Keep hitting the same hurdles on the Catholic Church

[ArielRussu]

Yes, and none of that is the reason contraception is wrong and abstaining from sex when you need to space children is OK. (many people will try to explain it that way, but it is off base).

Because again, it isn’t any of the consequences or things surrounding the act, it is the act itself.

Whenever we engage in intercourse, we must respect God’s design and plan for intercourse. The decision is whether or not to engage in intercourse, not to engage in it and alter the act.

I plan on calling for therapy within the next week.

Anyhow, my “outburst” was not trying to be bitter as my trophy child analogy is an accurate description for my observations of the way people with dangerous medical issues who keep popping out kid after kid despite warnings from medical professionals as each of there pregnancies are VERY high risk, view there “medical miracles”. I’m not talking about people who get a surprise pregnancy.

Anyway, the types of couples I’m talking about they just seem to NOT care, they do not care that there actions may leave there 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc… children already alive motherless simply because:

“oh babies are so cute! I just can’t stop having them! Even though my doctor says I have a lot of scarring on my uterus and it may burst with another pregnancy or I have a rare genetic disease where the stress of pregnancy can make my heart explode from the strain, but I don’t care! What happens is up to God. I just want another baby! I already had 1, 2 or 3 with these risks and the complications during my pregnancy keep getting worse, but my children and I all lived so everything’s good! I love babies they are so cute and if I listened to the doctors, especially the one who removed me as a patient because a I didn’t 'take my health seriously ’ and they didn’t want to deal with my high risk pregnancy, my children wouldn’t be here! Who cares if I have multiple young children that still need there mother, as long as this cute baby I just had, which I hemorrhaged heavily during labor, is alive my death would be worth it! And my then motherless children would understand”.

I’ve read of people who have this mentality. It’s like since they’ve been so lucky despite risking there life with pregnancy after pregnancy they think that they have bragging rights to show off how religious and fruitful they are for having so many kids despite being warned not too by doctors. Of course, that is until, like I said, someone pushes there luck too far and they die. For, newsflash, God is not always going to keep “rescuing” you from every irresponsible and idiotic decision!

 

[Della]

I plan on calling for therapy within the next week.

Anyhow, my “outburst” was not trying to be bitter as my trophy child analogy is an accurate description for my observations of the way people with dangerous medical issues who keep popping out kid after kid despite warnings from medical professionals as each of there pregnancies are VERY high risk, view there “medical miracles”. I’m not talking about people who get a surprise pregnancy.

Anyway, the types of couples I’m talking about they just seem to NOT care, they do not care that there actions may leave there 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc… children already alive motherless simply because:

“oh babies are so cute! I just can’t stop having them! Even though my doctor says I have a lot of scarring on my uterus and it may burst with another pregnancy or I have a rare genetic disease where the stress of pregnancy can make my heart explode from the strain, but I don’t care! What happens is up to God. I just want another baby! I already had 1, 2 or 3 with these risks and the complications during my pregnancy keep getting worse, but my children and I all lived so everything’s good! I love babies they are so cute and if I listened to the doctors, especially the one who removed me as a patient because a I didn’t 'take my health seriously ’ and they didn’t want to deal with my high risk pregnancy, my children wouldn’t be here! Who cares if I have multiple young children that still need there mother, as long as this cute baby I just had, which I hemorrhaged heavily during labor, is alive my death would be worth it! And my then motherless children would understand”.

I’ve read of people who have this mentality. It’s like since they’ve been so lucky despite risking there life with pregnancy after pregnancy they think that they have bragging rights to show off how religious and fruitful they are for having so many kids despite being warned not too by doctors. Of course, that is until, like I said, someone pushes there luck too far and they die. For, newsflash, God is not always going to keep “rescuing” you from every irresponsible and idiotic decision!

Again, you’ve taken it upon yourself to judge others motives without really knowing anything about their lives and what is right for them. Frankly, who has children and who doesn’t and for what reasons are none of our business. That is between them and God alone. Judging your neighbor on your impressions of them is entirely wrong-headed and wrong-hearted. We all need to look to our own decisions and our own sins before heaping scorn on anyone else for theirs. You may want to discuss your tendency to judge so quickly and so harshly with your confessor.

