Kant and the moral argument for God

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One of the common apologetics talking points I’ve heard is that God is necessary for a universal set of ethics. “How does an atheist know that slaughtering people is wrong?” the argument typically goes. “Only through a universal set of right and wrong to which we all have access – natural law that we receive from God.”

To me, this argument always seemed simplistic. I studied philosophy in college, and studied enough ethics to know that many ethical systems that have been put forth in western thought since the Renaissance do not rely on God directly.

Immanual Kant was a German philosopher, who is probably best known for his notion that ethnics should only be based on a “categorical imperative.” To Kant, that imperative is based on the notion that a person should only act according to a maxim that would apply to anyone. Here’s a quote from his “Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals,”
"There is, therefore, only a single categorical imperative and it is this: act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law.”
To Kant, the ethics of a situation cannot be defined by one’s experience of pleasure or pain (or expectation of reward or fear of punishment), which is the basis of the Aristotelian system of ethics that are also reflected in Thomism. To Kant, the rightness of one’s actions are only based on one’s respect for the “moral law” that comes from the categorical imperative. Much of Kantian ethics focuses on a respect for one’s reason, and accordingly, a respect for the reason of others (as filtered through the categorical imperative). So for example, my killing a random person on the street would be wrong, according to Kant, because I would not apply the universal maxim that it’s OK to kill random people.

Due to Kant’s strict respect for human reason, philosophers and ethicists who embrace his philosophy sometimes express a preference for fully-conscious people over less-than-conscious entities, such as unborn fetuses and people in persistent vegetative states.

On first blush, Kant’s ethics would seem to be an example of an absolute morality that makes no reference to God. However, I would raise a few (possible) objections, and I’m wondering if any other apologists might help.

Since the categorical imperative demands that people only act according to maxims that they would be willing to apply to everyone, Kant requires that people make moral judgments about what ethnical norms are applicable universally. A rational person, in making this determination, would therefore examine her own self-interest and make a judgment about the risk to herself of various choices available to her. She might say that killing strangers is bad because she might be killed by a stranger, or that stealing is bad because a stranger might steal something from her. In making allowing consideration into the “categorical imperative,” Kant seems to build into his ethics something that he considers to be unethical: a reliance on pleasure and pain, or the hope/fear of pleasure or pain.

In that regard, under Kant’s ethics, humans make an assessment of rational self-interest in determining what’s allowed under their own categorical imperatives. But if that’s the case, Kant doesn’t get past what he rejects in Aristotle: that is, the notion that the good is what leads one to greater happiness.
 
I sympathize with your criticism, though I would put it in different words. If your interpretation of Kant is that he thought you can have morality without God, so long as the actions you take are morally do-able by all, that doesn’t get us to the ground of morality. It basically says that you can determine morality by only doing moral things, which is circular.

Suppose that I don’t want the law “kill a random stranger” applied by all; then we have to ask the question, why not? Is it because it’s morally wrong? If so, then why? If it is for a supposedly nonmoral reason, like “because then everyone would die,” or “because the economy would crash,” I submit that even those reasons are based on the idea that the consequences would be morally bad, and thus you still need to ask why.

IMO, the categorical imperative does but reveal a foundation for morality, but assumes one. And the only foundation that makes sense to me is, God made the world and its creatures, including us, and therefore we owe it to Him not to use the world and its creatures in ways that He doesn’t intend. (And God’s intentions for His creatures can be discovered through natural law and teleology.)
 
One of the common apologetics talking points I’ve heard is that God is necessary for a universal set of ethics. “How does an atheist know that slaughtering people is wrong?” the argument typically goes. “Only through a universal set of right and wrong to which we all have access – natural law that we receive from God.”

To me, this argument always seemed simplistic. I studied philosophy in college, and studied enough ethics to know that many ethical systems that have been put forth in western thought since the Renaissance do not rely on God directly.

