Kabbalah, Torah, Talmud

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I have 3 questions about these:

How are these different, and how are they similar?

Are they all Jewish books?

How did they come about?
 
I have 3 questions about these:

How are these different, and how are they similar?

Are they all Jewish books?

How did they come about?
Try Google - this time, perhaps, avoiding sites suggested on StormFront?
 
Torah, this is the OT, always been from God himelf, Kabala, you will have some fun research in that area, boy have we as Christians lost so much in the process will be your hypothosis, this Jewish religion that we base ours upon is not at all some fluffy piece of text, there are things we have forgotten about that totally reinforce what Christ taught, ie. moving mountains, walking on water, bread and fish for the multitude, he wasn’t just doing it alone for metaphorics, he was explaining to us things we forgotten about… have a fun ride there, just know, at all times, put it all before the lord before practicing any of it, else you may get side tracked and there are many wolves waiting in the ditches along the way.
 
Torah, this is the OT,
Nope, what you call the ‘OT’ is the Tanakh. Torah is what Christians call ‘Pentateuch’, ie Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

See why I suggested he ‘Google’?
 
a very good place to start getting a good idea about kabbalah would be rabbi david coopers book. God Is A Verb. if after reading that you actually want to study the zoar. may i suggest daniel c. matts translation. its not finished yet. i own the first 4 volumes. my priest also studies kabbalah. how it came about is a matter of speculation. some think it was the work of one man, but i really dont see how. its too complex. especially when you get into the tree of life. enjoy. and the talmud. i would suggest every mans talmud. cannot remember the author. had to leave alot of books behind when i joined the military. i miss them. Peace 🙂
 
Nope, what you call the ‘OT’ is the Tanakh. Torah is what Christians call ‘Pentateuch’, ie Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

See why I suggested he ‘Google’?
If you know this why do you send me to google instead of elaboration, google is a worldly search engine…so, I’m wrong, elaborate why so and expand upon this please rather then simply leaving it at look it up online…
 
If you know this why do you send me to google instead of elaboration, google is a worldly search engine…so, I’m wrong, elaborate why so and expand upon this please rather then simply leaving it at look it up online…
I wasn’t sending you anywhere, I was sending the original poster to Google.

There are a number of reasons for having done so, some have to do with the original poster himself, some to the whole question of ‘being a Jewish poster on CAF’.

There are many threads started on these simple ‘google-able’ type questions, there are, generally, only one or two Jewish posters around at all. In my case, rather than spend my time repeating the same basic stuff over and over again, I suggest people ‘google’.
 
Not at all seeing our Jewish brethren posting anything at all in reference to our Christian roots on the OT, and I’ve looked around extensively, direct (name removed by moderator)ut is warmly welcomed in my and many of our cases to this regard. I am an oddball perhaps, seeing we lost much in the modern transfer, even look to the Kabala itself as a huge teaching tool even though it’s highly guarded by you guys for understanding.
 
I have 3 questions about these:

How are these different, and how are they similar?

Are they all Jewish books?

How did they come about?
Torah can mean several things:

Most basically it means the divinely revealed teaching (usually translated 'Law" by Christians, but the Jewish rabbi I know best strongly dislikes that translation) that governs the lives of Jews. This teaching is found in its most authoritative form in the “Five Books of Moses,” which Orthodox Jews believe were essentially dictated to Moses by God at Mount Sinai. Therefore, these books are often referred to as Torah.

However, Orthodox Jews believe that there is also an “oral Torah” which was revealed by God to Moses at Sinai but not written down for centuries later. (Conservative Jews are more open to the view that this content is of later origin altogether, I believe.) Eventually, much of this oral Torah was written down in a document called the “Mishnah,” which records the judgments of various rabbis concerning questions of Torah. The rabbis recorded in the Mishnah lived more or less during the couple centuries surrounding the lifetime of Jesus (up to the early second century of our era), and the Mishnah itself was written down probably around A.D. 200. Over the next few centuries, other rabbis commented on the Mishnah and gave further elaboration of the oral Torah, and this commentary was added to the Mishnah to create the Talmud. (There are actually two Talmuds, but the more important one is the “Babylonian Talmud” written down around the sixth century).