 

[ArielRussu]

Again, you’ve taken it upon yourself to judge others motives without really knowing anything about their lives and what is right for them.

So you call playing, let’s call it by what it is, Russian Roulette with your life and risking your children growing up without a mother a responsible and sound minded decision? A “right decision” for them? Selfish much? And yes it is selfish if you pursue pregnancy knowing that it may end your life and leave your existing children motherless. I honestly wonder how the kids (especially the child who the mother died giving birth too, if they lived) would feel in that situation once they are old enough to understand the seriousness of there mothers condition and question the sanity of there parents who made the decision to get pregnant!

My aunt did this, although she did not die, she suffered terrible consequences all because she wanted another baby. My aunts body was not built to handle pregnancy (she went into liver failure with her first child) and her doctors told her too not get pregnant again and she did anyway. Her body reacted to the pregnancy by developing shingles, (the worse case the hospital had ever seen) and since she was pregnant and they couldn’t give her appropriate drugs in fear that the baby would be harmed, the shingles turned into post herpetic neuralgia. As a result, she has been in chronic pain (like knife stabbing you in the back 24/7, 7 days a week pain) and living at a pain level of 6 or higher, no cure is available only pain management treatments her body is becoming immune too, for 20 YEARS! And her son, although reminded it is NOT his fault, feels guilty for existing because he knows that if he was never conceived his mother would not be the way she is today.

I don’t know if you know anyone with post hermetic neuralgia but this disease is brutal! She has flare ups that last DAYS, even weeks, and NOTHING relieves the pain anymore! She’s shaking all the time, crying, yelling out in pain, walks like an 80 year old with severe arthritis and needs help getting up one stair! She doesn’t regret her son but said she would take the medication that would have cured the shingles, come to find out it doesn’t cause fetal abnormalities…

Frankly, who has children and who doesn’t and for what reasons are none of our business. That is between them and God alone.

Just like the different ways people use to avoid pregnancy is no ones business. It is between the couple and God and the option the couple feels called to; whether it be condoms, NFP, etc… Both “frustrate” the “marital act”, it doesn’t matter if you use rubber or have sex on non fertile days, both can fail if God wants them too. Heck, even tubal ligations and vasectomies fail! They don’t disrespect sex, your still doing the physical act itself! Both examples are done to prevent pregnancy as the main goal and separate procreation and pleasure.

Judging your neighbor on your impressions of them is entirely wrong-headed and wrong-hearted. We all need to look to our own decisions and our own sins before heaping scorn on anyone else for theirs. You may want to discuss your tendency to judge so quickly and so harshly with your confessor.

How am I judging my neighbors motives when the facts for there views are found on online blogs!

“We have 4 kids and I have a serious clotting disorder so each pregnancy is very high risk, but it’s all in Gods hands. I hope I don’t die, I hemorrhaged during my last pregnancy and lost a lot of blood, was in the hospital for a 2 weeks getting blood transfusions and my doctors said I should not get pregnant again but I just can’t help it! I love babies! Each child brought me so much joy despite the struggles and the fact I almost died in labor for each of them. If I get pregnant again, my husband and I want another! my kids would understand mommy gave her life for there brother/sister! Thus leaving them motherless at a young age and all the finances and child care/raising to daddy!”

I’m NOT judging, I am stating a fact. You put the children already a live FIRST, you don’t play with fire. You don’t seek to get pregnant and expect to be viewed as a martyr by giving your life for your child when you knew the risks going in and still decided you wanted to bring a life into this world. No, a martyr mother is like someone who gets pregnant then is diagnosed with cancer and forgoes chemotherapy treatments so baby can live and the mother dies of untreated cancer. We all have our crosses in life, but that should not mean we should go out looking for them!

