Kabaa

[hawk]

Allah asks all muslims to pray towards the Kabaa.

According to islamic legends

This Kabaa was said to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael.
The corner stone (a meteorite) brought by Gabriel.

After that it was the site was used for pagan worship by the arabs.

Yet in the early part of the revelation, the muslims turned to Jerusalem to pray.

This was because the jews of Medinah turned to Jerusalem.

However, the jews rejected Mohammed as their apostle.

So he turned back the Kabaa to pray, claiming God ordered the change.

Muslims are asked to perform a pilgrimmage at least once in their life to this site, after which their sins are forgiven.

It is an arduous and hard journey even now.

Much of the ritual at the Kabaa is identical to the ritual in pagan arabia.
However it is given a fresh lease on life in the new faith.

Circumambulation is said to mirror the circumambulation of the angels in heaven.

 

[UnworthySoul]

You have a unique perspective having been a Muslim. Thank you for your insights.

 

[Eetaq]

Nearly all of the activities of Hajj can be found in the Old Testament.

Its not from the pagans, it is a way to remind us of certain things. All of the rituals are symbolic, and most can be found within Christian and Jewish beliefs, not pagan.

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

Nearly all of the activities of Hajj can be found in the Old Testament.

Its not from the pagans, it is a way to remind us of certain things. All of the rituals are symbolic, and most can be found within Christian and Jewish beliefs, not pagan.

wearing ihram?

Sa’i?

Temptation of Abraham and stoning of the pillars?

Tawaful-wada?

Where in the Tawrah do you find these rituals?

 

[Eetaq]

Like I said, some are symbolic, and some are in the Old testament.

Going between the mountains seven times is in the old testament, where Abraham’s wife ran between them seven times until she finally found water for her dehydrated shild.

Wearing Ihram can essentially be found in any religion, as it makes all of us equal. If you believe that Jesus was the Son of God almighty himself, and still lived a very poor life on this Earth, I’m sure you would agree with a CEO wearing the exact same clothes as a pauper.

Others may or may not be in the Torah, as I am not familiar enough with the Torah to say what is and what is not in it.

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

Going between the mountains seven times is in the old testament, where Abraham’s wife ran between them seven times until she finally found water for her dehydrated shild.

I dont wish to push it, but where in the Tawrah is this story?

Seven times you say?

 

[Eetaq]

Yes, seven times, I bleieve. Hopefully a chrisitian on here is familiar with the story.

I know for a fact that it is either in the New or most likely Old testament because in my religion and philosophy classes the Christians who are what we call the ‘God squad’ are familiar with the story.

 

[Mot_Juste]

Here is the story from Genesis 21:14-19.

Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, placing the child on her back, he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba, the water in the skin was used up. So she put the child down under a shrub, and then went and sat down opposite him, about a bowshot away; for she said to herself, “Let me not watch to see the child die.” As she sat opposite him, he began to cry. God heard the boy’s cry, and God’s messenger called to Hagar from heaven: “What is the matter, Hagar? Don’t be afraid; God has heard the boy’s cry in this plight of his. Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went and filled the skin with water, and then let the boy drink.

 

[hawk]

Mot Juste:

Here is the story from Genesis 21:14-19.

Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, placing the child on her back, he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba, the water in the skin was used up. So she put the child down under a shrub, and then went and sat down opposite him, about a bowshot away; for she said to herself, “Let me not watch to see the child die.” As she sat opposite him, he began to cry. God heard the boy’s cry, and God’s messenger called to Hagar from heaven: “What is the matter, Hagar? Don’t be afraid; God has heard the boy’s cry in this plight of his. Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went and filled the skin with water, and then let the boy drink.

So where is the seven sprints between the hills?

 

[Eetaq]

In the qur’an it is seven times. And the well that sprouted is the zam-zam, still running strong and said to have enough minerals in it to sustain a person for months.

Whats important is that its not some sort of folklore that came up with the activities of hajj, they are all religious activities.

BY THE WAY

thanks a lot for posting the story

 

[fatuma]

Here i found this a while back:
sacredsites.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia/mecca.html

wa salam

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

In the qur’an it is seven times. And the well that sprouted is the zam-zam, still running strong and said to have enough minerals in it to sustain a person for months.

Whats important is that its not some sort of folklore that came up with the activities of hajj, they are all religious activities.

BY THE WAY

thanks a lot for posting the story

Eetaq,
You have not pointed to any proof of it being anything but folklore I am afraid.

The rituals of the Hajj are identical to the ones performed by pagan arabs, in all my time I have never seen proof of their divine origin,except the mumblings of imams of old, and some ahadith.
Not even the Quran speaks of these rituals.

