Keating, Catholic Answers take a swipe at evolution

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My understanding is that when He saw that **it was good, ** on the sixth day, He “rested” on the 7th because ALL CREATION had been completed!

No new thing has been or, is being created. Everything that was TO BE, were “completed” or set forth from that moment of completion.

There are a gazillion things yet to be discovered in this planet alone. We have JUST begun into the ‘nano-micro sphere’…

This does not mean they’ve just been whisked up ex nihilo, again.

**All that is left to be done is…discover and use. **

:cool:
 
God has authority over the laws of nature and he can interfere with them. He is not bound to them. They are not sacred laws. Nothing about God is mechanical,and he does not work in nature in a mechanical fashion. He works in nature by his personal involvement. The creation of living creatures is personal creation.
Everything that lives has spirit,which is from God. The very processes of life come into existence and are sustained by spirit.
Laws cannot make creatures come into existence.

See post 68.
Excellent post – thank you.

God is personal. He is not a machine or a “process” or some kind of force bound by natural laws.

Every Catholic must accept that God has intervened in nature and has deliberately broken the natural laws that He created. The saints have done this many times also. We are called to rise above nature and live a supernatural life. The nature of man tends to disorder, sin and death. Through the grace of God we rise above that - to a life of the spirit (which generates all life) – a life that is beyond nature and beyond science.

Using the natural laws to circumscribe the works of God is a futile exercise that leads to many errors. This was Darwin’s error. God’s presence in nature moves things towards the good in varying degrees, depending on His purposes.

Nature is the book in which God writes his parables for humanity. Darwin believed in a nature where God is absent. Thus, we have the bleak view of competition, extinction and struggle for survival where everything is bound by mechanical laws. Supposedly, these laws created the diversity of nature by accident (and thus nature is a freak assemblage of mutations) not a vision of the glory of God.

That’s basic Darwinism – the textbook version.

We have many Darwinian-apologists who want to re-write this teaching so that it is supposedly compatible with Faith. But the overwhelming consensus in the science community is that evolution produced everything without meaning, purpose or direction – it’s an accidental by-product of laws.
 
Why would He need to interfere with His own laws?
I think you’re on the right track. It’s a serious question at the heart of this endless debate. “Why would God …?”

I think you propose the standard Darwinian view: God does not interfere with the laws of nature. All of reality is explained through natural laws alone. Therefore, science does not have to give any consideration to the influence that God could have had in nature.

In the Catholic view, we can’t accept that because we have evidence that God did interfere with His own laws. With that, we recognize that God does not view the natural laws as “sacred” and “unchangeable”. They are merely put in place to provide some consistency in nature so that mankind can experience a semblance of order in a fallen world. God breaks His laws to show us that he is Supreme over them, and is not bound by them.

If God is present at all, His power has an impact to a greater or lesser degree.
 
Well, if you read the official statments from the magisterium they clearly say that God created EACH organism(evolution says the opposite of that) out of nothing. Pius XII clearly taugh that Adam’s sin was a historical fact. I think the best you can say(about evolution) is just what Pius XII said about polygenism. That we cant see a way it could be compatible with scripture and Church teaching.
I think it’s funny that no one has quoted from the Creation account in Genesis yet…
Gen. 2:4-7
4]These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5] when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up – for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
6] **but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground **–
7] then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ok, here is my commentary on these verses:

v.4: This is the account of what happened during the Creation

v.5 The earth was already in existence before the plant life on it. God used rain to water the earth and cause plants to grow. This would suggest that the seeds were already present in the earth. It does not confirm or deny that he created these seeds immediately from nothing. Also it does not confirm or deny that he created them by using some process on the earth before the rains. As it says in Gen. 1:20
20]And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.”
This shows us he used the waters to bring forth life on the earth. Ultimately everything created was created out of nothing, but he uses what he had previously created, the earth specifically, as a tool to bring forth life on it.

v.7 God did not create man immediately out of nothing, but he again used what had already been created, namely the dust of the ground. And note the wording…he **FORMED **man of dust from the ground. It also goes on to say that he breathed life into the nostrils of man and man became a living being. We also see in Gen 1:30 that all living things are described as having the breath of life.

Clearly we see what God had previously created from nothing he then used to cause life on the earth. It does not say HOW he caused life to happen, but it does involve some process on the earth and uses water and dust…
 
The constant Catholic teaching has been the body an soul were created together by God at the same time.
Gen 2:7
7] then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Our body was already made when it received the breath of life. They were not simultaneous.
 