 

[bitterhope]

Ariel,

We all get that you think reproduction is selfish and a curse from God. We get that. You’ve said it plenty of times. You purposely insult Catholic wives and mothers and try to pretend you don’t see how it is offensive. I have never in my life met a mother or father that views their children as trophies or behaves in the ways you describe. If you have, I can almost guarantee there is plenty behind the story you are not privy to. You keep putting off therapy. Within a week should have been years ago. You aren’t behaving as if you have PTSD as you state you’ve diagnosed yourself with. You are behaving as if you are just a mean judgmental bully that can’t stand to see others happy. Especially people that suffer and still are able to find joy. That being said, I pray for you. I have been for a while now. I will continue to pray for you. It’s very hard dealing with life sometimes. I know that. I haven’t had an easy ride of things myself. I hope one day you will realize that there are people that care enough to want you to find help and happiness.

 

[bitterhope]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.
2. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.
3. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

These are all things that most life long devout Catholics struggle with at least periodically as well. They are all difficult truths to accept. Prayer helps. Handing your will over to God and asking Him to work on your heart helps. You may never completely get over these troubling issues, many people never do, but you are to be admired for attempting to comprehend. Many people just never care enough to find explanations they understand and accept. May God continue to bless your journey towards Him

 

[ArielRussu]

Ariel,

We all get that you think reproduction is selfish and a curse from God. We get that. You’ve said it plenty of times. You purposely insult Catholic wives and mothers and try to pretend you don’t see how it is offensive. I have never in my life met a mother or father that views their children as trophies or behaves in the ways you describe. If you have, I can almost guarantee there is plenty behind the story you are not privy to. You keep putting off therapy. Within a week should have been years ago. You aren’t behaving as if you have PTSD as you state you’ve diagnosed yourself with. You are behaving as if you are just a mean judgmental bully that can’t stand to see others happy. Especially people that suffer and still are able to find joy. That being said, I pray for you. I have been for a while now. I will continue to pray for you. It’s very hard dealing with life sometimes. I know that. I haven’t had an easy ride of things myself. I hope one day you will realize that there are people that care enough to want you to find help and happiness.

Thanks for the prayers I need them, especially when I deal with therapy…

Anyhow, if people who risk there lives knowingly and the future of there existing children to have another baby despite medical advice NOT too or people with known inheritable disease, either because they have it themselves, have a child with it, etc…just so they can have a biological child and be happy, take offense too my words, that’s on them.

I actually have a cousin with PTSD (incest ) and if you ever saw the stuff they post on Facebook or Twitter, you’d think my posts are child’s play. PTSD is trauma done in the mind, we both are angry, very angry and trying to wrap our heads around why we were affected the way we were, and others were not. I might be a nurse, but I’m younger than people on this site may realize, I’m in my 20s but not far in by many years and I didn’t realize I had a problem UNTIL I was 20 years old. Before that, I repressed everything with the eating disorders and self hatred and honestly I was hoping it would go away if I distracted myself, thought positively but nope. From my posts alone, you can’t see irritable, easily startled, distracted and on edge I am when my brain won’t let go of a memory. You can’t experience the low mood and difficulty breathing and feel the chills or heaviness in my chest or the panic rising up in my body when I’m triggered. You don’t experience what’s it’s like to fight to divert your thoughts and try and force your thoughts into a different topic. You don’t see me visibly shake or start crying. I was diagnosed with OCD in high school, so I’m prone to ruminating and intrusive thoughts that don’t like to go away!

I write my posts as a way to wrap my head around and formulate my opinion about topics I do not agree with, after all everyone on these forums are posting there opinions whether or not they think they are or not. Beliefs are a persons perceptions and opinions about life and aspects in it, everyone has some beliefs too help them through life, whether it’s trust God or, I had a terrible life and the world owes me a favor and I’ll beat up anyone who gets in my way (my cousins perception sadly, there getting better though, only took 10 years of therapy).

I’m NOT a mean judgmental bully, I’m a realist and call it as I see it.

 

[phil19034]

Thank-you for your very informative posts! Much appreciated.

In terms of Contraception, I don’t think I explained myself very well. I agree with the Church on hormonal birth control such as the pill because of its abortive effect sometimes.