At the same time, many rabbis were having mystical experiences and writing about them. This mystical tradition shows up occasionally in the Talmud, but much of it wasn’t included there. In the Middle Ages, mysticism became more important, and Jewish mystics claimed that their teachings had been handed down by tradition from the ancient rabbis. The word “Kabbalah” basically means “tradition.” The most important document of the Kabbalah is the Zohar, which was probably written around the 13th century but claims to record the teachings of the ancient Talmudic rabbis.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. You have asked a complex set of questions. One of the best and clearest websites dealing with these matters is www.jewfaq.org. The author of the website seems very well informed, although she is not a rabbi or a professional scholar as far as I can tell. Generally I have found that what she says checks out with other, more authoritative sources.

Edwin
 
a very good place to start getting a good idea about kabbalah would be rabbi david coopers book. God Is A Verb. if after reading that you actually want to study the zoar. may i suggest daniel c. matts translation. its not finished yet. i own the first 4 volumes. my priest also studies kabbalah. how it came about is a matter of speculation. some think it was the work of one man, but i really dont see how. its too complex. especially when you get into the tree of life. enjoy. and the talmud. i would suggest every mans talmud. cannot remember the author. had to leave alot of books behind when i joined the military. i miss them. Peace 🙂
I read “God is a Verb” and it was very informative. Holy Kaballah is more involved than I had orginally believed.
 
I have 3 questions about these:

How are these different, and how are they similar?

Are they all Jewish books?

How did they come about?
yes and No.

Kabbalah is a Jewish mystical book of the middle ages.

Torah- IS the first 5 books of your bible, of the protestants, Syrians, orthodox bible.

Talmud- according to religious Jews, is just as much the authoritative, inspired very words of YHWH which serve as the official interpretation of the written. To be a good “Jew” one must accpet both the Talmud(Oral) and the Written(Genesis, exodus, Leviticus, numbers, Deuteronomy) as equally authoritative, inspired, etc. and one must follow both.

what is Jewish? I think most of the time when God in scripture refers to what you call the Jews, He calls them “Israelites” Jew, while used to an extent to refer to ALL tribes, was generally in the TNK to refer to the TRIBE of Judah.
 
My understanding has been that the Talmud contains the commentaries of the Biblical verses of the Torah (Pentateuch) by the Sages of Israel…
As for the Kabbalah, they are mystical, poetical interpretations of the Biblical verses from the Medieval times. A number of people have used it as though it were a magical tool, although the use of magics and divination is prohibited by the Torah… Not every rabbi used to be versed in the Kabbalah, and when they are, I don’t know how they use it.
 
a very good place to start getting a good idea about kabbalah would be rabbi david coopers book. God Is A Verb. if after reading that you actually want to study the zoar. may i suggest daniel c. matts translation. its not finished yet. i own the first 4 volumes. my priest also studies kabbalah. how it came about is a matter of speculation. some think it was the work of one man, but i really dont see how. its too complex. especially when you get into the tree of life. enjoy. and the talmud. i would suggest every mans talmud. cannot remember the author. had to leave alot of books behind when i joined the military. i miss them. Peace 🙂
How have you used them? As luminous commentaries of the Bible, or otherwise too?
 
The origin of the term Kabbalah is unknown. It means essentially in Hebrew, “to receive, to accept a tradition” – referring to its ancient beginnings and subsequent additions transmitted orally down through the centuires up until the Middle Ages.

Some in Orthodox Judaism (an offshoot) say this knowledge was given to Adam as a way for him to regain a relationship with God. However and whenever it came, the knowledge given to Adam - some say Moses - was transmitted orally by the patriarchs and prophets. Rabbis, during the exilic period of the 6th Century B.C. and up until 1000 A.D. further developed this belief.

The Kabbalah consists of a body of mystical speculation on the nature of divinity, the creation, the origin and fate of the soul, and the role of human beings. It attempts to link the relationship between an essentially unknowable Creator with the finite and mortal universe of His creation. And so, it consists of meditative, devotional, and magical practices.

One of the fundamental concepts of theirs is their concept of God, which says that His true essence is so transcendent that “It” (God is not really him or her) cannot be described, except with reference to what “It” is not. This true essence of God encompasses the idea that “It” has no boundaries in both time and space. “It” is so transcendent that “It” cannot have any direct interaction with the universe, except through the ten emanations or extraordinary aspects of God that He used to create the universe. Followers call these emanations branches to the tree of life. So in a sense, God – this impersonal “It” - and the people who believe in Him have no direct connection except by rare and direct revelation.