 

[BrJimC]

Two threads running on Kabbah… this is relevant.

According to the story of Abraham after he settled Hagar and Ishmael in Bakkah (now known as Makkah) he and Ishmael set out to find a cornerstone to build the first house of worship to God. In all of the area there was no stone to be found. Ishmael went in one direction and Abraham another. When Ishmael came back he saw that his father Abraham was already building the house. He asked his father wear he got this cornerstone to start construction since he had searched everywhere and couldnt find one. Abraham told Ishmael that God sent it down from the heavens.

Deviant Arab tribes set up false gods at the site many years later. When Islam came, the Prophet Muhammad had all of the idols destroyed. Since then, in the history of the kabbah, it has been destroyed and rebuilt in various wars… but the the cornerstone has always been protected and eventually was encased in glass at the site of the kabbah.

It does not serve as a item or idol of worship… it is merely encased there as a historical monument that was left to use by Abraham. The reason we pray in a circle around the kabbah is simply because that is how Abraham and Ishmael prayed and dedicated this House of Worship after they completed its construction.

In Islam God cannot be represented by anything on earth, in the heavens, under the earth or any part of creation. God is Unique from Creation and seperate from it. Thus nothing human, animal, stone, wood, earth, stars, moon, can be worshipped or set up as a charm or center of worhsip or a partner with God.

We dont worship the stone… its merely a historical monument that is not to be moved from the site that Abraham built.

On what authority? Im a Muslim and have learned these things from Seerah (History).

---

The rituals were taught by Abraham and his followers followed them… however after time passed the Arabs followed the rituals that Abraham taught and added many idols as well… when Islam came it restored what Abraham practiced and the rituals he followed and destroyed the idols and pagan rituals.

This took time… Islam had to grow politically and militarily in order to completely wrest power over teh Kabbh from the Pagan Arab tribes… thus the issue of Qiblah has no bearing on the practice of Muslims… they worshipped God as Abraham worshipped and as soon as they got power…they seized the opportunity to destroy all traces of pagan ritual and practice.

If they had tried to do this too early then the Pagan Arabs were too strong and most certainly would have crushed the small band of believers in the Prophet. God gave the Prophet the strategy and the strength when the time was right.

This is the seerah (history). That is the authority.

 

[hawk]

BrJimC:

On what authority? Im a Muslim and have learned these things from Seerah (History).

Br,
I am more familiar with the Hajj than you imagine.
Show me the authenticity of this history, show me a sahih ahadith that speaks of the Hajj.
From Abraham to Mohammed, where is this history from?
There is no one to vouch for the Truth of Mohammed, not even Allah strengthened him with signs, and have you noticed how islam is still empty of signs, yet in Christianity there are so many miracles?

The rituals were taught by Abraham and his followers followed them… however after time passed the Arabs followed the rituals that Abraham taught and added many idols as well… when Islam came it restored what Abraham practiced and the rituals he followed and destroyed the idols and pagan rituals.

So they added idols, but they maintained the rituals intact?

This took time… Islam had to grow politically and militarily in order to completely wrest power over teh Kabbh from the Pagan Arab tribes… thus the issue of Qiblah has no bearing on the practice of Muslims… they worshipped God as Abraham worshipped and as soon as they got power…they seized the opportunity to destroy all traces of pagan ritual and practice.

I know that the Satanic verses are a cancer in the Sahih Muslim collection. But we can discuss that if you want.
Now I know you will say oh the ahadith as fallible.

But you would call the ahadith narrators fabricators, when they are the same people you entrust to transmit the Quran to you orally?

The satanic verses ahadith, has 2or 3 chains, I am wondering what your opinion on them is?

If they had tried to do this too early then the Pagan Arabs were too strong and most certainly would have crushed the small band of believers in the Prophet. God gave the Prophet the strategy and the strength when the time was right.

This is the seerah (history). That is the authority.

Like I said, a good military commander, for this I have to respect him.

 

[BrJimC]

Allah has vouched for the truth of Muhammad and Allah has vouched for His own statements…

Appearantly you are not as familiar with the hajj as you think… or you would know these things… this is basic stuff. Study the Seerah.

 

[hawk]

BrJimC:

Allah has vouched for the truth of Muhammad and Allah has vouched for His own statements…

Appearantly you are not as familiar with the hajj as you think… or you would know these things… this is basic stuff. Study the Seerah.

Brother you have not understood me, who is to vouch for the arabs between ishmael and Mohammed?

Are we to believe that idolaters preserved all the traditions intact?