Where I struggle is the methods which cause no harm to a fertilised egg, they just break the “unity” that the Catholic Church speak of so condoms, hysterectomy and vasectemy. I think a hysterectomy is the only fool proof method (I know the church permits them for medical purposes but I’m talking about contraceptive purposes here). If a woman is told that if she ever gets pregnant she will probably die, I can’t understand how she can ever be open to life or why something like a hysterectomy (which doesn’t kill a foetus it just prevents pregnancy permanently) is considered wrong?

condoms, hysterectomies and vasectomies are wrong for the same reason that hormonal birth control is wrong.

Birth Control is a selfish act. Sex and pregnancy are both gifts from God.

Let’s imagine that a rich uncle left you in their will $100,000 with the intent that you use it for college. However, you decide that you’re not ready for college yet. But instead of saving that money until you are ready, you want to use it now to “have fun” and to enjoy and express yourself.

Is that ok? Or is it perhaps selfish, immature, irresposible, ungrateful, etc.?

Another analogy, let’s say you receive a gift of $500 from your 90 year old grandmother that says please use this money to buy your children clothes. But instead, you use it to buy the newest smartphone. Is that ok? Or is it selfish, etc.

Just like the rich uncle gave the gift of $100,000 so you could give yourself the gift of an education; or the grandmother gave the $500 gift so you could gift your children with new clothes; God gave us the gift of sex so that we could use it to give the gift of life.

When we use contraception we are basically saying to God I’m going to accept your gift but I refuse to use it the way you want me to.

Or let’s say you ask your boss for a raise and they give it to you, and then in exchange expects you volunteer to accept more complicated projects. You accept the raise, but then hide or find excuses why you can’t take on bigger projects. Isn’t that selfish?

Wait… Here’s an even better analogy. Man buys a ring and asks his girlfriend to marry him. She replies with “I want to get married some day, but I’m sorry - I’m not ready so I cannot marry you. But I’m keeping the ring.” That’s what we are doing to God.

Point is that objectively, contraception is an act of selfishness because we are refusing to accept God’s gifts according to His will for us.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thanks for the prayers I need them, especially when I deal with therapy…

Anyhow, if people who risk there lives knowingly and the future of there existing children to have another baby despite medical advice NOT too or people with known inheritable disease, either because they have it themselves, have a child with it, etc…just so they can have a biological child and be happy, take offense too my words, that’s on them.

I actually have a cousin with PTSD (incest ) and if you ever saw the stuff they post on Facebook or Twitter, you’d think my posts are child’s play. PTSD is trauma done in the mind, we both are angry, very angry and trying to wrap our heads around why we were affected the way we were, and others were not. I might be a nurse, but I’m younger than people on this site may realize, I’m in my 20s but not far in by many years and I didn’t realize I had a problem UNTIL I was 20 years old. Before that, I repressed everything with the eating disorders and self hatred and honestly I was hoping it would go away if I distracted myself, thought positively but nope. From my posts alone, you can’t see irritable, easily startled, distracted and on edge I am when my brain won’t let go of a memory. You can’t experience the low mood and difficulty breathing and feel the chills or heaviness in my chest or the panic rising up in my body when I’m triggered. You don’t experience what’s it’s like to fight to divert your thoughts and try and force your thoughts into a different topic. You don’t see me visibly shake or start crying. I was diagnosed with OCD in high school, so I’m prone to ruminating and intrusive thoughts that don’t like to go away!

I write my posts as a way to wrap my head around and formulate my opinion about topics I do not agree with, after all everyone on these forums are posting there opinions whether or not they think they are or not. Beliefs are a persons perceptions and opinions about life and aspects in it, everyone has some beliefs too help them through life, whether it’s trust God or, I had a terrible life and the world owes me a favor and I’ll beat up anyone who gets in my way (my cousins perception sadly, there getting better though, only took 10 years of therapy).

I’m NOT a mean judgmental bully, I’m a realist and call it as I see it.