The doctrines or tenets of Traditional Kabbalah also speak of a before and after life here on earth. Proponents use as their basis for living in another life cycle (that is, reincarnation) on such Scripture passages as Jeremiah 1:5 that says: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you…” They claim this verse suggests a prior existence. They also refer to the time when Saul speaks with the dead prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 28:3-25) as proof of an afterlife.

Thirdly, Kabbalah teaches that there is no hell, only seven heavens. God resides in the seventh and people reside in the lower six in transcending order according to their deeds. And they have repeated chances to move upward.

No proponent claims to understand all of what has been written by religious Jews down through the ages. Rabbis have long believed the philosophy behind the tenets are so complicated that they can only be taught to ultra-religious Jewish men over 40 who had spent their lives studying Judaism.
 
I would be careful about studying the Kabbalah if you are not firmly grounded in the Faith, and if you are not studying authentic sources, because there is an easy danger of falling into Gnosticism, to which it is closely related. The real Kabbalah was a system of mystical interpretations of the Torah - studying medieval exegesis (such as Cardinal Lubac’s excellent study of the subject) might be a good preparation. The practice of magic, which follows from the accentuated belief in the power of the Word, is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN for a Christian and is a mortal sin which would need to be confessed.
 
I should have quoted the Catechism in the last post, rather than just my own opinion on the matter.

Paragraph 2117: All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.
 
I would be careful about studying the Kabbalah if you are not firmly grounded in the Faith, and if you are not studying authentic sources, because there is an easy danger of falling into Gnosticism, to which it is closely related. The real Kabbalah was a system of mystical interpretations of the Torah - studying medieval exegesis (such as Cardinal Lubac’s excellent study of the subject) might be a good preparation. The practice of magic, which follows from the accentuated belief in the power of the Word, is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN for a Christian and is a mortal sin which would need to be confessed.
I agree. Really understanding it would probably require a scholarly knowlege of the original languages (since the actual Hebrew letters in words are often highly significant) and the Talmud.

Kabbalah study was traditionally restricted to Jewish men of good character who had mastered the fundamentals (Torah/Talmud). The reason for this is that mystical texts are very easily misinterpreted, and if taken literally turn into superstition or heresy [from both a Jewish and a Christian standpoint]. The New Age Kabbalah fad (i.e. Madonna’s red strings, magic drinking water, etc.) is a good example of why Kabbalah was not taught to just anyone.

Many orthodox scholars have been suspicious of the Kabbalah. I should emphasize that the really important texts in Jewish law are the Tankh (old testament), Mishnah, and Talmud. Kabbalah is similar in some respects to highly mystical Catholic works, which may be theologically controversial and possibly misleading for someone without a clear understanding of doctrine.
 
How have you used them? As luminous commentaries of the Bible, or otherwise too?
i have used them for this purpose, and simply study of the way the Hebrew language can be looked at. if you look at genisis 1:1 there are about 100 ways that this verse could be translated. remember the original hebrew charachters had no vowels. also if you look at the tree of life. and know how to connect the spheres, you will notice that the top forms a star of david, and the bottom forms a cross. not to mention i get really interested when rabbis start discussing things in depth with eachother. i think the zoar proves just how deep the bible really is. and what we have is sacred, and from God. another poster stated he would be careful about studying this unless your grounded in your faith. i would have to say i agree. also, bear in mind with the heavier meditation practices, such as the the chariot where they ascend the spheres, take years of training, and i would really advise against it even then. its very dangerous. but as an academic exercise, or for the lighter meditaion techniques, its wonderful. but we can get the same medetation effect from the rosary, stations of the cross. first friday adoration etc. Peace 🙂
 
I agree. Really understanding it would probably require a scholarly knowlege of the original languages (since the actual Hebrew letters in words are often highly significant) and the Talmud.

Kabbalah study was traditionally restricted to Jewish men of good character who had mastered the fundamentals (Torah/Talmud). The reason for this is that mystical texts are very easily misinterpreted, and if taken literally turn into superstition or heresy [from both a Jewish and a Christian standpoint]. The New Age Kabbalah fad (i.e. Madonna’s red strings, magic drinking water, etc.) is a good example of why Kabbalah was not taught to just anyone.

Many orthodox scholars have been suspicious of the Kabbalah. I should emphasize that the really important texts in Jewish law are the Tankh (old testament), Mishnah, and Talmud. Kabbalah is similar in some respects to highly mystical Catholic works, which may be theologically controversial and possibly misleading for someone without a clear understanding of doctrine.
hi david. do the men still have to be around 40 years old to begin study? peace 🙂
 
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