc. The same scripture verses have been repeated, then new people jump in after the old ones quite and make the same scriptural references. This Bible Steve can rehash his “confusion” over the same verses he used in the beginning of the thread, because if he actually read what was in the posts and the links, he wouldn’t be claiming the same confusion.

One last quote from Acts 13:3 in today’s reading:
"while they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said,
“Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul,
for the work to which I have called them.”
Then, completing their fasting and prayer,
they laid hands on them and sent them off.

The Holy Spirit is a being, he acts, he speaks, he has a will. The Holy Spirit calls Barnabas and Saul to work he has prepared for them. There is only one God, so the natural conclusion, there are three persons in ONE GOD.

Done, Amen. I’m glad I read what I read, because I learned a lot more about my Catholic faith and that there are a lot of Catholics out there like myself who are hungering to learn more and to share our faith. Thanks much to all who contributed, I learned a lot from you.

I quit!

Could each person list, the loose ends that they see that needs to be dealt with?

 

[mikeledes]

1In the past **God **spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Doing something through someone else isn’t hard to understand.

Jehovah did things **through **prophets, **through **saviors and even **through **his Son.

Sir, you are comparing apples with oranges. God uses prophets to speak. God uses “saviors” to deliver people from their enemies. But there are things that God does directly and creating is one of them. God used no created being to create. What God is talking about in the verses in Isaiah is that He created the world BY HIMSELF? Do you understand what “by myself” entails? Do you understand what “I did everything” entails? Do you know what “my own hand” entails? What did God mean when he asks “Who was with me?” Unless you graduated from BCSEL ( The Bill Clinton School of the English Language) , you cannot escape the plain meaning of the text.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

When Jesus quoted the opening words of Psalms 22, he was bringing to mind the full Psalm in the ears of those who heard him.

Psalms 22:24 plainly says, that God did not forsake him,

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Read the whole Psalm, and your interpretation fades away.

And you know the correct interpretation? And who ever said God forsaked Jesus; that would be Jesus forsaking Himself. And if you are saying Jesus is anything other than God then show me any historical evidence where this was taught.

 

[mikeledes]

God never says He wrote the Bible by Himself.

God never says He delivered His Word to His people by Himself.

God never said He delivered the Isarelites from their enemies during the era of the judges by Himself.

But God clearly and explicitly states He created the world by Himself.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[trucho]

Read post 1 in this thread. The claim is that Jesus is Jehovah.

Actually you never answered to my posts (#344 and #366) in which I claim that Jesus the Word of God is the one that spoke to Moses. Therefore Jehovah is not the Father but the Son.

If you want to search the Catholic thought and the concept of Trinity down to its origins, you must go to our first fathers.
The JW claim that the concept of Trinity appeared after the Council of 325 A.D. and that none of the early Christians knew about it. (“Should you Believe in the Trinity?” Spanish (ti-S) F.W. Franz Watch Tower Society), which of course is completely false.

First you have to remember what the word “logos” meant in Greek, which is usually translated as “word” but actually meant much more than that. It was a word or a speech, but also a thought and was usually related to breathing. Therefore the words you thought became speech by your breath, they came with the air that came out of you, so your “logos” was indeed a part of your self. Under the concept of “Logos” your Words where indivisible from your thoughts and from yourself.

Once again I think you should go to Saint Justin Martyr and see what the first Christian communities believed in. Also you can go to Irenaeus.
www.earlychristianwritings.com
Justin Martyr first apology Chapter LXIII where you can see that Jesus is Jehovah
Chapter XXI where you can see that “Jehovah” is not a name.

Irenaeus of Lyons book IV Chapter XX very interesting thoughts about the Wisdom of God, which he believed to be the Holy Spirit.

 

[BibleSteve]

But God clearly and explicitly states He created the world by Himself.

And then he goes on to clarify he did it **through **someone else.

 

[Turtullian]

And then he goes on to clarify he did it **through **someone else.

If God says there was nobody with him and he did it all by himself, logically God did by himself and used no intermediary to do it. This line of argumentation chucks all rational thought out the window and it also makes 1=2.

 

[BibleSteve]

Actually you never answered to my posts (#344 and #366) in which I claim that Jesus the Word of God is the one that spoke to Moses. Therefore Jehovah is not the Father but the Son.

I see several occassion in Genesis and Exodus where angels are speaking in the first person for Jehovah, saying “I Jehovah…”

The texts say they are angels… and the fact that people saw them and yet the Bible says no one has seen God lead me to conclude they were sent for as his authorized messengers to speak in behalf of him in first person.

 

[DobleGG]

Has anyone tried using the NWT to convey the Catholic understanding of the trinity?