Ariel, I am going to kindly ask you to remove yourself from my thread. If you wish to further discuss your issues with the Catholic Church, please go back to your own thread. Its not fair to derail someone elses and you are being judgemental. While I may not fully agree with everything Catholicism teaches, I will not judge anothers reasons for having children.

 

[Pier]

I wasn’t sure where to pop this thread, sorry if it’s in the wrong place!

I’ve been studying Catholicism for about 2 years now (maybe longer) as well as looking at other churches also. I’m still at a point of not really knowing where I belong. I have read a lot of great books on Catholicism; Rome sweet Home, Something other than God, Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic (or its called something along those lines) , The Protestants Dilemma, Theology of the Body and many more.

I see a LOT of truth in Catholicism, so much so that I think I would struggle to attend another church; the real presence, apostolic succession, the sacraments etc however I keep hitting the same hurdles which stop me from starting a journey of becoming Catholic. I think it can be summed up in that currently I will see a truth in Catholicism, I can see where the various beliefs come from, however I still think with some things, the church pushes things too far and I lose the ability to see where that belief has come from.

1. Celibacy - I can understand where the idea of being celibate (for holy orders) comes from and that the Bible does say it’s desirable. I understand that the Bible doesn’t say a priest HAS to be married ( I’m thinking where it talks of husband of one wife etc). However even Catholics have told me it’s not a long standing belief and could be changed, so why is it needed? I can’t understand the REQUIREMENT to be celibate especially if its not long standing.
2. Contraception - I’m not against NFP, I can understand the belief behind hormonal birth control given the abortive effect. However I can’t see the problem with Condoms or Hysterectomy etc where there isn’t an abortive effect. I know the answer a Catholic will give - being open to procreation, unity etc. I just think it pushes it too far. I can’t see why God would be against something which doesn’t cause a baby to die (birth control) especially when the mothers life would be at a serious risk.
3. Mortal Sin - I agree with the Church that it is possible to lose salvation. However if a person misses church, the Church considers that a mortal sin. Again I don’t know if this pushes it too far, surely God isn’t necessarily going to condemn someone for eternity just because he/she missed church? (Unless of course they were committing a sin such as murder etc)

There are others, but they are the three main ones which I keep going around and round in circles. I’m not sure what I’m after, I have asked about individual points before. It would be interesting to hear if any other converts struggled with these? How you overcame them? General advice etc?

Jesus is the One Who said - although it is not for everyone - that there are those who would renounce marriage for the sake of God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 12)
Please keep in mind, however, that like Peter and others since, there ARE still married priests in the Catholic Church - who were married BEFORE having become Catholics, and became priests after having converted. Again…like Peter and others.

Instead of denying ourselves and being obedient to the first and greatest commandment first - the way Christ said we must in order to follow Him - artificial birth control deliberately removes God’s Will from the decision-making process on whether we will or will not conceive. (Luke 9; Matthew 16)

And, the fact that contraceptives along with birth control have been recommended to the underaged young, compromises their innocence and endangers their welfare. (Matthew 18)

In 1 John 5 we read:

“All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” (NAB)

Meaning too, that there is sin that is.

 

[ArielRussu]

Ariel, I am going to kindly ask you to remove yourself from my thread. If you wish to further discuss your issues with the Catholic Church, please go back to your own thread. Its not fair to derail someone elses and you are being judgemental. While I may not fully agree with everything Catholicism teaches, I will not judge anothers reasons for having children.

I originally responded to your thread topic, then someone responded to my post, which was unrelated to your topic, so I defended myself and my reasonings. I’m also NOT being judgmental, I call it as I see it, there is a difference between being judgmental and stating facts.

There are people who have children despite dangerous health conditions that are proud they risked there life too bring a life into the world, they carry it like a badge of honor without thinking with there head that, if I die what about my x amount of children already alive? There’s a difference between somone who gets pregnant and ends up with Life threatening problems (cancer), someone who was warned not to get pregnant again and despite taking precautions winds up with a surprise pregnancy and people who are warned not to get pregnant again who don’t listen to medical advice, say God will protect me (and He may let them live or He might just let them die) and purposely play Russian Roulette by going out and getting pregnant.