“It does not say how” When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, how? Turned the water to wine? Created everything from nothing?

This shows how man wishes to place natural limits on God when, in fact, God has no such limits.

Investigate, but do not forget the fact that God can literally make something from nothing. To try to place God inside natural laws ignores his demonstrated capabilities as shown by Jesus Christ. The paralytic who was told to take up his pallet and go home. No physical therapy, nothing. And how?

God bless,
Ed
 
“It does not say how” When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, how? Turned the water to wine? Created everything from nothing?

This shows how man wishes to place natural limits on God when, in fact, God has no such limits.

Investigate, but do not forget the fact that God can literally make something from nothing. To try to place God inside natural laws ignores his demonstrated capabilities as shown by Jesus Christ. The paralytic who was told to take up his pallet and go home. No physical therapy, nothing. And how?

God bless,
Ed
I’m not saying he can’t make something out of nothing…and indeed he does! But he made all life come out of the earth…not from nothing! Well, except for our souls which he breathed into us directly from him. Oh, and of course the universe was created from nothing, so transitively every living being is created from nothing…

I’m not placing God inside natural laws…but he created nature and can use it how and for whatever he sees fit. Denying that would be denying the power of God.

Blessings,
Q
 
God made the laws of nature exactly the way He wanted them. Why would He need to interfere with His own laws?
Because he did not give them his creative power and intelligence.
Laws of nature are just patterns,sequences,processes,and boundaries,which have no substance of their own.
Imagine two pool players. The first player takes his shot, but miscues slightly and has to nudge the cueball in order to get it to where he wants. The second pool player takes her shot and does not miscue; the cueball goes exactly where she wants it to without any further intervention. Which player is the better pool player?
The one who wins more often.
God sets the starting conditions and God sets the rules. God can get exactly the result He wants without any further intervention.
But God does intervene. He intervenes with miracles and he intervened with the Incarnation and the Resurrection.
God did not create a mechanically determined world. He created a world in which there is freedom of movement as well as laws.
Why not if it is God who makes the laws? God is said to be omnipotent after all; is He incapable of making such laws?
If God had made laws of nature that could make creatures come into existence,then he would not be omnipotent over the world.
If God had created the natural world to be it’s own creator,he would have created another god.
 
If God had made laws of nature that could make creatures come into existence,then he would not be omnipotent over the world.
If so, every organism that is brought forth by other organisms is proof that God is not omnipotent over the world. But it’s not so; an omnipotent being is perfectly capable of producing such a world.
 
If so, every organism that is brought forth by other organisms is proof that God is not omnipotent over the world. But it’s not so; an omnipotent being is perfectly capable of producing such a world.
You should know that Catholic teaching is that God is Almighty, meaning He does what He sets out to do. There are things God cannot do.
 
think you propose the standard Darwinian view: God does not interfere with the laws of nature.
Generally, he does not. Even Darwin admitted the existence of exceptions. So it’s never been the Darwinian view that God doesn’t interfer from time to time. It’s that He interfers so infrequently as to make nature reliably predictable.

As you suggest, God doesn’t intervene in nature because He must; He does it to teach us something. Hence, He has no need to tinker with the system, as IDers imagine. It works right the first time.
 
Generally, he does not. Even Darwin admitted the existence of exceptions. So it’s never been the Darwinian view that God doesn’t interfer from time to time. It’s that He interfers so infrequently as to make nature reliably predictable.

As you suggest, God doesn’t intervene in nature because He must; He does it to teach us something. Hence, He has no need to tinker with the system, as IDers imagine. It works right the first time.
When you add in that many of the laws of nature bring about certain results, they themselves have a purpose, God’s purpose.
 
If so, every organism that is brought forth by other organisms is proof that God is not omnipotent over the world. But it’s not so; an omnipotent being is perfectly capable of producing such a world.
“Brought forth” is not the same as created. A woman brings forth a child,but it is God who ultimately creates the child,because it is God who gives his spirit to physical matter,making the processes of life happen. God did not create an independent world which creates it’s own.
 
“Brought forth” is not the same as created.
It refers to the way He created. God uses nature to create many things, such as life, new living things, and new species.
 
Barbarian observes:
If so, every organism that is brought forth by other organisms is proof that God is not omnipotent over the world. But it’s not so; an omnipotent being is perfectly capable of producing such a world.
You should know that Catholic teaching is that God is Almighty, meaning He does what He sets out to do. There are things God cannot do.
If you assert that He cannot do this, you have departed from the teaching of the Church.
 