Immanual Kant was a German philosopher, who is probably best known for his notion that ethnics should only be based on a “categorical imperative.” To Kant, that imperative is based on the notion that a person should only act according to a maxim that would apply to anyone. Here’s a quote from his “Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals,”
"There is, therefore, only a single categorical imperative and it is this: act only in accordance with that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law.”
To Kant, the ethics of a situation cannot be defined by one’s experience of pleasure or pain (or expectation of reward or fear of punishment), which is the basis of the Aristotelian system of ethics that are also reflected in Thomism. To Kant, the rightness of one’s actions are only based on one’s respect for the “moral law” that comes from the categorical imperative. Much of Kantian ethics focuses on a respect for one’s reason, and accordingly, a respect for the reason of others (as filtered through the categorical imperative). So for example, my killing a random person on the street would be wrong, according to Kant, because I would not apply the universal maxim that it’s OK to kill random people.

Due to Kant’s strict respect for human reason, philosophers and ethicists who embrace his philosophy sometimes express a preference for fully-conscious people over less-than-conscious entities, such as unborn fetuses and people in persistent vegetative states.

On first blush, Kant’s ethics would seem to be an example of an absolute morality that makes no reference to God. However, I would raise a few (possible) objections, and I’m wondering if any other apologists might help.

Since the categorical imperative demands that people only act according to maxims that they would be willing to apply to everyone, Kant requires that people make moral judgments about what ethnical norms are applicable universally. A rational person, in making this determination, would therefore examine her own self-interest and make a judgment about the risk to herself of various choices available to her. She might say that killing strangers is bad because she might be killed by a stranger, or that stealing is bad because a stranger might steal something from her. In making allowing consideration into the “categorical imperative,” Kant seems to build into his ethics something that he considers to be unethical: a reliance on pleasure and pain, or the hope/fear of pleasure or pain.

In that regard, under Kant’s ethics, humans make an assessment of rational self-interest in determining what’s allowed under their own categorical imperatives. But if that’s the case, Kant doesn’t get past what he rejects in Aristotle: that is, the notion that the good is what leads one to greater happiness.
Why wouldn’t the rational person in your example say that killing strangers is bad because the lives of EVERYONE would be in danger, including that of her own, but also those of her family, her friends, her co-workers, the people who live in her neighborhood, her town, and her country? Moreover, society would be unbearably chaotic and dysfunctional to everyone if random shootings occurred on a typical basis. The behavior and goals of all interactive members of society would be severely limited, and in this sense the moral dimension of society would dissolve, as Kant’s categorical imperative suggests.
 
the lives of EVERYONE would be in danger, including that of her own, but also those of her family, her friends, her co-workers, the people who live in her neighborhood, her town, and her country? Moreover, society would be unbearably chaotic and dysfunctional to everyone if random shootings occurred on a typical basis.
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/553000/553204_1286180313233_full.jpg

And that’s…bad…?

The problem with Godless morality is that all it comes down to is, I don’t like X. That doesn’t make X bad, and if anyone likes X, it gives them license to do it.
 
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/553000/553204_1286180313233_full.jpg
And that’s…bad…?

The problem with Godless morality is that all it comes down to is, I don’t like X. That doesn’t make X bad, and if anyone likes X, it gives them license to do it.
OK, upon re-reading your comment, I see your point. Still, why assume the worst in human behavior and that people’s actions are always selfish without an absolute moral standard? Morality through reason, a kind of social contract, may not be the ideal but it is a type of behavioral morality that allows society to function at a practical level, even if it cannot entirely stand up to a well-defined philosophical argument.
 
The categorical imperative basis for morality falls apart when we consider non-violent acts.

For example, a married couple have an open marriage. Either of them can have sex with any consenting adult.
What’s the harm in that? 😃

Never mind the effects on the kids or anything like that. Maybe there are no kids. We must judge the action on its own basis. What’s the harm? 😃
Would any Kantian philosopher approve of open marriage, or other such harmless activities? 🤷
 
I would agree with empther,

The Categorical Imperative is not an actual universal, objective source of Ethics.

