Jon, I liked your response up and until the point that I actually began reading it. Just kidding! Peace out!
My post, which you take exception to, combines numerous ideas tersely stated. Unpacking everything to see what it is I am saying is no easy task. You have brought up many points worth addressing, and I will address them, but not all in one post.* I will consider here, your last two paragraphs*. That is, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
My response is that the atheist cannot
logically base his atheism on anything the natural sciences have to say. Likewise, the theist cannot base his position as a theist on science. The reason for this is it is beyond the province and scope of the particular sciences to say anything about God. The sciences deal with physical reality, that which can be observed, measured, weighed, etc. Questions about the existence of God pertain to what is above the physical, the *meta-*physical. The scientist,
as scientist, can have nothing to say about metaphysical matters, regardless of how many topics he,
as a man, chooses to pontificate about.
Next, it cannot be reasonably asserted that lacking religious faith, whether of Christianity, Judaism, etc., that atheism is the default option. This is seen to be true according to the words of the Apostle Paul when he stated the following in regard to the pagans:
“
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. Rom. 1:18-20”
Clearly, those who have never heard God’ Revealed message, can know that God exists, and can even know the Divine moral law because it is written in the heart:
“
For when the Gentiles who do not have the Law by nature observe the prescriptions of the Law, they are a Law for themselves even though they do not have the Law.They show that the demands of the Law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. Rm. 2:12-16”.
The law of God written on the hearts of men, is called “natural law” or “natural moral law”. One can find many references to this law in pagan literature. For example, Heraclitus, the ancient Greek philosopher, who seems to be known only for his ideas about change, refers to the
immutable law common to all:
"
W**isdom is the foremost virtue, and wisdom consists in speaking the truth, and in lending an ear to nature and acting according to her. Wisdom is common to all…They who would speak with intelligence must hold fast to the —wisdom that is common to all, as the city holds fast to its law, and even more strongly. For all human laws are fed by one divine law." (Heraclitus of Ephesus; 536-470 B.C.)
In reard to the natural law, St. Augustine says, “What else are the laws of God written in our hearts but the very Presence of the Holy Ghost?” (
Concerning the Spirit and the Letter, 24).
Additionally, Rufinus in the 12th century said, “
Thus natural law is a certain quality —vis planted in mankind by nature, which leads men to do what is good and to avoid what is evil. Natural law consists of three parts, namely, commands, prohibitions, and demonstrations. It commands men to do what is useful, as Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God; it forbids that which is harmful, as: Thou shalt not kill; and it points out what is expedient, as: all things should be held in common, there should be one liberty for all mankind, and so forth.” (
Summa Decretorum, D. I. Dict. Grat. ad cap. I).
For you to be logically consistent with what you have about me doing a grave disservice to the faithful, etc, you must also assert the same criticism of St. Paul, who says pagans and Gentiles have knowledge of God and his moral law. Oh, and what about St. Augustine who implies that the Holy Spirit is present to the pagans?
Enough said here to prompt one to begin considering how atheism relates to the pagan’s knowledge of the existence of God and His moral law. In my original post one must also consider the relationship of this natural knowledge to the innate desire for the “good in general”. Now, my next post will address in more detail your consternation about my use of the word “faith”.
itinerant1:tiphat:
