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Marie5890
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And we are talking infants here. They are not of an age when they will be watching their peers get baptized.
Also, they do not have to wait until the age of majority and then appeal to the Vatican.
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Also, they do not have to wait until the age of majority and then appeal to the Vatican.
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Padres1969
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It’s not really that hard to get. They’re using the sins and status of the parents per Mormon teaching against the children.
Given the age involved what they’re doing is not so much akin to Catholic baptism as it is the Catholic Church (or any other Christian church) theoretically denying children first communion because they have a gay parent.
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Padres1969
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No I understood your scenario perfectly. Divorced parents, one gay, the other LDS. I still don’t see the issue from a Christian perspective. Yes the Mormon church is cutting of it’s face to spite it’s nose, but if they want to undermine themselves in such a manner I say
Now I understand your concern for the child, but frankly the kid will get over it. If anything they’ll question the teachings of the LDS church more than they would otherwise, they’ll have a better shot of not being alienated from their gay parent as they would otherwise, and frankly being left out of some church events that a large number of their friends are going through is not unique nor particularly harmful. As I said, I’ve been friends with people who were taught as much about Catholicism as I was growing up, went to church with their Catholic classmates, had family situations that were contrary to Catholic teachings for various reason, they were essentially raised Catholic despite not being so… and you know what… the kids turned out just fine. Kids are far more resilient than you give them credit for.
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iepuras
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I know full well that the LDS church is false. I am a former Mormon. My family of origin is all LDS. While I know they are following a false prophet, I do not undermine my sister’s parental authority over her own children as she raises them in Mormonism. Nor does she undermine me as a parent who is raising Catholic children. I don’t think Jesus would appreciate it if I purposefully tried to drive wedges between my sister and her minor children and encourage them to disobey her and not honor her as their mother because the LDS church is false. Scorched earth tactics are generally not very effective in bringing people to Jesus.
The fall out from this continues. While this is certainly hearsay since I have heard this second hand, there are already stories circulating of a BYU student who was raised by two women who is being questioned by local church authorities regarding her relationship with her mother and partner. There is also a story of a child whose scheduled baptism was cancelled because even though the child lives with her LDS mother, her father is in a homosexual relationship with another man.
I can understand a policy that denies baptism to a child if both legal parents are in a same-sex union due to the concern that the child will actually be raised LDS. But other than that, I think this policy will cause unnecessary hardship.
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iepuras
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Not necessarily. I have adult friends in this situation and in their mid-30’s they still struggle and suffer because the LDS church encouraged their homosexual fathers to marry and have children and they were subsequently abandoned by said homosexual fathers.No I understood your scenario perfectly. Divorced parents, one gay, the other LDS. I still don’t see the issue from a Christian perspective. Yes the Mormon church is cutting of it’s face to spite it’s nose, but if they want to undermine themselves in such a manner I say
Now I understand your concern for the child, but frankly the kid will get over it. If anything they’ll question the teachings of the LDS church more than they would otherwise, they’ll have a better shot of not being alienated from their gay parent as they would otherwise,
Are you familiar with LDS culture at all? Especially in places like Utah, Idaho and Arizona? Do you know that in these places many LDS children are not permitted to play with or associate with non-LDS children or even LDS children in irregular family situations? If a young LDS man is not permitted to go on a mission because of a homosexual parent, do you know that he will have a social stigma associated with not being a return missionary and many young LDS women will shun him and refuse to date? Also, there are too many homosexual teens in Utah who are kicked out of their loving, LDS homes for coming out.
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LeavesInTheWind
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Interesting to know that other religions have restrictions on baptizing children.
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Padres1969
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Did it occur to you that this is the goal?
I mean looking at this policy, the BYU situation you mention, etc… it seems to me to be a concerted effort to exclude members who have ANY familial ties with active homosexuals. The end result being that it clears out as many as possible from the faith with any ties to homosexuality. And while that will clearly be harming certain individuals, accomplishes that goal for the greater whole. This seems a clear case of a church prioritizing the many over the good of the few because they’re so terrified of homosexuality.
(And mind you I think it’s deplorable and don’t agree with shunning anyone gay or straight (I mean I am an Episcopalian with a homosexual priest and a pair of female priests at my parish) and certainly not anyone’s children regardless of who they are or what they’ve done).
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Padres1969
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Having LDS family members I’m a fair bit familiar with it yes. My grandmother and great aunt didn’t speak to each other for the last 20 years of the latter’s life due to LDS teachings etc…
What I’m starting to have trouble understanding is your issue with this specifically. I mean this isn’t new. LDS people have been shunning non-LDS for years. They’ve been shunning people in their church who have irregular family members for years as well. This is just a furthering of that policy. Is it hurtful, absolutely, but it’s nothing new. If anything they’re now just formalizing that further. And frankly I don’t think they care that it hurts a few members of their church. Ultimately their goal is to rid the world of homosexuality. If a few poor souls get trampled on in the process… It seems their reaction would be, so be it.
Best we can do is pray the child’s LDS parent will withdraw from a church that would exclude their children in such a hurtful manner through no fault of their own.
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Horton
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I wouldn’t call it restrictions as much as conditions. I know the Catholic Church and many protestant churches don’t restrict baptism when a parent (or both) desire baptism for their child and agree to the conditions.
That is big difference from restricting baptism of a child with parents who desire baptism for that child. From I understand on this thread the LDS church is actually denying baptism even if a parent desires it for their child or the child desires it. Seems a bit counter-productive to me.
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Marie5890
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I know what it’s like to be marginalized, stigmatized. Some kids come out ok, others do not.No I understood your scenario perfectly. Divorced parents, one gay, the other LDS. I still don’t see the issue from a Christian perspective. Yes the Mormon church is cutting of it’s face to spite it’s nose, but if they want to undermine themselves in such a manner I say
Now I understand your concern for the child, but frankly the kid will get over it. If anything they’ll question the teachings of the LDS church more than they would otherwise, they’ll have a better shot of not being alienated from their gay parent as they would otherwise, and frankly being left out of some church events that a large number of their friends are going through is not unique nor particularly harmful. As I said, I’ve been friends with people who were taught as much about Catholicism as I was growing up, went to church with their Catholic classmates, had family situations that were contrary to Catholic teachings for various reason, they were essentially raised Catholic despite not being so… and you know what… the kids turned out just fine. Kids are far more resilient than you give them credit for.
You have no way of know if a kid will come out ok or not. You have no way of knowing what kind a trauma such scenerios cause.
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Padres1969
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As I said above, praying the child’s other LDS parent will withdraw themselves and the child(ren) from a church that would treat them in such a manner for something they have no control over seems to be the best thing to do.
If I came off as flippant about the situation I apologize. I may have let my family issues with the LDS church cloud my responses a bit. I understand it causes issues for the child which is deplorable, and frankly the policy seems self defeating for the LDS church if you ask me.
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Marie5890
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I agree with you. It is deplorable, and like you said, it’s a continuation of shunning that goes on.
It’s one thing when adults shun other adults.
It’s completely another when a policy encourages, or at least give ground to, the shunning, stimatizing or marginalizig of children.
I hope they revisit this and think it thru.
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iepuras
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Uh, yes. The LDS church has been going through a purge process the last few years, especially with the excommunications of Kate Kelly, John Dehlin and Rock Waterman. There are already many more people who will be resigning as a result of this policy.
The thing is that the LDS church has made certain attempts to not look so gay-unfriendly. They even said that publicly supporting same-sex marriage does not constitute apostasy and now this?
I don’t think denying baby blessings, baptism, etc to the minor children of same-sex couples affects very many people. If the LDS church meant to target this specific situation, they could have made the policy much more specific. They have plenty of lawyers to assist in doing so, but that is not what they did.
The situation with children of divorced parents with one LDS parent and one homosexual parent is the much more likely situation. Frankly, if the LDS church wants to keep the LDS parent and children in their church, this is not the way to do it.
Maybe you are right and they are trying to purge anyone with any kind of connection to homosexual persons.
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Padres1969
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Seems like they’ve decided their previous line of thinking wasn’t working, so they’ve changed to hard lining it to the extreme. What’s even more baffling to me, is what happens to those kids that they did baptize even recently who are now in that un-baptizable class of kids?
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iepuras
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Yes, or the children who are caught in between like boys who have been baptized but now cannot be ordained.
It seems like LDS leadership is doubling down on being hardliners. I do have some LDS friends who are “progressive” and have been struggling for years with regards homosexuality and gay rights. Some of them were hopeful that things would “get better” in their minds upon the death of Boyd Packer who was known as being a hardliner and “anti-gay” in the Quorum of the 12 Apostles. Even my not progressive faithful LDS friends are baffled and saddened. I have seen so much cognitive dissonance on my Facebook feed it is quite incredible and quite sad.
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gazelam
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Thanks for the prayers!!
The SL Tribune article makes the point that the LDS Church already had a similar policy toward polygamous marriages and extended the policy to include same-gender marriage.
sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3147285-155/new-mormon-policy-on-gay-families
The SL Tribune article makes the point that the LDS Church already had a similar policy toward polygamous marriages and extended the policy to include same-gender marriage.
sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3147285-155/new-mormon-policy-on-gay-families
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iepuras
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Affected persons are starting to speak out on how this affects them and their children.
kutv.com/news/local/lbgt-parent-speaks-out-after-lds-church-policy-change
kutv.com/news/local/lbgt-parent-speaks-out-after-lds-church-policy-change
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zaffiroborant
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I think that homosexual/heterosexual marriage and subsequent divorce may be found more often in the LDS church. While many religions only allow heterosexual marriage and may condemn homosexual marriage not many require marriage in order to see God in the after life, for LDS no hetero marriage no God the Father for eternity.
So while it may not be a lot of people it could be more than expected.
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zaffiroborant
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So what’s the point of that?
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Marie5890
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I dont get the comparison. Doctrinelly, polygamy still exists, even if not practised at this time. It, by LDS theolog, does exist in the afterlife. Infact I think there are a few general authorities of the 12 and FP who are sealed to more than one woman. So its not the same.
The LDS church of recent has even acknowledge that Smith had anywhere from 30-40 wives. Some of whom were still married to other men.
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