To be so, it would have to allow for the determination of morality individual actions distinctly from time, location or person.

The example that empther gave of adultery is spot on. Under the categorical imperative, an act of adultery might or might not be moral depending on if the participants consider the duty of fidelity to even exists apriori or should be considered to be a universal law.

As such, it is a relativistic morality.
 
Brendan,
As such, it is a relativistic morality.
Right on, brother! 👍

Kant is one of the “let’s start over from scratch” philosophers. “Let’s begin with a blank piece of paper and see where we get.”

You can’t get to God as understood by Catholics, or our place in the scheme of things, or our salvation if any, when you’re doing what feels right. If everybody was Kantian we’d have chaos because there would be no absolute standards.

Interesting that Nazism arose partly from the German atheistic philosophies. The Nazis were trying to make the world a better place, don’t you know! :bigyikes: :banghead: :crying:
 
The categorical imperative basis for morality falls apart when we consider non-violent acts.

For example, a married couple have an open marriage. Either of them can have sex with any consenting adult.
What’s the harm in that? 😃

Never mind the effects on the kids or anything like that. Maybe there are no kids. We must judge the action on its own basis. What’s the harm? 😃
Would any Kantian philosopher approve of open marriage, or other such harmless activities? :shrug:
As someone who respects Kant greatly, I think that the answer to your bolded question would depend on the couple involved. Some couples would have the make-up where such a system would work…others would not.

Each case, violent or non-violent, requires the same examination of the facts at hand and the potential impact on others. Personally, I think Kant was on the right track.
 
As a believer that morality is a man–made system, I have great respect for much of what Kant wrote. His belief in God was more of a utilitarian belief, but he did believe, according to his writings, believe in God and arrived at that conclusion in an interesting fashion.

I haven’t read all of Kant in detail, but what I have read, I generally respect.
The Nazi’s came to power because of a very bad Treaty of Versailles that blamed Germany for something they never started and sent them into an economic tailspin. Because of that, a previously tiny group of radicals was able to gain publicity and, through some ingenious manipulation of the German legal system, ultimate power.
 
The Nazi’s came to power because of a very bad Treaty of Versailles that blamed Germany for something they never started and sent them into an economic tailspin. Because of that, a previously tiny group of radicals was able to gain publicity and, through some ingenious manipulation of the German legal system, ultimate power.
yes, but those radicals were inspirited by the atheist, Nietzsche. Nietzsche started with the premise that there is no God, and deduced from there that there could be no moral system at all.

Moral systems were really illusions contrived by the lesser men to control the greater men (Ubermenschen, literally ‘supermen’)
 
Still, why assume the worst in human behavior and that people’s actions are always selfish without an absolute moral standard? Morality through reason, a kind of social contract, may not be the ideal but it is a type of behavioral morality that allows society to function at a practical level, even if it cannot entirely stand up to a well-defined philosophical argument.
You must be a libertarian? :confused:

The problem with this approach is that Reason is not infallible. It is at the service of Will. With God as the absolute we can depend on Reason and Will being united and in harmony. Without God we can depend on finding the absolute located in one of two places: the State or the Ego, sometimes both united in harmony, as in the case of Hitler or Napoleon. We see some of that right now in North Korea, which has about the weirdest social morality in the world. It relies upon absolute force … and that force is hardly divine, though the one wielding it seems to think he is a god. Sooner or later in every culture an absolute morality emerges, and the absolute morality you get without God is going to the Devil’s, for sure. :eek:

This is happening in America today.
 
While it may have not have been the Christian God, or any God as we would view them, the first people of North America seem to have functioned quite well for thousands of years. They managed to get along somehow, established their own systems of government and legal systems They had their problems, but they got through them.
Their relatively peaceful existence for thousands of years seems to dispute the notion that man needs a particular god to live morally. In fact, where religion held the greatest power (Central & South America), is where we saw human sacrifice, human deification, class warfare etc.
This is also found among may of the people of the very early British Isles. In the areas where the religions were least organized (Orkney Islands) for example, there seem to be well-functioning societies.

Just some things to consider.
 
Their relatively peaceful existence for thousands of years seems to dispute the notion that man needs a particular god to live morally. In fact, where religion held the greatest power (Central & South America), is where we saw human sacrifice, human deification, class warfare etc.
This is also found among may of the people of the very early British Isles. In the areas where the religions were least organized (Orkney Islands) for example, there seem to be well-functioning societies.
Very primitive societies became well functioning by luck, not design. How could they become unlucky? If there developed a priest class who chose to acquire power for themselves by terror, by human sacrifice as in Central and South America, or by sacrifice of infants as in the Baal rite in ancient Mesopotamia, and countless other examples.
What does this have to do with the Christian God? Absolutely nothing, unless you consider what happens in a pagan society.

As for Indians being peaceful if they had no structured religion… 😊
The Indian tribes of the eastern North America, what is today the Quebec to New York region were always at war with each other and treated prisoners horribly. The French people of Quebec still refer to Indians as “savages” ( sauvages ). The early French missionaries like Father Brebeuf converted some of them and once converted they became very peaceful.
Just some things to consider.
Some things to forget. 😃
 
Very primitive societies became well functioning by luck, not design. How could they become unlucky? If there developed a priest class who chose to acquire power for themselves by terror, by human sacrifice as in Central and South America, or by sacrifice of infants as in the Baal rite in ancient Mesopotamia, and countless other examples.
What does this have to do with the Christian God? Absolutely nothing, unless you consider what happens in a pagan society.

As for Indians being peaceful if they had no structured religion… 😊
The Indian tribes of the eastern North America, what is today the Quebec to New York region were always at war with each other and treated prisoners horribly. The French people of Quebec still refer to Indians as “savages” ( sauvages ). The early French missionaries like Father Brebeuf converted some of them and once converted they became very peaceful.

Some things to forget. 😃
Do you mean these so-called Indian “sauvages” did an about face and changed their ferocious personalities shortly after they were converted to Christianity? Somehow this all sounds to me as something akin to White Man’s Burden.
 
Do you mean these so-called Indian “sauvages” did an about face and changed their ferocious personalities shortly after they were converted to Christianity? Somehow this all sounds to me as something akin to White Man’s Burden.
The about face was forced upon them by the creation of tribal reservations, where the only people they could an longer attack were each other. That was enough to pacify many of them. Some did choose Christianity, and left the reservation to join the Christian mainstream if they could.

The Franciscan monk Junipero Serra was supposed to be a missionary to the Indians near San Antonio, Texas. But it was discovered before the start of his trip that Indians had attacked the mission and killed everyone there, including a lone Franciscan priest who was decapitated, after which the savages gleefully played ball with his head according to one survivor. Serra was sent to California instead, where he built all those great missions along the Camino Real.

Savagery is universal. Bad religion sometimes adds to it, but good religion tends to suppress it.
 
Do you mean these so-called Indian “sauvages” did an about face and changed their ferocious personalities shortly after they were converted to Christianity? Somehow this all sounds to me as something akin to White Man’s Burden.
Aw, don’t throw that at me, meltzerboy. :mad:

I’m of French Quebec descent myself, and when I was a little boy the French were still being sneered at as dumb frogs who could only work jobs in the textile mills which drew us down here from our miserable Quebec farms in the first place.
 
The Franciscan monk Junipero Serra was supposed to be a missionary to the Indians near San Antonio, Texas. But it was discovered before the start of his trip that Indians had attacked the mission and killed everyone there, including a lone Franciscan priest who was decapitated, after which the savages gleefully played ball with his head according to one survivor. :sleep:
That’s nothing. :coffeeread:

What the Indians in Canada did to Father Brebeuf was,…

…er… 😊
if I told you the moderators would ban me for life.