Barbarian observes:
If so, every organism that is brought forth by other organisms is proof that God is not omnipotent over the world. But it’s not so; an omnipotent being is perfectly capable of producing such a world.

If you assert that He cannot do this, you have departed from the teaching of the Church.
Barb - I have repeatedly shown you where you have departed from the constant teaching of the Church.

And now you question me? I simply was making a distinction between omnipotence and almighty.
 
I think you propose the standard Darwinian view: God does not interfere with the laws of nature.
God does not interfere with the laws of nature (at least not in the normal course of events) becauuse God set up those laws and the initial conditions to give precisely the result God wanted. God designed the universe so that life would self-assemble.
All of reality is explained through natural laws alone. Therefore, science does not have to give any consideration to the influence that God could have had in nature.
Science limits itself to natural laws alone. It neither confirms nor denies the existence of the supernatural. All of material reality is potentially explainable through natural laws. Supernatural reality is not.
In the Catholic view, we can’t accept that because we have evidence that God did interfere with His own laws.
But only rarely and not in such a way that we can detect the effects now. Jesus may have walked on water, but that has no detectable material effect here and now. Transubstantiation has no detectable material effects here and now.

rossum
 
For the Catholic, we are in contact with the Living God here and now. Miracles happen today. They are examined by Church commissions chaired by all those involved, including doctors and other specialists.

To say that God has no actual effects on our lives right now is to deny God or to have a form of godliness but denying its power. We do not pray to no one. The fervent, effectual prayer of the righteous man availeth much. Sin is real. Confession is real. The body and blood of Christ are real.

Or you could just attribute all this to evolutionary psychology. I hope you understand why there is a conflict.

Peace,
Ed
 
God does not interfere with the laws of nature (at least not in the normal course of events) becauuse God set up those laws and the initial conditions to give precisely the result God wanted. God designed the universe so that life would self-assemble.
Your response appears to be a mixture of science, faith and assumption. I will start with the assumption. You state that God does interfere with the laws of nature but that this is not the “normal course of events”. I would think that we’d need some science to determine whether it was normal or not. This point is absolutely critical to the work of evolutionists since if it could be shown that God does interfere with the laws of nature in the normal course of events, then this fact would need to be understood and seriously factored into the speculations of evolutionists (and other scientists).
All of material reality is potentially explainable through natural laws.
Since God does intervene in nature, then this statement is not correct. Not all of material reality is explainable through natural laws since we’ve already established that God is the explanation for some (as yet unidentified and unmeasured) aspects of material reality – those cases where He intervenes.
But only rarely and not in such a way that we can detect the effects now.
You state here that God only intervenes in the natural laws “rarely”. This is clearly a measurement – subject to science. “Rarely” is a means of comparison – measuring the rate of God’s intervention.

We can see in Catholic history that God has intervened in nature, overturning natural laws many times. Perhaps if we look at the documented records of all of those interventions, we could conclude that “God only directly intervenes rarely, because the documented records only indicate some activity”.

But this limits God’s interventions to those recorded in documents. It is quite a big assumption to claim that God has only directly intervened in the natural laws on the occasions where it was recorded in writing somewhere. Beyond this, these are observable interventions. Once we acknowledge that God has superceded His natural laws, even if “rarely” (although it could be “constantly”), then science cannot be certain that God is not always active in creating nature in ways that supercede the natural laws.

On the theoretical level, science cannot fully explain material reality since the natural laws alone do not explain it.
Jesus may have walked on water, but that has no detectable material effect here and now.
This is a guess on your part. No scientific analysis was done on that miracle – and some claim that none could be done (which is false). The supernatual act could have been tested by science. But what effect did Jesus have on the development of nature? Why would a scientist assume that all the effects that Jesus had are immediately (or would ever be) visible to mankind?

We see that he intervened and overturned the natural law. I cannot see where there is any basis to claim that this had no effect on nature, or that He never intervened directly in nature many ways to affect the outcome and development of life.
Transubstantiation has no detectable material effects here and now.
In order to draw that conclusion, you must be able to measure the effects of this supernatural action. But supposedly, science is not capable of doing that. So science would not know if transubstantiation has detectable effects or not. Eucharistic miracles (Lanciano), however, do offer very detectable material effects in the here and now.

But the question you raised still stands. “Why would God intervene with His own laws?”

Catholics must believe that God has done so. But we do not know if this is “rare” or not. We know from the writings of saints who also overcame natural laws that God does this to show that he is supreme and authoritative over the laws of nature. And the saints show us that in becoming holy, we can overcome nature (as we all must) and can actually change the course of nature.
 
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