There are also people who keep having children with rare diseases because THEY the parents believe they can handle it and that the child’s life is worth it, without thinking about how the child may feel, as not everyone born with a disease is “grateful” they were. Thus, these parents place expectations on that child, thinking that the child will view there life the same way there parents do, not realizing that that child may grow up to resent them. For instance, like a person I know of with sickle cell, parents knew they carried the gene, thought there child would view there life positively despite illness, child grows up hating parents and no longer associates with them​

Anyway, Catholics don’t like contraception of any kind because they view it as frustrating the marital act. Though, honestly if you think about it, your still doing the physical act itself and separating procreation from pleasure, it doesn’t matter if you use rubber, surgery or having sex strictly on nonfertile days, all supposedly remove God from the equation as well, God is God and can make all of the above fail if He wanted. Also, abstinence for long periods basically just undermines the importance of sex in a marriage, and from what I’ve seen in my life can cause resentment and marital disfunction, especially when one spouse wants sex and the other is denying them sex.

Unless someone attacks me, this is my last post

 

[Pier]

Haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but just want to say that God is certainly aware of man’s inhumanity to man…

I certainly cannot say that I understand it, but I certainly am aware that it exists. Well, Who are we supposed to rely on first, last, and always? Who is ALWAYS there for us?

Man’s inhumanity to man is imo never understandable. However, from what I can tell, most people have experienced it to one degree or another. As Catholics, not only should we know to turn to God for everything, including such times - but also to pray for the souls of everyone, including people who are very offensive (also praying that we are not ourselves offensive)…

Keeping in mind that this is what Jesus did from the Cross.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

condoms, hysterectomies and vasectomies are wrong for the same reason that hormonal birth control is wrong.

Birth Control is a selfish act. Sex and pregnancy are both gifts from God.

Let’s imagine that a rich uncle left you in their will $100,000 with the intent that you use it for college. However, you decide that you’re not ready for college yet. But instead of saving that money until you are ready, you want to use it now to “have fun” and to enjoy and express yourself.

Is that ok? Or is it perhaps selfish, immature, irresposible, ungrateful, etc.?

Another analogy, let’s say you receive a gift of $500 from your 90 year old grandmother that says please use this money to buy your children clothes. But instead, you use it to buy the newest smartphone. Is that ok? Or is it selfish, etc.

Just like the rich uncle gave the gift of $100,000 so you could give yourself the gift of an education; or the grandmother gave the $500 gift so you could gift your children with new clothes; God gave us the gift of sex so that we could use it to give the gift of life.

When we use contraception we are basically saying to God I’m going to accept your gift but I refuse to use it the way you want me to.

Or let’s say you ask your boss for a raise and they give it to you, and then in exchange expects you volunteer to accept more complicated projects. You accept the raise, but then hide or find excuses why you can’t take on bigger projects. Isn’t that selfish?

Wait… Here’s an even better analogy. Man buys a ring and asks his girlfriend to marry him. She replies with “I want to get married some day, but I’m sorry - I’m not ready so I cannot marry you. But I’m keeping the ring.” That’s what we are doing to God.

Point is that objectively, contraception is an act of selfishness because we are refusing to accept God’s gifts according to His will for us.

I actually agree with those analogies but something still troubles me in terms of life threatening situations where women decide they shouldn’t have more children. Why would God insist they still be open to life? It would make more sense at this point that God doesn’t want them to have children?

Going back to the story the other poster mentioned. It was the earthly help that God sent that the man should have accepted. Maybe a hysterectomy is the equivalent here? In the most serious of cases, we should use the science we have been given to prevent a child God may not want us to have?

It would be like the rich uncle forbidding the child from going to college but then saying the money can only be used for college?

 

[MatthewTrainor]

This was created to prevent the family of priests from inheriting church land. There is zero biblical evidence for it. It was created out of pure political convenience for the church.