You’ll have to look it up yourself if you can find it. It’s not on wikipedia.
 
Quote:
Do you mean these so-called Indian “sauvages” did an about face and changed their ferocious personalities shortly after they were converted to Christianity? Somehow this all sounds to me as something akin to White Man’s Burden.
Aw, don’t throw that at me, meltzerboy. :mad:

From my book, a few chapters of which are about the OPEC/Israel crisis wherein young Catholic girl Theresa saves Israel’s neck and gives them a magnificent 500 mile wide island in the North Atlantic, which she allowed Prime Minister Scherzer himself to design on paper, but never asked anything for herself… :eek: 👍
… There was one matter to clear up. I wrote a letter to Prime Minister Blair who read it to the House of Commons.
*… “Dear Mr. Blair, People say I should be given the Nobel Peace Prize for the Israel situation. It should be given to Prime Minister Scherzer. He’s heroic. Anybody would have told him to stay in Israel and prepare for the fight. So what did he do? He came to London to see a girl who had no ties to Judaism, who couldn’t find Israel on a map, who had no interest in politics or war, who might not be able to do anything at all about Israel, who might not even care what happened to Israel. Aren’t politicians supposed to take care of those things? He threw all his chips in the pot and came away with a royal straight flush. Your friend, Theresa” *
Later,
Theresa is in a tight spot in Korea. Scherzer calls her on the phone with an idea that saves the day…
… I rushed to the phone.
… "Prime Minister?”
… “Do you remember what we discussed about Jerusalem?”
… I did remember. I was going to move the city to the new Jewish island. The plan was put on hold. Nobody except Peter Blair had ever been told about the idea.
… “I remember! Pyongyang, hunh?”
… “Pyongyang.“
… “What a great idea! Is this payback time, Mr. Scherzer?”
… “I hope so.”
… “You saved millions of lives. I’ll tell the world about it. Good by, sir.”
 
Why wouldn’t the rational person in your example say that killing strangers is bad because the lives of EVERYONE would be in danger, including that of her own, but also those of her family, her friends, her co-workers, the people who live in her neighborhood, her town, and her country? Moreover, society would be unbearably chaotic and dysfunctional to everyone if random shootings occurred on a typical basis. The behavior and goals of all interactive members of society would be severely limited, and in this sense the moral dimension of society would dissolve, as Kant’s categorical imperative suggests.
Kant’s categorical imperative presupposes the prior truth that the categorical imperative is true, good and ought to be followed: these are evaluative judgments needed prior to assessing the value of the categorical imperative. But what if there’s no God? Then the are are no evaluative truths: the universe is devoid of meaning, purpose and truth. Why must one follow an arbitrary illusion like telling the truth? You might say, “society would be unbearably chaotic and dysfunctional…”, but, again these are evaluative statements, who can say that order and peace is good in a meaningless universe?

God is needed for morality and evaluative judgements to be true.

This is not necessarily a problem for Kant since he believes that God makes sense of morality…but, it doesn’t save the categorical imperative. The problem is that it is abstract, does not admit qualification (absolutist) and tends fall apart in particular examples:

Should I tell the Nazi officer where I hid the fleeing Jews? let us assume that one should not tell a lie yet one lies to the Nazi about the location of the Jews. Telling a lie here might be wrong in a trivial sense, on the other hand, he also did something very good: save human lives, and prevent murder. The categorical imperative does not admit such qualifications: it is all or nothing.

What about the case of killing strangers? this one falls apart in particular cases: an enemy soldier is a stranger yet one can legitimately kill him, same applies to one that puts you in danger: a thief, a murderer and so forth.

The above shows that many moral laws override each other in certain situations: hitting a stranger to unconsciousness might be bad, but suppose you a have dying child in your arms and the man is resolutely blocking your way to the hospital, what would you do? The categorical imperative is too abstract, absolutist and does not accord with common sense morality
 
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