S
spudmurphy
Guest
“All these arguments in favor of “a” god for John 1:1 are moot.
All of the early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (PRE-Constantine, PRE-Nicene Council)
Church fathers, who quoted John 1:1, quoted it as The Word was God, not “a” god,
and all of them who discussed the matter, e.g., Justin Martyr and Irenaeus,
declared that Christ was God Almighty, Justin even repeatedly
calling Jesus The Lord of Hosts (or Jehovah of Armies, as the NWT renders it).
The early Christians, except for the urine-drinking Gnostics, and a couple of other crackpots, all believed that Christ was God Almighty. Scholars who make claims to
the contrary are Liberals and are lying.”
Reply,
The above is a reply from one of your fellow Trinitarians. The author of the above knows nothing of how Greek works and writes as though the fathers of the early church spoke and wrote in English e.g.
“Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, declared that Christ was God Almighty, Justin even repeatedly calling Jesus The Lord of Hosts (or Jehovah of Armies, as the NWT renders it).”
The early fathers were subordinationists, also Justin and Irenaeus, like other apologists and church fathers, were under the influence of Greek philosophy, especially metaphysics (the One, Nous and Soul) from which the eternal substance sharing Trinity developed! Justin treated the brand of Christianity of his day, once he was converted from Platonism, as a superior form of philosophy and called Jesus an “angel”, Polycarp before him called Jesus God’s “Child”, these are not one would use of the Almighty God, but of a lesser Being…!
Jesus cannot be Jehovah, as this would be a form of Modalism, which I believe Trinitarianism is a disguised form of! In Isa 63:16; 64:8 and Math 6:9 ASV, DT, YLT In Math 6:9 Jesus addresses One whom he calls “our father” but supplies no name to this One. In the Isaiah texts above, it is a different matter! The Father (our father) is the same “our father” in the time of Isaiah, as he was in the time of Jesus, whilst he was on earth, one and the same “our father” (God does not change)!
In the Isaiah texts the “our father” is specifically named by the prophet and the “our father” is named as “Jehovah”, so that the “our father” is Jehovah, who is God the Father!
So, if Trinitarians insist that Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is the Father, as noted above, then logically, if Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is the Father, then Jesus must also be the Father, one and the same person, as Trinitarians insist, nay theologically demand, that Jesus is Jehovah, which is rank Modalism, apostasy, according to scripture!
“The early Christians…all believed that Christ was God Almighty.”
Did they?
Have a look at your Trinitarian bibles at, 2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3 and 1 Pet 1:3 just for a few examples and that you will find, that the second person of your Trinitarian God, has himself One who is God to him and that in John 5:26, 27 the second person of your Trinity, who is supposed to be Almighty and Immortal, has to be “granted/given” Immortality, something that would be ridiculous had he actually already been Immortal and also, he had to be “granted/given” ‘authority’ to do judging, these were granted/given unto him by another infinitely greater than he…!
It has become increasingly noticeable, that there is a distinct lack of knowledge of how classical/koine grammar works among Trinitarians, who also seem to think with a KJV tradition mentality, repeating the same basic errors, over and over again, whilst slagging off JW’s and the NWT!
I find it interesting to note, that earlier, Mantey was brought in as a star witness against the NWT, but the other side of the specious Mantey (et al) coin has been exposed, just as others like Barclay have… and I see (as of yet) no rebuttal, but I’m sure gullible Trinitarians will still propagate Mantey’s biased and one-sided opinions, as they really know no better!
Spud