*Zero *biblical evidence? Really? Have you read Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians?
1 Cor 7:27-29:

Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that. I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them, … I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

(emphasis added)

I’m not saying that the inheritance thing didn’t play any part, but scripture clearly indicates that a celibate life is preferable to marriage especially for those who claim they wish to dedicate themselves to the Lord.

 

[Brendan]

Unless a very large ministry, Protestant preachers often work just 1-3 days per week as a minister. The rest of their time during the week is typically in the evenings or “sporadic.” What I mean by “sporadic” is that they can often have a “day job” to provide for this families and can even take preaching jobs at multiple churches (Methodists do this often)…

As an FYI, I had a co-worker who was an Orthodox priest. He didn’t work out of the same office that I did, but in OR. There are not many Orthodox there, and the Orthodox tend to operate in terms of ethnicity, so he had a small parish, about 80 families.

M-F, he did software testing, on the weekends, and occasional evenings, he operated as the parish pastor.

He eventually moved on to teach Computer Science at the High School level, something that had more regular hours that he had with us.

Such a life is not practical for a Roman Catholic priest with a parish of 500 families. Or a priest who covers multiple parishes.

One other factor is that a celibate priesthood allows the bishop to move priests to where they are most needed. That is much more difficult to accomplish if a whole family has to move; even more so if the priest (or his wife) has a ‘day job’ that he\she must now quit.

 

[Della]

I actually agree with those analogies but something still troubles me in terms of life threatening situations where women decide they shouldn’t have more children. Why would God insist they still be open to life? It would make more sense at this point that God doesn’t want them to have children?

Going back to the story the other poster mentioned. It was the earthly help that God sent that the man should have accepted. Maybe a hysterectomy is the equivalent here? In the most serious of cases, we should use the science we have been given to prevent a child God may not want us to have?

It would be like the rich uncle forbidding the child from going to college but then saying the money can only be used for college?

Poor health is a good reason to not have more children. Being open to life does not mean a woman must have babies as long as she is able to pop them out. In difficult situations a woman has recourse to her pastor and her doctors to help her determine what is best for her health.

Hysterectomy ought to be a last resort, not the first thing any woman should consider–and for reasons of health not merely to prevent conception and birth. And what child would God not want us to have? I see that as a very negative way to approach this issue since we cannot possibly know whom God wanted to be born and whom he didn’t. God is the God of fertility and abundance. Who takes joy in saying, “We prevented having a baby!” No one I know of. Who throws a party to celebrate such a thing? Rather, we celebrate having babies with parties and announcements and baptisms–and other such happy events. This does not mean that we have to have children when circumstances are too difficult to support them, but our attitude has to be one of faith and trust in God, not in ourselves alone.

The Church has no police, demands nothing we aren’t willing to give. Any decisions we make are between us and God, and our confessor, if we wish to tell him, although telling our confessor our sins and doubts is the same as telling God. Trusting in God brings about the greatest happiness in this life and the next. Drop any fears you may have and let God have all of you–it’s the only way to true peace and joy.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Poor health is a good reason to not have more children. Being open to life does not mean a woman must have babies as long as she is able to pop them out. In difficult situations a woman has recourse to her pastor and her doctors to help her determine what is best for her health.

Hysterectomy ought to be a last resort, not the first thing any woman should consider–and for reasons of health not merely to prevent conception and birth. And what child would God not want us to have? I see that as a very negative way to approach this issue since we cannot possibly know whom God wanted to be born and whom he didn’t. God is the God of fertility and abundance. Who takes joy in saying, “We prevented having a baby!” No one I know of. Who throws a party to celebrate such a thing? Rather, we celebrate having babies with parties and announcements and baptisms–and other such happy events. This does not mean that we have to have children when circumstances are too difficult to support them, but our attitude has to be one of faith and trust in God, not in ourselves alone.

The Church has no police, demands nothing we aren’t willing to give. Any decisions we make are between us and God, and our confessor, if we wish to tell him, although telling our confessor our sins and doubts is the same as telling God. Trusting in God brings about the greatest happiness in this life and the next. Drop any fears you may have and let God have all of you–it’s the only way to true peace and joy.