In the NWT read Mt 1:23 and then read John 1:1

23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im·man´u·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Regarding Mt 1:23 every JW will admit that the prophecy quoted here from the OT is in reference to Jesus. Also, JW’s will admit throughout the NWT, where God with a capital “G” appears, reference is being made to Jehovah God and him alone. Yet, here we find the name/title of Jehovah "G"od being given to Jesus.

Regarding John 1:1 every JW will admit that the Word of God is referring to Jesus. Yet, here we see Jesus titled as “a god”.

Accordingly, either Jesus is God the Son or he is just “a god” Either way this indeed is very contradictory.

Any comments??

 

[BibleSteve]

If God says there was nobody with him and he did it all by himself, logically God did by himself and used no intermediary to do it. This line of argumentation chucks all rational thought out the window and it also makes 1=2.

So what is the use for the scripture to then say “God created the Universe **through **his Son” and “**for **His Son” and **by means **of His Son.

 

[Bishopite]

God never says He wrote the Bible by Himself.

God never says He delivered His Word to His people by Himself.

God never said He delivered the Isarelites from their enemies during the era of the judges by Himself.

But God clearly and explicitly states He created the world by Himself.

God Bless,
Michael

The bottom line with JW’s and others is that anyone can read the Bible and make what they want of it, however, if the JW’s on this thread could show us from any point, post Apostolic period to the 1800’s where Jesus was considered by orthodox Christians anything other than God incarnate that would them some clout. However they can’t give any substantive evidence and that tells us something. It tells us of the lack of historical evidence to back up their misguided interpretation of scripture; what they believe is simply a modern form of Arianism.

 

[Turtullian]

I see several occassion in Genesis and Exodus where angels are speaking in the first person for Jehovah, saying “I Jehovah…”

The texts say they are angels… and the fact that people saw them and yet the Bible says no one has seen God lead me to concluded they were sent for as his authorized messengers to speak in behalf of him in first person.

Yet we have instances where People do see God in the OT.

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: ‘For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.’" (Genesis 32:30).

“So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.” (Exodus 33:11);

“But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face ‘prosopon kata prosopon’ LXX]…” (Deuteronomy 34:10).

“Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?’” (Numbers 12:7-8);

thriceholy.net/prosopon.html

 

[Turtullian]

So what is the use for the scripture to then say “God created the Universe **through **his Son” and “**for **His Son” and **by means **of His Son.

The only way that this statement can be intelligible is if Jesus is God, otherwise we have a created Creature creating things et all, When God has said that no such thing occured and he created all things by himself and by his own hands.

After all it is By the Son and through the Son That God created. However, unless Jesus himself is uncreated and is God we have a contradiction between the NT and OT. QED

 

[mikeledes]

And then he goes on to clarify he did it **through **someone else.

And then you make God into a liar if you say that someone else is not God. By Himself means By Himself which means God alone. Creating with his OWN HANDS means that God directly created the world. If Jesus is not God, then God is not clariying anything. He is contradicting Himself.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to go to the original argument made in this thread. Namely, the fact that Jesus identified Himself as “The First and the Last” means that He is identifying Himself as God.

Let’s analyze what “The first and the last” means. The first time we find this expression is in the Book of the Prophet Isaiah. In Isaiah 44:6 God says:

“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

The second half of this verse sheds light on what God means by “I am the first and the last.” God is saying that He is the only God. He is the first God and the last God and there are no other god. If you read chapters 40 through 48, God constantly asserts this truth (ex. Isaiah 45:18,21,22; 46:9). Moreover, in Isaiah 43:10 , it states:

Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none

Which is another way of saying I am the first and I am the last.

So this title is a title that defines the very essence of God, namely, that there is only one God. So to say that “I am the first and the last”, a title that exclusively belongs to God , is the equivalent of saying “I am the one true God.”

Now we find in Revelation 1:1& Jesus identifying Himself as follows:

**And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. **I am the First and the Last ****

Before I go any further, I want to use an analogy. Let’s say I tell you, Steve, that Daniel Marsh is the President of the Columbia University Catholic Club and let’s say you never met or spoke to Daniel Marsh before. A couple of days later, a person introduces himself to you, simply saying “I am the President of the Columbia University Catholic Club.” You would automatically know that that person is Daniel Marsh. So if Jesus identifies as "THE First and THE Last He is identifying Himself as God. There can only be one “The First and the Last.”

As I stated in the beginning of this post, the intent of “I am th Fist and I am the Last” was to assert the basic truth that there is only one true God. In other words, God is saying “I am the first God and the Last God.” Therefore, when Jesus is using it, He is saying “I am the first God and the last God.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus says “I am the First and the Last,” a title exclusively used by God, Thomas says to Him “My God,” Hebrews 1 identifies Jesus as the subject of Psalm 102 and yet the subject of that Psalm is God, Isaiah describes Jesus as "The Mighty God, which he uses one chapter later to describe Jehovah. The evidence is quite clear.

God Bless,
Michael