I understand the church allows hysterectomies for reasons of health if Contraception is not the intent but a secondary consequence but in some ways this confuses me more.

I can understand the churches position on Contraception ONLY but if Contraception is the primary intent in order to prevent a health concern, I can’t see how that’s different to the above? The health of the woman is actually the primary concern?

Which leads me back to the question I ask myself and the reason for this thread… does the Catholic Church complicate things and push it’s disciplines/doctrines too far?

 

[LethalMouse]

I understand the church allows hysterectomies for reasons of health if Contraception is not the intent but a secondary consequence but in some ways this confuses me more.

I can understand the churches position on Contraception ONLY but if Contraception is the primary intent in order to prevent a health concern, I can’t see how that’s different to the above? The health of the woman is actually the primary concern?

Which leads me back to the question I ask myself and the reason for this thread… does the Catholic Church complicate things and push it’s disciplines/doctrines too far?

Do not steal right?

Now you are in the street and someone is hit by a car gushing blood…

Nearby is a clothesline and someone grabs a few shirts to pack tbe area and curtail the bleeding…

Stealing?

No.

Same issue here. No BC but there are medical situations in which something that causes BC is needed to save a life for a seperate issue…

Same logic.

Just the theft example doesnt have social movements trying to say “all stealing is okay” whereas BC does.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Do not steal right?

Now you are in the street and someone is hit by a car gushing blood…

Nearby is a clothesline and someone grabs a few shirts to pack tbe area and curtail the bleeding…

Stealing?

No.

Same issue here. No BC but there are medical situations in which something that causes BC is needed to save a life for a seperate issue…

Same logic.

Just the theft example doesnt have social movements trying to say “all stealing is okay” whereas BC does.

So are you saying the church is OK for hysterectemy for contraceptive purposes if the preventing a pregnancy is to save a life from health problems caused by a subsequent pregnancy?

 

[LethalMouse]

So are you saying the church is OK for hysterectemy for contraceptive purposes if the preventing a pregnancy is to save a life from health problems caused by a subsequent pregnancy?

Maybe I misubderstood your question… now you have me confused.

Oh…

Disclaimer I dont claim expert in this matter

But I believe if the ONLY risk is in pregnancy then chastity is called for?

But I dont have ovaries so I have not overly looked into every medical detail of them possibly cropping up

 

[Della]

I understand the church allows hysterectomies for reasons of health if Contraception is not the intent but a secondary consequence but in some ways this confuses me more.

I can understand the churches position on Contraception ONLY but if Contraception is the primary intent in order to prevent a health concern, I can’t see how that’s different to the above? The health of the woman is actually the primary concern?

This is why any woman who is having difficulties in this area needs to consult both her priest and her doctors so she can make informed decisions that are right for her. The prohibition against contraceptives is for specific reasons having to do with deliberately defying God’s commands for all the wrong reasons. There is no monolithic answer to who can use what medications or procedures. This is where having a well-formed conscience and prudential judgment come in. As I wrote above, these questions are for the woman, her husband (marriage means sharing such things with one’s spouse), and her confessor/priest. And then it’s up to her to decide what is best for her to do.

Which leads me back to the question I ask myself and the reason for this thread… does the Catholic Church complicate things and push it’s disciplines/doctrines too far?

The answer is no because the Church has no draconian agenda to force women to do anything. She can only teach the truth. Her ministers are more than happy to help people deal with the hard decisions of life. That’s their charism, after all.

It is unproductive and the wrong way to view such matters to say that the Church is being too hard on us. It’s the same thing as saying that God doesn’t know us and doesn’t know what he’s doing. For this is God’s teaching that is being taught by his Church–she cannot do otherwise than to proclaim his truth.

God is not a hard taskmaster who demands what we cannot give and who cares nothing about us whom he loves. Everything about us is his concern–the most important being our eternal happiness, of course. He established his Church and gave her the responsibility and authority to teach his truth–in love and understanding, not like a judge or a demanding employer ready to dock us for the least infraction.